Let's really "re-hash" the ROOKIE debate.

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Posted By: leon

I actually kiss them too.... AND I just hope I remember your face next time you knock on my door at home. I was so embarrassed. I will never forget that.....I know we had only met once before but still.....Talk to ya soon....btw, you need to hook me up with our IT purchasing dept .....

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Earliest card is always very cool to gaze upon, but has its own problems.....does the player's image need to be in sports uniform, or are portraits ok (aka N172 Anson)? And if portraits are ok, at what point do you establish that the person was engaged in their playing career such that it was not just 'school' ball, or other organized adolecent activities, or a family snap? If Cobb is captured at 14 in the card recently posted - showing him with other older players just pre his professional career, what exactly do we call that card? At what point does a family pic. become a baseball card worthy of being called their first?
I would personally go with minor league prookie as being the earliest possible legitimate 'playing' card, and would be happy if it were recatagorized as in fact rookie. If no such image exists, then their first professional card would be the rc. Anything earlier is just a way cool image in my eyes.

And just to throw in again on the ageless slabbed/raw debate.....I've often thought that each side should be very happy the other exists, and celebrate both styles of collecting. Raw collectors make it possible to re-aquaint yourself with a card's living history in all its mustiness, and understand what it is to be a card. And Slab collectors act as curators for those same cards so that they may exist and be known by future generations. It can't be argued that the process of handling cards raw causes degrading of the paper itself, acids get into the stock which further break them down, surface flakes and wears, and the possibility of major tragedy such as tearing or complete loss much more likely while being passed around through older and younger hands. Being encased in plastic for me is much like putting a great vintage poster under uv protected glass and archived with the best acid free mounts. You get to still enjoy the image and lose yourself in its glory, but realize at the same time the importance of saving the remaining examples of original printings because they are so very special.....and they're still small enough to be easily palmed, turned around so that every suface is visible, and enjoyed - really!
Don't raw collectors want at least a few examples of each card in every issue protected thus, so that kids in 50 years time have the same opportunity to own and daydream about the game, the players, and history in general? Or if you can't have them raw, should no one be allowed to have them at all?


Daniel

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Posted By: jeffdrum

To think or imply (and no one has, I don't think) that someone who "collects" graded cards is less of a collector than someone who only collects raw; to me is like saying someone is less of an accountant because he uses a calculator.

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Posted By: peter chao

Daniel,

I agree with you why not collect both slabbed and raw rookie cards. All we need to do is give each side a denigrating name and people will avoid being solely slabheads or Puritans (raw card collectors).

Peter

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I always considered Exhibit cards to be trading cards. Excluding the argument about size, there were sold to the general public as collectibles.

I don't have a problem with someone calling an overtly commercial/collectible postcard as a trading card. Many postcards have advertising and/or were sold as collectibles. Others were not.

Some collectors place size limits on what is a baseball cards, and, thusly, exclude postcards and Exhibit cards. However, some 1800s trade cards and modern baseball cards approach postcard size (jumbo refractors). Most collectors call the 1964 Topps Giants baseball cards.

Defining baseball cards in the field involves subjectivity, ala 'I know a baseball card when I see one.' With a Milwaukee Brewers Miller Beer beer coaster, most would say it's not a baseball card even though it's cardboard and rectangular. The common reasoning for it not being a baseball card would be, "Because it's a beer coaster, and beer coasters aren't trading cards." Most hobbyists, from Bill Mastro to a 17 year old Upper Deck collector, would agree with the verdict and reasoning.

And the standard explanation for a stamp not qualifying as a trading card? Either "Because it's a stamp" or "Because it isn't."

I'm sure many people who don't consider postcards baseball cards know that they're rectangular and made out of card board, but simply don't feel they qualify trading cards. They likely consider them nice and collectible, but something different than trading cards. To me, postcards are borderline. Whether I consider them baseball cards depends on the postcard and the time of day.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I love the slabs.

I prefer having everything slabbed.

not for the grades... which for the most part I don't care much about.

but - the slab is nice and neat, and allows me to toss a big $$$ card to my kids without cringing as they look at the card.

its better than a screw down!

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Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

But would you want your kids to start calling you a slabhead instead of Daddy.

Peter

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey JeffDrum...

I love analogies. But realistically, NOTHING is like anything else.

I've often thought that if I did what I was best at, it would be to teach mathematics. I have a knack for math, loved my two calculus classes in college. I taught college once, but not math...

