new low for the ebay authenticity thing

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by G1911

…I return it, eBay pays the shipping, and then eBay forces the seller to refund me.

FWIW, the seller pays for return shipping.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by BobC

LOL

I hear you. There is no perfect answer that covers everyone's questions and issues 100%. Ebay obviously had/has some intention(s) in mind when proposing and implementing this new program, but they have not seen fit to share that with everyone that uses their platform, so the best we all can do is guess as to what their true and ultimate intentions are.

Must be one of those situations that is on a need to know basis and clearly we do not need to know.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Eric72

FWIW, the seller pays for return shipping.

Thank you for correcting. So it costs eBay $0 and gives the buyer a full refund on anything.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Must be one of those situations that is on a need to know basis and clearly we do not need to know.

Ain't it the truth.....ain't it the truth? LOL

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

This. I have been buying on eBay for 21 years. I have never once been scammed or defrauded. By applying the most basic of common sense, I've mostly avoided it. As a buyer, that eBay sides with me 100% no matter what for several weeks after a card is delivered leaves essentially no room to get defrauded anyways (which has only happened a couple times, and by big name sellers). Even if I bought a fake or the seller sent a fake instead of a legit card pictured, it doesn't really matter. I return it, eBay pays the shipping, and then eBay forces the seller to refund me.

Having every single card (or slab, they won't even review the actual card the time, which should maybe signal that this isn't about cards at all anymore) of value go through this review cannot possibly be cheaper than the old policy. Nor does it actually afford greater protection. I know this apparently sends some members into rages, but oh well.

It is no shock that some people love the AG program. They do not have to use common sense when buying on eBay, take the time to educate themselves or take steps to vet their sellers and instead pass that responsibility onto someone else. All the while they can maintain the illusion that the card they bought, which might be altered, is 100% legit. Ya gotta love it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

It is no shock that some people love the AG program. They do not have to use common sense when buying on eBay, take the time to educate themselves or take steps to vet their sellers and instead pass that responsibility onto someone else. All the while they can maintain the illusion that the card they bought, which might be altered, is 100% legit. Ya gotta love it.

I'm against it, but I see why others might like the raw card version. I do not understand getting triggered over encountering posts that think authenticating slabs is silly.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by G1911

Thank you for correcting. So it costs eBay $0 and gives the buyer a full refund on anything.

Generally speaking, yes. There are time limits, though. Ungraded trading cards have the shortest return window, if I'm not mistaken. Last time I checked, it was three days (if the seller doesn't offer returns) from confirmed receipt of the item.

This was put into place on the heels of Topps Project 2020. When values cratered, buyers were intentionally damaging cards and forcing returns weeks later.

It makes sense on another front, too. If an active player suffers an injury, the seller shouldn't be forced to give a refund and take the item back.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm against it, but I see why others might like the raw card version.

Agreed.

I do not understand getting triggered over encountering posts that think authenticating slabs is silly.

Sadly I do understand it. Sign of the times. The hobby is not immune.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Adam, I believe the point of the eBay guarantee is that you received what you paid for. I believe 'breaking the seal' would only prevent you from a return (busting chain of custody thingy).

That is the literal opposite of how eBay suggests using the service: "Your card comes in custom packaging that can be folded into a stand‑perfect for highlighting the newest add to your collection." if the only purpose of it was confirmation, they'd not bother with the fancy display packaging for the card. Speaking of which, the "padfolio" (eBay's word for it) is ugly as heck and doesn't stay in place for display. I tested it.

Again, I don't think it is a bad thing per se with raw cards, just really, really silly for slabbed cards.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In 24 years of heavy buying on ebay, there was a total of ONE occasion on which someone sent me something other than what I bought. It was not an item the guarantee would apply to, and in any event I got my money back within one day. I have to believe my experience is typical of buyers in the card space. Are they REALLY saving us from anything nontrivial? Sure, you can posit the box of rocks hypothetical, but how often does that really happen? I don't think a program this disruptive can be justified by a once in a blue moon type of fraud.

Bad news sells. There are thousands of transactions that are problematic. We hear about them and repeat them. At the same time we ignore the millions of transactions that occur without a hitch. You can apply that to any 'issue' that might arise in any part of life.

But if it can save only one child...

