My two-cents on "The Card"...boy did I enjoy it

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Go F*ck yourself.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Sheesh have a sense of humor already!

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Posted By: barrysloate

What's going on here?

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

I am excited about UFC 71 tomorrow night but this is a real nice warm up.

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Posted By: Zinn

Danno...lighten up Bud.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

maybe the better questions are how many here really want to know the truth about the card and of those, is it just a point of interest or curiosity or would it affect your view of the hobby in any meaningful respect?

Seriously, it should not be that difficult to get to the truth here. The witnesses are still alive, it is not some government secret, and a thorough factual investigation would be at least persuasive if not conclusive. There are enough lawyers on this board to know that threats of legal action by Mastro lack substance, if any have even been made. Defamation cases are very difficult to prove, juries hate them, truth is a defense, and Mastro would have to prove damages. Once that door is open, baby, any and all horror stories about Mastro's business practices are fair game if "business reputation" is alleged to have suffered as a result of the Wagner "story". Who wants that potential dirty laundry scrutinized? So maybe these star witnesses are not coming forward because they have nothing? Either way and again, the truth should be out there and the issue capable of being decided if it really is something that people want to know, which leads me back to my initial question.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

So much so ... dat it begs da question.

Letz change da forum title from VBC. (pre Iraqi war)
to:

"Barry's Lil skoolhows on da prayery."

Letz consider any baseball talk az off topic, AKA OT.

OT iz nott to be confused wit Ova Time, sometin dat iz now needed to pay for da gaz.

From now on, dis furum will be a spellin and gramma furum.

Anywun caught talkin baseball, will be banned, barred and banishid ... in utter woids. ... kicked off.

Now dat dis furum has found its tru identity, where wil all da baseball brain pickas go to now?

Wil dey be replased by spellin and gramma brain pickas?

Woist yet, watz gonna happen to da investa Slabheads?

Dis iz da bess pre war tread ehva........

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Buy the card for $3 million, then you will have standing to bring a lawsuit and to compel people to testify under oath.

Seriously, you are right, but on the flip side what is anyone's affirmative incentive to come forward?

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Posted By: Zinn

Why not have Rob step forward and post a $100,000 reward to whomever can provide incontrovertible proof that the Wags was trimmed?

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Posted By: Joann

If it were to come out that this card was altered, and worse yet that it was known to be altered when graded and during early sales, at what point does fraud come into play? And who would be on the hook for it?

There are now literally millions of dollars in play. For anyone in the chain of ownership, it seems clear that the best and only course is to defend authenticity to the end. The second anyone really admits that it's not as represented, a whole lot of financial dominoes will start falling. Crashing, actually.

Which buyer will be the first to allege fraud? None. Because that just messes up their resale and investment. So everyone in the chain is going to shut the heck up no matter what he believes. Maybe Alan Ray - who may be the only person that sold it without misrepresentation. He or Sevchuk (sp?). Everyone else has a keen interest in maintaining that it is a legit 8.

And no one else, only the buyers, can do anything legally because no one else has standing.

So ... to the legal beagles on the board, who would be on the hook for fraud? And who (subjectively) can or should bring that up?

Joann

PS - I've just started reading it, so it's too early to ring in with much of an opinion. But the writing style is fairly dramatic, as dull baseball card books go. One of the first things discussed is how nice Bill Mastro was to O'Keefe until the questions started. Then Mastro wouldn't return calls, and it seems pretty clear that there is some kind of grudge there. My early take? The guy genuinely and enthusiastically set out to investigate and write about a truly magnificent scam. But when he couldn't get all the pieces together - couldn't get people to go on record with what they knew - he put together a book anyways. With no before and after pictures, it's hard to imagine that it will get very far.

But so far I like it. After three years of reading almost nothing except law school casebooks, I am happy just to read something with large print, double spaced, and butt-simple flow. It don't take much with me these days!