I can see that an accountant that uses a calculator may be no less of an accountant than one who doesn't. But the one who uses a calculator may well have less honed math skills than the accountant who uses pencil and paper, or does it all in his head. And a collector who collects raw cards, one who is able to identify cards and ascertain their authenticity, he may well know a bit more about cards than a few of the collectors who only collect slabbed cards and rely on what graders tell them about what they have, knowing not for certain themselves. Not always, but sometimes.

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Posted By: jeffdrum

I have never taught math but I did teach Logic for two years @ Memphis State in the mid-80's when I was in grad school. Great fun to see the light go on in the students faces after working through a problem.

You may be right; nothing may be like anything else. But I doubt that all collectors of graded cards collect because they are reliant on someone elses opinion in regards to authenticity. I myself have many cards graded and non-graded. I like the way they look, stack and the protection that the "slab" offers. But most of my cards that are slabbed were bought raw and submitted by me. I still buy most of my cards raw to this day. I am by no means an expert but I am self reliant.

Collecting is great either way.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

It is the collecting that is great... yes, sir.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff, Frank, guys,

The solution is simple collect both and avoid being called a slabhead or a puritan. Do any of you guys want to do a presentation at the National on how slabheads and puritans have ruined the hobby and collectors should join hands and celebrate the hobby.

Peter

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Posted By: jeffdrum

I do collect both............and you can call me anything you want.
My advice, try to find a more entertaining speaker than myself.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Peter,

Thank you for the offer...

I'll work on Jeff, will try to get him to agree for us to jointly speak, half seminar half discussion panel. We'd need limo to airport, 1st class round trip, limo to hotel, obviously a suite, per diem, honorarium, and some really interesting slabbed and unslabbed cards to have as door prizes... maybe a slabbed 1990 Griffey Jr, a raw Cobb green portrait, a slabbed 1988 Nolan Ryan, a raw Old Judge cabinet... you get the idea.

Work on a package and I'll convince Jeff to do it.


Oddly enough, I've considered buying a slabbed T200 a few times. I don't have one of the little ones, and I've wanted one as a type card. Buying a raw one in person isn't so difficult for a puritan, but on eBay some of the raw ones I've wondered about... and therein is one of the two great beauties of slabbing. Another is that if I get a card slabbed it will sell better.

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Posted By: peter chao

Frank,

Your too expensive, we can probably get Barry to emcee at the National for less.

But seriously, all this controversy over the definition of a Rookie Card is probably helpful to the card market. If Joe D. has two or three possible rookie cards then hobbyists can get excited over 2-3 cards instead of just 1.

Peter

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I do not see any of this as subjective, borderline, nor open to interpretation. To me, an item is either a card, or it is not. If you hold it by its edge, and it does not support its own weight, it is not a card. Good bye Mello Mint, Dietsche, bread labels and other pieces of paper.

In order to be a rookie card, the card must depict a player after he has made it to the Majors. Good bye Zeenuts, Obaks, and other minor league issues.

The '52 Topps Mantle is fine, but it is his Topps rookie.

Beer coasters, like Dixie Lids are cards, as are blotters and anything which meets the rigidity criteria above. This definition does not require the materials of construction to be primarilly cellulose, but allows plastic, metal and other card materials.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I hate to keep going back to Beckett's definition, but what I like about it is that it's clear-cut and easy to apply. People may not agree with it but it is easy to understand.

In order for a card to be a card there must be a copyright date on it, otherwise, the card is subject to being reproduced at a later date. Also, the card should be approved by MLB. And finally, it should be nationally distributed by a known baseball card manufacturer. So the Post Cereal cards should be considered cards.

Peter

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well I think that definition is crap...


The T206 Wagner doesn't have a copyright date on it, so that's why it is copied and reproduced... That would not dare happen with a 1933 Goudey card of Dizzy Dean, no reprints of it 'cause it has a date and copyright. Right...

Goudey Gum cards weren't approved by MLB, 'cause MLB didn't exist back then...

Nationally distributed, nonsense. Fred McMullin's rookie card in my mind is his ZeeNut card. No national distribution there.

And lord only knows who the true manufacturer of the ZeeNut card was... I understand ZeeNuts distributed them, but who printed them??

Frank.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

"People may not agree with it but it is easy to understand."

Well, I guess that settles that. As long as it's easy to understand, you know.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I see your point.

Easy to understand but inadequate is better than too complicated for 5th graders to understand.

(Now before someone flies off at that 5th grade jab, "5th" grade is the point set by that new TV show, and my Mom taught 5th grade. When I was 7 she treated me like a 5th grader, when I was 17 she treated me like a 5th grader...)

