PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?

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Posted By: T206Collector

Look, it's obvious you do not respect my opinion. But I think you must respect Scot Reader's opinion. And he said in Inside T206:

"Like them or not, professional authentication and grading services will increase longterm demand for T206 cards. This seems unavoidable for at least two reasons. First and foremost is that T206 cards slabbed by reputable services are substantially less likely to be fakes relative to ungraded examples. The reduced risk of "getting had" by unscrupulous sellers will enlarge the buyer pool and increase the prices paid for T206 specimens over the long haul. Second, reputable services will largely eliminate problems of grade inflation and deflation. Gone will be the days when a collector will
buy a card advertised as "mint" from one dealer only to be told later that the card is merely "excellent" by another (or worse, the same) dealer. While imperfect, the more objective grading system afforded by professional authentication and grading services will reduce risks for prospective T206 buyers and thereby spur demand. Set registration promoted by authentication and grading services also adds a competitive dimension to collecting that was previously absent. The desire to have "the best" or a "top ten" set on the T206 set registry hosted by any of the major services may drive an ever-increasing number of collectors into an acquisition frenzy, stimulating demand."

My biggest point is his second point -- grade inflation/deflation. That is all I have been trying to say all along here.

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Posted By: PC

Paul -- you've fallen in to the trap of trying to deal squarely with Ted. The mistake is made when someone expects Ted to be consistent in his views, opinions or the way he talks to or treats people.

Ted asks questions, but he doesn't really want to hear your views. He only wants you to agree with him, or to argue with you if you do not. Reasonable, civil explanations of one's position are pretty much a waste of time and energy.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...if true.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL

Do you know this guy...."PC" (PC-T206)....I don't, but he thinks he knows me.

Is he the token Net54 "resident amateur psychologist" ?

Hey look, whatever your name is......

Paul and I have our differences in our collecting habits. He likes his cards in plastic;
and, I prefer mine "naked". Paul and I have made some really nice T206 trading and
selling between us these past few years, despite our differences.

So, if you have nothing positive to contribute....stay off this Thread.

TED Z

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Posted By: Joann

I don't think it is true.

I think this thread has been a great example of a civil and respectful exchange of differing views, with both Paul and Ted being very courteous in their views - at least the later parts of the thread. I haven't gone back to reread the earlier parts, but the exchange today has been just what this forum is about.

Joann

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Posted By: barrysloate

PC- while you are entitled to your opinion we have a board rule that you can't do that type of thing anonymously. You attacked Ted without revealing your name. That's kind of a cheap shot.

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Posted By: dennis

with the oc and the rounded corner this card should grade VG+.
it is a fair statement that a graded slabbed card graded ex should have 4 square cornes,wear on them but still square,no creases and centering at least 25/75 all the way around. a buyer should be able to purchase an ex 5 slab sight unseen and EXPECT this. this is what slabbing should be. i find it funny that anyone who buys only slabbed cards and pays a premium for them would expect any less.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"a buyer should be able to purchase an ex 5 slab sight unseen and EXPECT this"

One should NEVER buy an ex 5 slab sigh unseen. As I have said before, grading is like a pyramid -- all 10's should look alike, but the further down the scale you go, you have lots of variation about what a card could look like. Indeed, a 1 could be a 1 for a zillion different reasons. Two 5's could be quite different -- i.e., graded 5's for different reasons.

This card looks like a 5 to me for reasons that I think other people don't want their 5's to look -- oc and with mild corner wear. I still think the Evers card's corners come to a point and the OC is within acceptable for the 5 grade. Is it a blazer? Of course not. Is it consistent within the grade of 5 or 60 by SGC? I think quite so.

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Posted By: dennis

if you took that card out of that holder,i don't think anyone would grade it ex......i would imagine if it were cracked out and resubmitted (to psa)it would grade vg. imo

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Posted By: T206Collector

Now that's just being silly. An OC T-206 card with mildly rounded corners would reasonably qualify for VG-EX, to be sure, but VG? C'mon now.

I'll pay you VG prices for every creaseless T206 card you have with corners like that Evers. Tell me where to send the check...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I really appreciate your judgement and ability to understand a situation.

Earlier in this Thread, your post (3/10....noon) accurately and succintly summarized my initial com-
ments regarding the unexpected pitfalls of acquiring graded cards over the Internet. Most of the
graded card purchases are satisfactory. But, there are those occasional ones, that....as you said....
can be quite frustrating.
And, the Evers card was one of the instances. Anyhow, I then tried to be "fair and balanced" in
this thread by noting the Cicotte card and how pleased I was with that purchase.