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Posted By: calleocho

how many other books have been written about a single baseball card?

no other card is more well known by the general public or the collecting one for that matter...probably the most talked about here on the board as well.

This book instead of hurting the prestige of the card it has helped to cement its place as the holy grail of all baseball cards.

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Posted By: larry

This is a very humerous thread...mainly because there is really nothing that can be gained by either critcizing the book or complimenting the book....
It has some accuracy, and some non-accuracy, I know both Mr. Lifson and Mr. Mastro well, we were all good friends back in the "good old days of the hobby" and there is no way either of them are evil doers nor saints.
Actually they are both very talented and knowledgable, personable individuals. Both have vibrant and distinct personalities, and they amassed 30-40+ years of first hand experience and depth of knowledge during their careers in this industry. Unfortunately life changes may have deteriorated their friendship, plain and simple.


PSA can NEVER admit that the card possibly has been tainted and do not think for a minute that if there was this " blatant proof" available, PSA would still say the card IS ORIGINAL and probably has some guarantee in place to the purchaser. They have to "INSURE" the authenticity of the card and protect the investment. The CARD has more value now than ever due to its "dna" and of the history it has created. The legend that has been propelled exceeds the legendary Wagner himself, and is further fueled by all of us, Mr. O'Keeffe, Rob L, Bill M, Mr. Gretzky, David Hall, Bob Sevchuck, Joe Orlando, B. Siegel, Mike Gidwitz etc.. and the many others that have been part of the story...

The cornerstone of the hobby is a reflection of society today, it is the saga we seem never to get tired of, and it is the untold story not THE card that will keep its value soaring. Furthermore, PSA will make sure of that or they will inevitably own it.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Would anyone who has seen the card care to comment on its appearance? From the pictures I have seen a couple of the corners look flared, but I know pictures are not reliable.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I'm heading off to Las Vegas to check the local bookstore to see if they have The Card (sure, no way I'll step into a bookstore). Anyway, have a good Memorial Day Weekend.

Just remember that good soldiers have died protecting democracy...let's truly hope that Congress and the Prez get their act together.

Peter

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Huh?

Anyone know if Peter C has internet access while in Vegas or do we get the weekend off?

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Well, I just finished it and I have to say I was hoping for more of an investigative approach. There are a number of angles that could have been developed further but were not. It was not a bad read despite some very strange grammatical errors but it seems like nothing was resolved.

I was pleased to see I own 2 of the top 30 or so cards listed in the appendix.

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Posted By: George H. Counter

Jay Miller said:

"My experience with Bill Mastro has only been positive. I consider him to be a good guy, someone who has helped build the hobby to where it is today, and, most importantly to me,a friend."

Jay, I'm sure Bill has been very good to you...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/WHAT+IS+THE+KEELER+ROOKIE

A Priceless piece!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

George, that is truly a hilarious thread. I wish I had best friends like Bill Mastro to secretly fix my torn cards and pass them off as minor restorations!

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Posted By: Mark Evans

I enjoyed the book and think that, while flawed, it makes a contribution to the hobby because it details the history of the Wagner card, I assume for the first time in a mainstream publication. I also assume the story to be true, in essence, at least until someone involved provides a contradictory account in a public forum.

The other information provided -- a brief history of cards, grading services, sports memorabilia auctions, and Honus himself -- likely appears elsewhere but is worthy of inclusion in this book, in my view, as it puts the story in context.

The significant downside of the book, in my opinion, is its underlying theme that fraud pervades the hobby. This strikes me as overstated for dramatic effect. Also, the authors' support for the Cobb/Edwards card appears ill-informed and misguided.

Finally, the authors appear to respect the expertise of this Board, which is mentioned numerous times and makes me think I'm not totally wasting my time in lurking.

Hope to see all at the National. Mark

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Posted By: peter chao

Mark,

Your posting on the wrong thread. This is the side-tracked, The Card, thread. Please don't post anything relevant to the book.

Peter