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Posted By: jeffdrum

Well if you are comfortable saying that the 1933 Goudey is Babe Ruth's rookie then Beckett is the way to go. If comfort and not being taken seriously is what you're after, then Beckett may be the way to go.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff,

In a way it doesn't matter what we think about Beckett's definition anymore. A couple of weeks ago I was looking at a '33 Goudey Mel Ott holding a bat and the dealer said that the '33 Goudey was considered a rookie. Of course, he was referring to Beckett's definition.

Peter

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Posted By: VTRon

Naturally we all have opinions, so I'll add mine.

Many opinions on what constitutes a "true rookie" card are self-serving, being that the person owns the card and wants to have rookie card value associated with it.

If a sport card is part of a multi-card set of the same sport, and it is the first time a certain player is featured in such a set, and the set is 'generally available to anyone', that would be my definition of a rookie card, whether the set is licensed or not by MLB, NBA or otherwise.

This doesn't mean the rookie card would be the most valuable card of a particular player. There may have been other cards issued prior to such a set that could be more valuable. That would depend on supply and demand.

I did say multi-card set of the same sport because multi-sport sets would not likely feature most/all players of the same sport. Neither by this definition would cards issued for one particular team only be regarded as containing rookie cards.

Add your opinions.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Before you consider what constitutes a rookie card (umm I may be a little late here), shouldn't you consider "why collect them in the first place"?

Afterall: why would anyone care? Now I could certainly understand collecting a player's final card (if there was such a thing) which was issued immediately following his last season. And showed his lifetime stats.

But I remember rookie cards from the 50s. Nobody wanted them! Who was Aaron in '54? Clemente the following year? Nobody! Now a Musial, Williams, Mays, and lots of others - they were sought actively. But rookie cards were cards which you wanted to get rid of. And I still do.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

and that is exactly what dealers were thinking when they invented the "Rookie Card" and it helped to sell a lot of cards.

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Posted By: Frank C

Great topic, good enough to lure me out of lurkdom...

Funny this came up, I had recently decided to put together a HOF rookie collection, and was struggling with these very same issues in compiling my HOF rookie master list. After all the debate here, I may just have to scrap the idea altogether. But it really bugs me that there is no definitive and widely accepted definition of 'rookie'! (or 'card', for that matter).

I think I'm just gonna go back and continue my slow climb of the Monster...

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Posted By: Anonymous

Hal Lewis probably has a pretty good list of HOF rookie cards, even though his definition of "card" is wrong and I would always prefer a Baltimore News Ruth to the M101.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Gee, I am surprised that this old thread has been reprised. Anyhow, I just wanted to say it was great meeting and talking with you,
Scott, and Leon at booth #542 last week. I already knew Jay, and it's always great seeing and chatting with him.

Collecting "rookie" cards for me is an incidental thing, as they just happen to be part of any given set that I am trying to complete.

TED Z

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Frank:

I can provide you with a pretty good list of HOF RC's if you would like.

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Posted By: Frank C

Phil,

Yes the list would be great. E-mail fcastro@zoominternet.net.

thanks

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Posted By: Jason L

Gil, please feel free to send me all your rookie cards that you do not want!

Phil,
If you have such a list of HOFer RCs, could I be so bold as to tag along with the same request?
Please send to leinbergeranz@yahoo.com if not too much trouble
Thanks in advance!
Jason L

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Posted By: Dan Paradis

Phil has a great book listing (with illustrations) each HOF'er's RC. We may not all agree with his definition of RC, but it's a great place to start. It seems like this would be the forum to promote your book Phil?? I love the book and review it every time I bid on a RC.

Dan

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Thanks a lot, Dan. I'm glad you are enjoying the book and using it as a useful resource tool!!!

I am presently working on an updated version of the book with many new items that I have added to my collection over the last year when I published that book and hope to have something out by December. Unlike many collectors who upgrade their collection by card condition, I focus on obtaining a piece that pre-dates my earliest item of a particular player and then typically sell that item in order to afford my next purchase.

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Posted By: Dan Paradis

Phil, that's exactly what I do. It seems to be getting more difficult (and a lot more expensive) lately to get a vintage HOF RC card!! Are there a lot of collectors who collect just HOF RC (as opposed to collecting sets)???

Dan

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Ted,

It was great meeting you on Friday. Thanks for your time to discuss the '49 Leaf set. It was a real pleasure.


As for rookie cards, I consider a rookie "card" as a player's first issue, regardless of postcard, baseball card, or other. I suppose it's all in the definition of "card."

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Posted By: peter chao

In Topps Allen and Ginter 2007, there's a Jack the Ripper Rookie Card.

Peter C.

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Posted By: dennis

i define a rookie card as the 1st image (with his name) of a player on cardboard. very simple.