However, as much as I hate to say it there are some who strictly live by graded cards;
and, show no tolerance for those who prefer un-graded cards.

I still haven't gotten an answer to my question.....how did these guys collect BB cards,
prior to the Grading Card Era ?

Thank you, Joann

TED Z

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Posted By: dennis

that card has 3 mildly worn corners and 1 round corner. if it had 4 mildly worn corners i would agree it would grade ex (the oc is ok)but that 1 corner is round. maybe ted could scan just that corner,maybe it's not as round as i think it appears.

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Posted By: PC

Barry -- I disagree. I don't think any cheap shot was thrown here. I've had run-ins with Ted on this forum before on at least two prior occassions. Nothing new here. And I do not think there's anything controversial going on in this thread that requires posting differently, unless the mods tell me otherwise.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...in my post entitled "Just listen to yourself." In light of this, it is unbelievable to me that you would state you have not gotten an answer to your question -- especially since I have posted numerous questions to you that have gone completely unanswered.

It would be helpful if you would read my responses to your questions and answer my questions as well. If you cannot address my points then there is no discussion, just two people writing text. Your arguments have been wholly unpersuasive in the face of the evidence of graded cards and auction links I have provided.

Scot Reader's Inside T206 section that I quoted above is sufficient for me on the graded card inquiry -- indeed, he answered your question much more eloquently than I could. I'll rest on those statements and the ones I've made above that have heretofore been totally ignored by Ted.

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Posted By: barrysloate

PC- I think you missed my point. You just need to identify yourself if you have a personal issue with someone. Once you do that, you are free to express any opinion you wish.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Perhaps I haven't responded to all your points. After a while all this "verbiage" becomes quite
tedious. Too much talk and little action. I rather be talking trades or T206 deals, like we have
transacted in the past.

Did you know that T206 "Bull" Durham card you traded me with the Sweet Cap 350/25 back has
never been seen since ?

I have Durham with all the possible backs....except HINDU. I don't think anyone knows if it exists.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

...but SGC wouldn't grade it. (-;

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I still haven't gotten an answer to my question.....how did these guys collect BB cards,
prior to the Grading Card Era ?

Ted, of course my cards were raw then. I had a fantastic [I thought], complete near-mint 1957 Topps Baseball set that I had built over the years from reputable dealers and card shows. Unfortunately, as I learned more about my cards, I found that many of them had flaws, defects and subtle areas of alteration. That really bothered me. My beautiful Mickey Mantle card had rebuilt corners and my sharp Bob Clemente was really sharp...as in trimmed. I thought a magnifying glass and a bright light were enough...they weren't.

As a collector, I prefer high end items and I learned a very expensive lesson from that set. Now I limit my purchases to PSA and SGC cards. They offer me the best chance of having an authentic item which has not been altered and bears a rating which [in most cases] accurately reflects the condition of the card.

I collect for fun, not investing. I won't sell my cards. Someday, however, my daughter will own my collection and she will sell it. I don't want her to have any problems when she sells. For that reason too, I only buy graded cards.


Frank

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL

I think you told me.....but, I don't recall....why ?

TED Z

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Posted By: cmoking

A test needs to be made to bring closure to this thread.
Ted should send both the Cicotte and the Evers to SGC...and the results will bring closure to this whole discussin. Ted, send them to SGC, and then let us know what grades you got, and then crack them out again for your collection. How much is that going to cost? $30? I'll pony up $3 to fund Ted's experiment. I'm sure 10 other guys would pony up $3 each just to see the results. Maybe the Evers comes back a 60 and the Cicotte a 30. Wow, would that be interesting? Or maybe the Evers comes back a 40 and the Cicotte a 60. That would be even more interesting.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I agree....this thread has gone beyond its usefulness.

As I have noted, I "freed" Cicotte....and, in my humble opinion this card is at least, an Ex card.
Which happens to be a grade better than GAI gave it.

The Evers I will leave in its plastic for now. Should I find another (Vg to Ex) in the near future,
graded or naked....I'll then sell this one.

While, I appreciate your suggestion, I'm tired of playing this game. I didn't acquire these cards to
prove a point. These 2 cards are "milestones" 370 & 371 of a long journey to mile-marker 404.....
to complete a T206 set comprised of all Sovereign's.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

...is also a trimmed Durham. Top border, if I recall correctly...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL

Thanks for reminding me about the Durham SC 350/25 card.

