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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, where in the hell is your youtube video?????

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Posted By: jeffdrum

on a vintage card chatboard..........you may find yourself assailed as a slabhead..........you may mind find yourself in a shotgun shack with your low grade cards..................you may ask yourself, "How the h@ll did I get here?"

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

'Bout time.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Sorry, I was slackin' off in another thread.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Attaboy.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

Cool video, Dan!

If we're taking requests, please put me in for the Animals "We Gotta Get Out of this Place" (I know, I'm a 60's guy). And it will take our minds off this other drivel.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

about 15 minutes and 40 posts ago, you hit it RIGHT on the head. Great, well placed comments.....

HRbaker in the house with the band references......

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Posted By: JimCrandell

T206,

Here you go again--I can only surmise that you keep at this when I suggested that a good chunk of your low to mid grade cards have been altered. I thought you saw the light after our last conversation.

Dave,

Don't get it--you seem to want to attack me just fore the sport of it--carry on.

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Posted By: Dave

I'm wanting to attack you for the sport of it. All the people on this board..and I picked you...for the sport of it..not for the fact that it gets pretty old watching you downgrade everybody else here who doesn't spend thousands of dollars on each card. It's not enough that you have to feel the way you do (more power to you) its the fact you have to be so freaking arrogant about it. Who died and made Jim Crandell the czar of the baseball card community? If nobody died and there was a vote, safe to say I missed the election.

Dave

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Posted By: T206Collector

"Here you go again--I can only surmise that you keep at this when I suggested that a good chunk of your low to mid grade cards have been altered."

I "keep at this" because I cannot sit still while you play the martyr -- throwing stones at others and then crying like a baby when they retaliate. It is loathesome behavior that cannot be tolerated.

Your suggestion that I am reacting this way because you suggested that my SGC graded T206 set, which is supported by a buy-back guarantee from SGC, has altered cards in it makes no sense. SGC's buy back is good enough for me. If you find any of my cards to be altered, please let me know and I will submit them to SGC for a full refund of the market price. I would LOVE -- truly LOVE -- to have the same chance to look through your PSA graded T206 cards and send certain ones to SGC to see what they have to say. Sadly, PSA will not buy back your (admittedly) undergraded and altered cards.

"I thought you saw the light after our last conversation."

I went back and read our e-mail conversation. I am not exactly sure what "light" I was supposed to be seeing. I received a few e-mails from you asking for me to stop insulting you -- which I had not done -- to which I tried to respond in the most calm tone I am capable of. The admissions from you that some of your PSA 8 T206 cards were overgraded or improperly graded was enough for me to get off of my soap box that day. Today, I could not sit idly by watching your hypocritical commentary.

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Posted By: jeffdrum

It was late one night...........I was feelin' somethin' wasn't right............there was not a PSA8 in sight.........

Musings of a low to mid grade collector.

I love prewar cards; short ones, fat ones, skinny ones even ones with backy spots

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Posted By: joe brennan

I hate to do this, but I can't help myself. It's eating me up inside. (Kramer when he punched MM. Hey,it's baseball)

Jim, You keep saying "and the collectors of ungraded cards will sit in ignorant bliss with their altered cards."

Let me ask you. How many of the 15,000 PSA cards you have are altered? 10% ? 15% ? How many PSA cards in circulation are altered? 10%? 15% ? How many raw are altered? 10% ? 15% ?

Just cause someone buys raw or graded, doesn't alway assure them of unaltered cards.

I have seen cards in holders ( all 3 companies) that are altered and passed with flying colors. Just food for thought or gas for the fire. And no, I am insulting no one with this post. Joe


In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Who/what is the final arbitor on "altered cards." If it's graded by PSA, SGC or GAI, can't we be satisfied that it's legit? If not, then stop sending them in or quit yer bitchin'!

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Posted By: dennis

1)now days you cannot collect nm/mint cards?....they are now known as PSA 8.is a card only nm/mint if it is a PSA 8?
2)andy :)great post! 3)frank you are what collecting is all about and your post was right on!
4)it is amazing the faith the backbone(ie:investors) of card collecting has in the slab.