[Snapolit1]

Completely missed in all of this is how the eBay program protects sellers against specious claims. In the past few years I've had a half dozen of so sellers come back to me (usually modern cards) and ask for some bullshit partial refund for a scratch on a case that supposedly wasn't apparent or some other nonsense. The level of stupidity is off the chart. How about "card doesn't seem as sharp as it did in the picture. How about a $50 refund." And if you don't give in to them they slam you with lousy feedback and you are off to the races with eBay dealing with that. I haven't read all the fine print, but would hope some of this nonsense could be eliminated with the new eBay system.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Completely missed in all of this is how the eBay program protects sellers against specious claims. In the past few years I've had a half dozen of so sellers come back to me (usually modern cards) and ask for some bullshit partial refund for a scratch on a case that supposedly wasn't apparent or some other nonsense. The level of stupidity is off the chart. How about "card doesn't seem as sharp as it did in the picture. How about a $50 refund." And if you don't give in to them they slam you with lousy feedback and you are off to the races with eBay dealing with that. I haven't read all the fine print, but would hope some of this nonsense could be eliminated with the new eBay system.

I would be surprised if it would foreclose the not as described type of claims, other than a claim by the buyer he received a completely different item.

[todeen]

I just bought a $600 raw card from Greg Morris on ebay. But it didn't need to be sent for authentication. Does GM have a deal with ebay to avoid this?

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by todeen

I just bought a $600 raw card from Greg Morris on ebay. But it didn't need to be sent for authentication. Does GM have a deal with ebay to avoid this?

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

Often they auction things and use the phrase " Set Break" in the listing..... ?? possibly the new rule is only for single cards ?

..

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would trust Greg Morris as much as CSG. Not that anyone is perfect.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by glchen

I completely disagree with the comments in this post. Scamming is always worse than ignorance. It's outrageous to me that we can blame the victim of the scamming instead of the perpetrator. There's an entire thread on N54 right now on the scamming going on in the BST, and many of the victims are experienced and knowledgeable board members. it's the same thing with ebay. Buyers on ebay expect a safe marketplace. They shouldn't have to be on guard that they will be scammed.

Therefore, in general, I completely support the steps that ebay is taking with their guarantee authentication service. I have bought several items that went through this service, both graded and raw. I've never had an issue with the additional days that it took for the items to go through the service. Frankly, the biggest time issue was that one seller sent the item to the authentication service through USPS Registered Mail, that that took FOREVER. But everyone recommends Register mail for expensive items, so I was fine with it.

I agree that it makes less sense to have graded cards go through the Authentication service, but I'm fine with it. As others have mentioned, there have been scams even with graded cards such as empty box, bogus tracking numbers, cracked slabs, fake slabs, and so forth. Let me put it this way. Let's say the major auction houses said that as a new policy, graded cards would now be shipped directly from the consignor to you instead of from the auction house. if you have any problems after receiving the item, tough luck. I think there would be outrage against any auction house that announced this change because folks expect the auction house to do some basic sanity checking for even the graded cards as part of the service they expect from the BP they pay. It's the same thing here.

The scams pulled off or attempted here are an entirely different situation than most of the ones on Ebay.

Sending to PSA or CSG is only intended to catch items that are not authentic or not what they are claimed to be.
They wouldn't preclude a scam where the item is never actually shipped and the seller vanishes.

In the case of bad cards, I believe it's up to the buyer to have some idea what they're buying and some ability to tell if it's real.
PSA themselves don't have as much ability to spot alterations as they claim, and I wouldn't expect CSG to be better because they're new.

I've bought a handful of fake or altered cards over 40+ years. All but one I suspected were fake or knew for sure it was altered/fake. The only one that fooled me was the first, when I'd been collecting more seriously for less than a year.
My own knowledge is the first line of defense, That applies to all my hobbies.
And I believe it should apply even more as the items become more expensive.

Not having that knowledge is, at least to me irresponsible.
Like saying "I don't need to worry about riptides despite the warnings! They have lifeguards."

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by todeen

I just bought a $600 raw card from Greg Morris on ebay. But it didn't need to be sent for authentication. Does GM have a deal with ebay to avoid this?

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

I could be wrong, but I believe that Greg Morris and perhaps one other well respected large seller had an exception from this program from the very beginning.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would trust Greg Morris as much as CSG. Not that anyone is perfect.