It is inserted in a nice comfortable mylar (15-pocket) sheet of plastic in my T206 "subset" Album
containing all my Durham cards.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

...will always (until I get an upgrade) available for your viewing pleasure here:

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28538&usetid=1015

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I realize this thread is winding down, but I thought I'd just respond to the question of how I bought vintage cards before grading, since it's a relevant question and a good one.

I've been collecting on and off since the late 70s. I discovered vintage cards and began buying T206s in the early 80s. At that time I was young, and bought all my cards from shows and card shops. I managed to accumulate whatever vintage cards I could that way, which, due partially to my budget and partially to a lack of supply, amounted to a few dozen T206s and M116s.

As my budget started to grow a little, I started finding ways to buy cards online. Initially I rejected the concept of third-party grading, because it seemed absolutely silly to me to send a card I owned to a company who would then tell me what condition it was in. I already KNEW what condition my cards were in.

But I started to see a pattern: I'd buy a card described as EX, and receive a VG card. Then I'd bring an EX card to a dealer to try and sell it or make a trade, and be told it was only VG. It seemed like my cards were one condition when I was buying them, and another condition when I was selling them.

Furthermore, I made a few purchases over eBay where I received cards in the mail that were distinctly different from the way they were described. I still remember paying for a large lot of 1953 Topps cards that were described as Near Mint, and receiving six Near Mint cards and a pile of VG-EX cards - the scan was very artfully done so that the Near Mint cards were visible, but all the others were not as clear.

The internet was a mixed blessing. It was great, because it gave me access to cards that would previously take months - or years - to find. Something like building a T205 set would have been something I'd NEVER have tried before the internet, because I would have had to search forever to find the cards. Last year I started a T205 set, and I'm about 40% done - and I probably could have had it complete if I wasn't working on so many other card-related projects at the same time, and trying to balance my expenses between them all.

The internet also gave me the ability to SELL my cards for a much higher price than before. Before, if I wanted to sell a card, I'd either have to bring it to a dealer and have him downgrade the condition of my cards and then offer me 50% of "book", or I'd have to try and find someone who was willing to buy it at a higher price. At one point I needed money quickly, and I sold a giant binder of cards from my childhood collection for $400 - cards that would have sold for ten times that if eBay existed at the time. Now, I could sell my cards to actual collectors who were willing to pay a price that was closer to what I paid in the first place. Sometimes even more.

At the same time, the internet made it easy for me to buy overgraded - or altered - or fake - cards, with very little recourse. If someone sold me a trimmed T206 or a fake N card, all I could really do was leave negative feedback for the seller- IF I bought the card on eBay. And when I had a seller tell me "That's not the card I sold you - I sold you an authentic card, and the card you're showing me is an obvious reprint," I basically stopped buying cards.

With grading, I've now got a third-party opinion. I know that if I buy an SGC 40, I can feel reasonably confident that most of the time I'm getting a card that I would describe as VG. Sure, there will be times I disagree - once in a while I get an overgraded card, and once in a while I get an undergraded card. But I can also buy a lot more cards than I could before because they're more available, and I can feel more comfortable buying higher-dollar cards based only on a scan. More importantly, I can build a type card set - something I've always wanted to do - without having to learn everything there is to know about every card issue BEFORE I buy one. In other words, I don't have to learn all about how to tell if an N28 is authentic and unaltered just so I can buy ONE for my type set.

Grading also gives me a serial number. So nobody can ever claim that the card I'm showing them is not the one they sold me. If the cert numbers match, it's the same card.

Grading also prevents - most of the time - someone from telling me that although the card was "EX" when they sold it to me, it's now "VG" when I'm trying to sell it back, or make a trade. And if I decide to sell a card, the buyer can also feel reasonably confident in what he's getting from me.

As ancillary benefits, the slab also gives me a way of protecting my cards that's much more durable than a card saver or a binder. I'm clumsy. I have shaky hands. I've dinged corners of cards just by holding them. When they're in a slab, I can't do that.

I also like the way cards look in slabs. The slabs look like frames. With my type card set, they're all different shapes and sizes - small, skinny T and E cards; fat, square R cards, large rectangular Topps issues. When I display them raw, it looks like a mess. Now, I have them all in SGC holders, lined up on shelves in order of when they were inducted in the HOF. When I sit in my office, I'm sitting right in the middle of my cards, and I can look at a few hundred of them up on my wall - they're all different shapes and sizes, but the holders tie them all together and they look great.

I even started a few registry sets - and met some dynamite people who collect the same sets as me as a result.

So that's the long and drawn-out story of what I did before grading, and why grading has made the hobby far more enjoyable for me. It has nothing to do with investing, value, or anything like that. It has everything in the world to do with consumer confidence, a more level playing field, accountability, and to a lesser extent, protection and display.