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Posted By: Dave

I also find it rather funny that you preach the love for the hobby you have. Truth is if those 8's and 9's bottomed out and were worth $100 next month you'd be done with them forever...and that is sad. You truely are a lollygagger.

Dave

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Posted By: Anonymous

dave,

no--you are wrong again--I would try to buy up as many high grade pre-war cards as I could.

As usual with you no facts and just attacks.

Joe,

How many are altered--I don't know==some I guess but clearly not as many as the ungraded or the low-to-mid grade collector. The funny thing is many of these people don't even know their cards are altered and think that the problem is just in high grade cards when in reality a higher percentage of low to mid grade and ungraded cards are altered.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

T206,

How can I resist responding to you--your replies are comical..too much. Naturally as you well know I am just responding to those that attack me as you do time and again...with your loathesome behavior--ha ha. You must be really worried about those low-mid grade T206s.

Yes we all have altered cards-ungraded collectors the most. But with low pop T206s going for over $5,000 a pop in psa 8 I nor anyone else would take them out to have SGC tell me which ones.

Relax and be happy with what you collect.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

I hope you don't take this as an insult but I would gladly let SGC re-evaluate, or evaluate, every single card in my collection, raw or slabbed. I probably only have about 1000-1200 cards but my guess is I have less than 3 that would have a problem....and I honestly doubt more than 1, as I don't know of any. I look at them very closely. I have been very picky...I will say that most "old time" collectors do have many altered cards, mainly trimmed, in their collections. They don't worry a lot about it though as they only paid a very small amount for them....

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Posted By: Dave

dave,

no--you are wrong again--I would try to buy up as many high grade pre-war cards as I could.

As usual with you no facts and just attacks.


Jim I've provided nothing but facts. You expect anybody to believe you would buy up all the PSA 8's and 9's if the prices on them dropped to next to nothing? The FACT is you'd sell yours off as soon as the prices started to drop on them...not buy more. It would be nice Jim instead of all these personal attacks on the board you COULD actually contribute something useful, but with your long standing history we all know that won't ever happen. Fabricate things just as you've been doing. Lollygagger.

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Posted By: John

Jim,

Your logic astounds me. The below comment makes no sense at all to me please explain if you can???

”Yes we all have altered cards-ungraded collectors the most. But with low pop T206s going for over $5,000 a pop in psa 8 I nor anyone else would take them out to have SGC tell me which ones.”

So you’re saying that you may also have altered cards but you’re not going to take a chance on cracking them out only to find out their altered in some way? Because your altered cards are worth way more than say that of the mid-grade altered cards that we all supposedly have according to you, do I have this correct?

So pass this 5k bummer on to the next guy right?? Sounds really commendable from a guy who wanted to spearhead the cleansing of the hobby, and implement a code of conduct.

“You must be really worried about those low-mid grade T206s.”

If this epidemic of altered VG-EX cards is so rampant according to you, I ask why anyone would spend time doctoring cards that would sell for a few hundred dollars, when low pop 8’s as you say pull 5k???? Seems like the latter would be the profitable choice for the card doctor.

Jim, perhaps people are really out to get you, although I highly doubt it. Have you ever heard of being the bigger man and letting it go. Nah…because you thrive on this stuff, you love the attention. I’m very glad I missed this so called summit of the minds in NY. I wanted to support your ideas of a cleaner hobby, I really did. But after the few months of reading your posts, you seem nothing more than a self-serving child, who is nothing more than a predictable walking contradiction.

One thing I am certain of, if there was a need to clean the hobby up. You most certainly would not be the correct spokesperson, how can anyone take you seriously with comments like the above and the behavior you have relayed on this board the past few months?

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Posted By: joe brennan

Joe,

How many are altered--I don't know==some I guess but clearly not as many as the ungraded or the low-to-mid grade collector. The funny thing is many of these people don't even know their cards are altered and think that the problem is just in high grade cards when in reality a higher percentage of low to mid grade and ungraded cards are altered.

Jim, I have to agree with you. If they purchased them, they probably don't know they are altered.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Leon and Wonka,

I made an offer to Jim a few months back to split the cost of having SGC or even PSA take a second look at his PSA 8 T206 cards. He refused, based on loss in value. Obviously he was much less concerned with cleaning up the hobby when the hobby started with his collection.

These are the excerpts from that conversation:

T206Collector:
"I will split the cost of testing my theory with you: crack all of
your PSA 8 T206 cards out of holders and then submit them raw to
either SGC or even back to PSA. Do you really think that your 8's
will all return in 8 holders again? I am willing to bet -- again, by
splitting the cost of this endeavor with you -- that even PSA would
not grade a meaningful number of your former PSA 8's on a raw
resubmission, either by giving them lower grades or by rejecting them
for evidence of trimming. How much does it cost to submit 150 cards
to PSA? $1,500? As soon as you're ready to do it, let me know where
to send my check for $750. If you really want an interesting study,
you'd do the right thing and send them to SGC first, before cracking
them back out and putting them back into PSA holders. If you're so
willing to spend thousands of dollars on your PSA 8 collection, you
should be equally willing to spend a few hundred dollars to see what
SGC thinks about your pristine T206 collection. And, I'm not talking
about having David Foreman over for cocktails and a quick showing of
your illustrious PSA collection. I'm talking about a blind submission
of raw cards. If my experience [with PSA] is anything like yours, I would guess that 1 in 4 would have problems."

JIMC Response:
"why would I want to break out cards that individually are worth
$2,000-$6,000 out of their holders? While I am sure some would not
regrade I am not about arbitrarily destroying the value of my
collection."

T206COllector Response:
"It would not 'arbitrarily destroy the value of your collection' if all
of the cards got the same grades that they have now. In fact, the
value would stay the same."

JIMC Response:
"I just told you I am sure a certain number bof 8s would not
regrade--yet you ask it again."

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Posted By: Dave

But Jim said he wasn't concerened with the market price for his PSA 8's...he wouldnt' care if they dropped to $100...yeah right.

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

Don't comment here much, always thought this board as fun and useful in learning about my T206s...no more! This board has turned into a freakin, unbelievable joke. Went from being the one of the best message boards in the hobby to the worst in months!

Say what you want about the PSA boards, but at least they don't do background checks on one another and reveal contents of private emails like little children.

No mas!

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Posted By: T206Collector

I normally I would not do such a thing, but (a) I only excerpted the portion of my offer and his response since I would like to now make my offer public in light of Leon and Wonkaticket's suggestion that Jim have his PSA 8's looked at. And (b) I did not just copy and paste our entire discussion, which, since there was nothing particularly personal said, should not have raised too many eyebrows either, but I did not think it was necessary.

You may think it was childish, but I think it drives the points of the arguments in this thread home. Again, I cannot sit idly by watching as Jim tries to act the martyr. He is motivated by profit, not the good of the hobby.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Amen, T206 collector.

The focus he had was cleaning up the rest of the hobby, not his own cards.



The cards aren't each worth $2k to $5k. The cards in holders are worth that to folks that buy slabbed cards. If you broke one out, it is still the same card, and would have the same value. The "extra value" is the increase in marketability (to some) because of the slabbing.

And if the card was regraded by SGC, there should be no concern about a loss of value, unless PSA unduly graded the card high. And if they did, then that would be a card that needs "cleaning" to clean up the hobby. Seems Jim has a duty to practice what he preaches. I do, I bust slabbed cards out. He should, he should have no fear of having his cards correctly graded... unless he prefers incorrectly graded cards over accuracy.

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Posted By: Joe D.

please do not post the data for the week I was on vacation.