Sure, I had to change some of my own grading habits. I had to accept the fact that a card couldn't be "Near Mint" if it had paper loss on the back. I had to accept that one soft corner or a minor wrinkle had a major impact on the grade. And I also had to accept the fact that I still can't be 100% confident, because once in a while the graders miss something. But for me, grading has solved WAY more problems than it's created.

-Al

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Posted By: T206Collector

Those are my sentiments exactly.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL

Here are some of my Durhams. You'll recognize the leftmost card as the one you traded me.
I am surprised you are saying that it was rejected due to trimming......as it is slightly larger
than my other two (which I know are not).




TED Z collection

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for your response to my question.

I guess, I have been more fortunate than you, in that I have had very few bad experiences
all these years collecting un-graded cards. It has not just been a matter of luck, though, as
I have developed certain practices to minimize some of the problems you encountered.

Thanks again,

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

Just for the other readers here, they should know that this card was identified to you as rejected by SGC for trimming along the top prior to making our deal. That was why I traded it for the beater I got in return from you. I even said it was a tough call for me to make when I purchased it in a group of other T206 cards, but I thought I'd pay the $8 and let SGC confirm that it was trimmed.

Here's the lousy scan I sent you from my camera phone (my scanner was down at the time.) As you can see, I included the SGC slip in my picture.



The size of the T206 is, of course, not determinative of trimming -- far from it. Rather, even from the scan you provide it is evident that the top border has a slight wave to it. Moreover, if you compare the four edges of the card, you will see that the top is different from the other three edges -- looking directly at the edge perpedicularly.

If we were trading these cards in person, and I did not disclose the trimming, to this day you would never know. And, maybe that's your point all along -- if unsuspecting buyers never know they're buying trimmed cards, then there is no harm, no foul. But grading takes that out of the equation. SGC merely confirmed my suspicions that the card was trimmed at the top. The Lindaman, of course, is not trimmed....

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Please do not misconstrue me......I had no problems with this card when we made the deal, and
I have no problem with it now.

I have closely examined it....and besides the fact that it is equal to, or slightly larger (1/32 inch)
than most other Durham's I have....I question the SGC opinion that it is "trimmed".

And, I only bring this up, to emphasize an ongoing complaint that I have heard from others....and,
that is the Grading Company's inconsistency with the rejection of cards due to "trimming".

There are many of us with stories (told and untold) of Grading Co. "A" rejecting a card, that was
subsequently graded by Grading Co. "B". This is a fact that cannot be refuted.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- SGC published a detailed article about card trimming in their recent collector magazine, and measurement is just one test they use. They also study the edges of the card, to see if they appear to be original. A card cut in the factory will have a kind of convex edge (if that's the right term) that can't be duplicated by an amateur. While I found the article fascinating, I'm not sure I could identify an original edge every time. You need good magnification, good eyesight, and some practice.

edited to add if a card is already in a holder, you can no longer see the edges and would have to break it out.

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Posted By: T206Collector

....is also that the card was trimmed. SGC only confirmed my opinion. These are only two opinions. But if you'd like to consider it not trimmed, that's cool, too. I am not sure why someone would trim a VG Durham with rounded corners. It doesn't seem to make much sense.

As Barry said, SGC Collector magazine has a very in depth article about how to spot trimming in T206 cards. It is quite informative. As I'm sure you know, given your years of experience holding T206 cards, trimming simply cannot be determined by stacking T206 cards on top of each other and seeing which ones run short. Check the Durham against the following checklist provided by SGC in that article -- none of which are outcome determinative, but must be used collectively to form an opinion as to the card. I have found that learning about trimming is done most easily when you are comparing a card that you 100% know to be trimmed against the following standards:

1) Wavy edges. Which, from your scan above and my own recollection, is pretty clear the top has a wavy edge.

2) Uneven corner wear. This one has even corner wear, so this would suggest no trimmed.

3) Parallel edges test. This one, more or less, has parallel edges, so another suggesting no trimmed.

4) Toning of the grain on the four borders of the card. My recollection is that the top toning is lighter (i.e., exposed to the elements more recently) than the other three borders -- suggesting trimmed.

5) Edge "roll." The top border of each card has a slight etching, appearing to be the top of a "roll" running across the card. This card does not have that, if memory serves me. Instead, the edges along the top form right angles on both sides of the card, whereas the remaining three borders do not.