I fear people will see that the page views goes down by about 5,000 per day

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Perhaps the "cleaning up the hobby" stuff was a bit more self-serving that we all realized?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

There are 4 big grading companies. They do the same thing, but with slightly different criteria as relates to standards. Perhaps some have better people working for them. Perhaps some are more consistent.
Regardless, each is accepted by the Hobby as being able to render opinions on card grades.
Just as if I were to put Frank, T206, Leon, and myself in seperate rooms, each view a parcel of cards, assign grades and determine authenticity. I GUARANTEE different results between ALL 4, especially as relates to autheticity and alteration. GUARANTEE it like T206 does with a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!.

So, to bitch endlessly about one or the other is insane, and deals not with the reality of such a subjectively based activity. Hold up errors in posts for fun or warning galore, its good to be aware, but the other stuff is school yard rubbish.

In the same way I wouldn't have SGC regrade my cards (and they're already in SGC holders) because 'on reflection' some border line calls might go against me, why the hell should Jim do so. Just because he is an ass doesn't mean he has to commit financial suicide for anyones edification.
When I go to sell my house, and an agent tells me what its worth and what they think they can sell it for, I don't ask another agent to come over and point out all its 'real' flaws and therefore why it SHOULDN'T be sold for half that amount. I want a Seller to view its best attributes and communicate that with other buyers who would see similar positives in my house.
I'm not going to ruin my financial world so as to allow someone else the opportunity to be more REAL about the truth of its condition.

Asking Jim to do so and then say 'see i told you so, he doesn't really care about card issues' is flat out lame. I can only assume it has been brought on by sheer annoyance with his on-line persona, but so what. On a public forum you don't have to sink to the lowest denominator unless you really want to.


Daniel

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Jim,

I have been very supportive of your efforts to rid the hobby of altered cards. And I have taken at face value the sincerity of your feelings toward this goal. Yet I have to say that I find your failure to be willing to break your PSAS 8's out of their holders and anonymously resubmit them to be quite hyprocritical. As you correctly suspect, a number will come back as either altered or with a lower grade. And as such you will take a financial hit. But what better way to lead your crusade than to have one of the preeminent PSA 8 collectors put his money where his mouth is and let the chips fall where they may. You will gain instant credibility and respect, and if in fact more than a de minimus amount of the cards come back as altered, and you go public with that information, you will have done tremendous good to your cause. PSA will feel pressure to do a better job of detecting alterations. Customers will demand that all grading services have a buyback policy analagous to what SGC has. In addition, you will demonstrate that the issue of card alteration is in fact a serious problem and does merit the hobby's attention.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't think it's nearly sinking to the lowest denominator to ask Jim to put his money where his mouth is. Remember this is a man who comes on this board and posts 10 confrontational posts in one morning and when he doesn't get the "help" he feels he deserves he lashes out at us as "uncaring" followed by weeks/months? of his martyr act.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Ok Dan, well, I agree with JimC that card alteration completely sucks.
I guess I had better be willing to put up some money of my own to cushion Jim's fall...anyone else who similarly cares about grading companies missing altered cards willing to pony up?

Daniel


Ps. I know my wife won't mind us having our mortgage defaulted on, or that the kids won't get christmas presents for the next few years.

Edited to say: Please remember that in nearly all cases none of us as collectors live in a vacuum, where the money spent on cards - or money lost if they were to become worth considerably less, would not significantly affect people close to us.
Asking Jim to fall on his sword asks similarly anyone who has a financial relationship with him to be similarly hurt.
Incredibly ungenerous of anyone to ask, IMHO.

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Posted By: T206Collector

1) These e-mails were exchanged at a time when the true purpose of my offer was to see if he was willing to put his money where his mouth was on the issue of the accuracy of T206 cards graded 8 by PSA. Of course grading is subjective. That's the point. To choose PSA 8 as a holier-than-thou collecting cut off for pre-war cards makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE if grading is subjective. Having gotten the admission that he agreed that PSA 8's are subjective, I felt I had made my point and I stopped speaking with him.

2) The answers that he provided in response to my e-mails demonstrate an entirely different point -- that is to say that his interest in ridding the world of trimmed/altered cards stops with his own collection. I never got on my soap box and said anything other than SGC's buy-back guarantee is sufficient for me. He was out there saying we need to do more. His answers to my offer demonstrates that he is not willing to do more with respect to his own collection, which makes them particularly relevant for this thread. In short, the only person that should have to keep submitting their cards to PSA and SGC is the person who wants to make absolutely 100% certain that the hobby is pure. To sit on your unpure cards, and spout out at the unpure cards of others, is hypocrisy.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Yup T206.
And the raw card collectors spouting how they can keep their collections free of altered cards because of experience and great eye should put their cards up for cross examination by fellow collectors to see how accurate they really are.
And collectors of lower graded material who constantly spout that card alteration is the domain of the 7's and up crowd should have to submit their own cards to see whether they have cards altered amongst their own group.
And no-one should ask for any industry to be better or cleaned up until they have foresaken any connection to said industry.

Blah Blah Blah.

This is merely an attempt to trap Jim in some sort of hypocrisy, in which nearly all collectors participate to some extent, to make him look more stupid than he already is.
Public humiliation is not really the weapon of choice if you want to help, but great when you want to inflict hurt.

And, I DO think I get it.

Daniel

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Posted By: Jason L

The Schulte is likely trimmed, but for $20, I'll buy an image like that all day long! doesn't bother me, but I respect "to each his own"

[IMG][/IMG]

I would imagine that a collector's concern regarding alteration greatly depends upon his use for the cards and the amount he spends...what exactly is all this bickering about anyway? looking like it's just become another way to pass a day...

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Posted By: T206Collector

You see these threads, much as Jim does -- people ganging up on him. You believe that this thread promotes the "public humiliation" of Jim. You see that as unfair and mean and so you come to his defense, even when you disagree with him. That is noble, but please do not assume that my motive is "public humiliation" or any other concerted effort to gang up on poor, dear Jim. I do not see it that way. I see Jim's posts as arrogant -- and I believe arrogance at this level needs to be responded to. You may see my words and actions as "weapons" intended to "inflict hurt," but I see them as "argument" designed to make a "point."

But if we are going to measure levels of insult, I have never gone so low as to call him "stupid," as your last post does.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

No Paul, people responding directly to Jim and his comments and telling him they believe he's wrong, or arrogant, and why - I think that's reasonable.

To tell someone they HAVE to incur the likely loss of lots of money to have any authority to make comment, I think is pure bullying and disingenuous.

Nothing more to argue here with you.
Feel free to have the last word.

Daniel

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Daniel, I don't understand your feelings regarding this. Jim has appointed himself the leader of the movement to clean up altered cards. It is hypocritical of him to not subject his own collection to scrutiny when he wants others to do so. I don't see any of this as bullying.

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Posted By: Wesley

T206collector, Have you actually read SGC's written guarantee? It actually seems quite limited. Apparently, the original submitter is the only person who can ask for review AND this must be done within 30 days. How does this protect someone who has purchased an overgraded SGC card from an ebay auction? Has SGC told you something different from what is on stated on SGC's submittal forms and on the website?



The SGC Guarantee

SGC guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the original submitter of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the original submitter may resubmit that card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade. THIS RESUBMISSION MUST BE REQUESTED WITHIN 30 DAYS OF RECEIPT FROM SGC.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's option, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Well, it seems that at least a few people agree with me that his behavior is hypocritical. Apparently, you believe that my responses go above telling him "he's wrong, or arrogant, and why," which you agree is "reasonable." In the end, I believe that is all I have done -- that I have not crossed your line into the territory of "pure bullying" and "disingenu[ity]." You are entitled to your opinion.