6) Quality of Grain along the edge. The grain should be flat with no graininess or fluffiness to it. Upon close inspection, very faint striations or diagonal lines may be present. Fluffy grain can have a rough look to it and tiny holes may be seen in the edge. I do not recall the top of this card's grain quality.

7) Chipping along the edges upon inspection on the reverse of the card. When a card has been trimmed, the chipping disappears. I do not recall whether this card has chipping along the reverse top edge.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I use a Black Light and high magnification to examine cards. Furthermore, the guys at one Grading Co. (name witheld)
took me inside their curtain and showed me exactly what to look for on the card edges to determine if trimmed.

Barry, this Durham card is just anectdotal, the much "bigger picture" is that one Grading Co's "trimmed" card is another
Grading Co's "5 - 6 - 7 or even 8" graded card.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

...sadly, one of my best PSA 5 T206 cards was an obvious trim job.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- you hit on the most important point, and that is how will the grading services improve to the level that they are virtually right every time (no one can expect perfection). At this stage there is simply too much inconsistency in the whole system.

I agree in theory that professional grading is perhaps the most important hobby innovation of the last decade, but I still think there is a long way to go. It is not yet at a point where collectors have blind faith in it (no Eric Clapton jokes, please).

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

and I can't find my way home...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Fair enough...one Eric Clapton joke. But that's it!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The inconsistency between Grading Co's will only increase with the increasing volume of cards submitted.

And, I don't agree with your 2nd statement...."I agree in theory that professional grading is perhaps the
most important hobby innovation of the last decade".

The most significant innovation in the hobby since the mid-1990's is the Internet. The success of the
Grading industry is essentially a consequence of Ebay. If you recall, prior to Ebay, the grading of cards
was limited to PSA and ASA and the population of naked cards far outnumbered the graded cards.

TED Z

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Posted By: peter chao

Ted,

I agree that the internet has changed everything. However, it is the grading companies which brought the hobby to the next level. Cards are no longer just for children. They have become serious collectibles like coins and stamps.

Peter

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Posted By: barrysloate

Maybe it's fair to say that without graded cards, there wouldn't be as much baseball card activity on the internet...so in a sense they go hand and hand.

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Posted By: identify7

I believe that many collectors are uncertain regarding card authentication and trimming identification without outside help. And this is the portion of the grading company's service which is most valued.

I hope that most collectors can determine card quality according to their own criteria, as well as the criteria used by the various third party graders.

But there is often a disproportionate premium associated with the price of graded cards.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Are you saying it is like asking an auto mechanic to check out a used car before you buy it??

Then the old days were 'before mechanics', and we developed trust with dealers who dealt fairly with us.

Maybe the 'modern' way would be improved if collectors took a Yuppie approach, like checking things out with Consumer Reports... or learning about the cards themselves to develop independence from grading services.

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Posted By: peter chao

Gil,

Look at this way, I've been in the hobby for 20 years and have looked at probably 500,000 cards. I know most of the Topps cards by the color of their borders. I know which cards come centered often and which cards are commonly found off-centered. The only advantage a card grader would have over me is maybe they a black light or some other instrument that would allow them to look at a card more closely. But it is unlikely that the typical grader would have my hobby experience in grading a card. In my situation it makes little sense for me to rely on their opinion as to the grade of a card.

The only reason I'm not grading cards is that I make $400/hr. practicing law. I doubt if the grading companies can afford to hire me to grade cards.

Peter

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Posted By: peter chao

Gil,

Look at this way, I've been in the hobby for 20 years and have looked at probably 500,000 cards. I know most of the Topps cards by the color of their borders. I know which cards come centered often and which cards are commonly found off-centered. The only advantage a card grader would have over me is maybe they a black light or some other instrument that would allow them to look at a card more closely. But it is unlikely that the typical grader would have my hobby experience in grading a card. In my situation it makes little sense for me to rely on their opinion as to the grade of a card.

The only reason I'm not grading cards is that I make $400/hr. practicing law. I doubt if the grading companies can afford to hire me to grade cards.

Peter

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Musta thought he was billing instead of posting.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

nothing like a lawyer posting his billing rate to make me feel like taking a shower.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

He said he makes it, not bills it. Billing minus nonpayment, staff, supplies, insurance, premises, benefits... what's left equals "makes" in my mind.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Wow--$400 an hour and he knows more than the graders(such as the color of the cards borders) except for that black light or other instruments that they use.

We not only have an expert on our board but a rich expert--or at least one who makes a lot per hour when he works--I am very impressed!

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Posted By: Dave

Careful Jim.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Well, the only reason I'm not a $400 an hour lawyer is because I'm the piano player in a brothel.

-Al