I still believe that if you are spearheading a movement to clean up the industry that it starts with your own collection. Indeed, the potential Jim has to demonstrate the invalidity of PSA 8 T206 cards would speak much more loudly and persuasively than his current position does. I have even offered to pay for half of his effort, even though I have never been much interested in joining such an effort, much less spearheading it. I hardly think my stance on this issue can fairly be termed hypocritical or disingenuous.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Dan,

I don't remember him asking any collector on this board to submit their cards for re-grading. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize, please show me the post and I will humbly retract everything I've said.
I believe JimC has made comment to efforts GOING FORWARD. That is, standards to be adopted for future grading, industry expectations for Dealers and how they treat their merchandise, etc...

Funnily enough, It was me in a thread a couple months back who came up with a hare-brained idea to create a new year dot for collecting and grading, with all cards already graded to be placed before the company eyes afresh for re-slabbing. Were such a venture available, I would be happy enough to be first in line for the extra peace of mind it would bring me, regardless of the risk of some cards not making it.

Anyway, let me know If I'm completely wrong and you can show where JimC is asking the rest of the hobby to undertake something he would make every attempt himself to avoid.

Daniel

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Posted By: Andrew

Wesley,

I know from personal experience that SGC's guarantee can be more far-reaching than that language. Quite some time ago I was the winner of the D380 Clement Bros. Pattee SGC 10 on eBay that caused quite a riot on the board. The card had extensive pencil on the front. I called SGC expressing my concerns. SGC asked to review the card, and subsequently gave me (in my opinion) a very generous refund on my purchase price, and I received the card back unslabbed. I am very pleased with how SGC handled the situation.

Andrew

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Posted By: T206Collector

I have found that their representations to me, either through their magazine, or through in person communications, have been much broader than the language on their website/forms. If I bought an SGC card on ebay that was obviously trimmed, I have no doubt in my mind that SGC would buy it back from me, based on experiences of fellow collectors. They take an active effort in clearing crap off the market. The Doyle example above is just one such example.

As far as I know, PSA does not admit its own mistakes.

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Posted By: Wesley

T206collector, I submit quite a few cards to SGC each year and purchase many SGC cards, but I am not privy to this information. Do you know whether this unwritten guarantee that you received through personal communications is extended to all SGC customers and all SGC cards?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...covered by SGC's guarantee, Wes. Just send them an e-mail and ask for yourself.

Andrew's experience above is consistent with every story I have ever heard from SGC and others. I have never heard of a 3d-party purchaser being shut out of an SGC buyback.

Edited to add that my personal communications with SGC consist of sit downs with their representatives at card shows and the occasional e-mail about a grading issue.

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Posted By: JK

I, like t206, have heard of several examples in which sgc has repurchased cards that were not owned by the original submitter.

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Posted By: Wesley

Why doesn't SGC change its written guarantee policy to reflect this? Otherwise additional guarantees that are not in writing may be difficult to enforce.

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Posted By: John

Daniel,

I’m not asking him to submit his precious T206’s for re-evaluation. I could care less what he does with them.

I’m asking him to get off his soapbox while he stands to profit from the very thing he was trying to spearhead. Especially when he admits with the comments below.

”Yes we all have altered cards-ungraded collectors the most. But with low pop T206s going for over $5,000 a pop in psa 8 I nor anyone else would take them out to have SGC tell me which ones.”

You can either be part of the solution as Jim has been jaw jabbing about for the past few months on here and in private emails to us. Or you can continue to be part of the problem by saying lets clean this thing up you guys first, I’ll keep my stuff as is.

Spin it as you may, but someone who willing partakes in the system, shouldn’t be standing to change it unless it starts in his or her own backyard. It holds about the same amount of weight as David Duke holding racial equality meetings on Wednesday and Klan rally’s on Thursdays IMO.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"Why doesn't SGC change its written guarantee policy to reflect this?"

Their lawyer probably got in the way. (-:

I would say the difference is customer service and mandatory buybacks in all situations. They have drawn a firm line on paper, but in practice their customer service is unparalleled. In short, the day I buy a trimmed SGC card that SGC won't buy back from me is the day that I stop being an SGC supporter.