….and with Greg Morris you have the liberty of holding it in your hand before you decide to keep it.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

….and with Greg Morris you have the liberty of holding it in your hand before you decide to keep it.

Awesome! The buy on approval approach. Love it. Anyway up until this AG program, in almost all instances a buyer had the right to return for a refund.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That is the literal opposite of how eBay suggests using the service: "Your card comes in custom packaging that can be folded into a stand‑perfect for highlighting the newest add to your collection." if the only purpose of it was confirmation, they'd not bother with the fancy display packaging for the card. Speaking of which, the "padfolio" (eBay's word for it) is ugly as heck and doesn't stay in place for display. I tested it.

Again, I don't think it is a bad thing per se with raw cards, just really, really silly for slabbed cards.

LOL, I should have said the 'essence' of the guarantee.

I would love to see pics of someone's shelf display of their prized padfolios!

[Yoda]

I wonder where customer satisfaction figures into Ebay's business model, if at all. Here is a service, the majority here thinks is unnecessary, that is being forced upon buyers who really don't want all the hideous bells and whistles. All they want is their precious piece of cardboard.
the licensing agreement with CSG stinks and is clearly a conflict of interest for Ebay.

[Exhibitman]

Jim, I'm sure someone somewhere has a shelf of these uggo padfolios proudly displayed. Perhaps next to the Franklin Mint Liberace plate?

And for the next bit of overkill I am now seeing 'otter boxes' for slabs



Encase your card in a PSA coffin, wrap the sarcophagus in a sleeve, then put it in one of these cases. And then undoubtedly into a padded carrying case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Better still, into a vault.

[Tabe]

I actually don't hate the concept on those "grade guard" cases. The colors are terrible but I don't hate the concept.

[Snowman]

Not giving buyers the option to bypass this authentication step is the part I dislike. I don't need help determining if a card or slab is authentic or not.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not giving buyers the option to bypass this authentication step is the part I dislike. I don't need help determining if a card or slab is authentic or not.

That was my point early on. Glad they are offering it to those who need it. At the risk of infuriating Sanpolit1 again, I don't need CSG's opinion on an ungraded card and I certainly do not need PSA's opinion on a slab's authenticity.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

That was my point early on. Glad they are offering it to those who need it. At the risk of infuriating Sanpolit1 again, I don't need CSG's opinion on an ungraded card and I certainly do not need PSA's opinion on a slab's authenticity.

Especially one from its rivals...For that matter, I don't need CSG's opinion on a card it doesn't grade. That's like asking a homeless guy for interior decorating tips.

[LACardsGuy]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Don't they send them to PSA? The place that never makes a mistake and everyone working there is WAY smarter than us?

They go to CSG, which does not know its A from its elbow. I just had THREE cards rejected as altered, when none were, and SGC graded them all with numerical grades. It is a nightmare for sellers. Fine for buyers, I guess, other than if cards get rejected them and they actually wanted them.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by LACardsGuy

They go to CSG, which does not know its A from its elbow. I just had THREE cards rejected as altered, when none were, and SGC graded them all with numerical grades. It is a nightmare for sellers. Fine for buyers, I guess, other than if cards get rejected them and they actually wanted them.

For some reason I thought raw cards went to CSG and graded went to PSA.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

For some reason I thought raw cards went to CSG and graded went to PSA.

This is exactly how it works.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Especially one from its rivals...For that matter, I don't need CSG's opinion on a card it doesn't grade. That's like asking a homeless guy for interior decorating tips.

Out by me I see some super creative stuff so...

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Especially one from its rivals...For that matter, I don't need CSG's opinion on a card it doesn't grade. That's like asking a homeless guy for interior decorating tips.

I don't buy raw cards on eBay very often, so I couldn't care less.

Realize my life would be a lot easier here if I knew everything like you guys and just consistently complained about everything. I could complain Ebay is not doing anything on fraud. Then I could complain that they are trying to do something on fraud but it's a hassle. Again, just like the larger political environment we are all dealing with. Complain politician is doing nothing about problem A. Outrageous that he hasn't spoken about this issue. Then complain politician's proposal on problem A is woefully inadequate. Then when politician changes proposed problem rip him or her for taking so long to deal with it. And then complain that problem really doesn't have to be addressed in first place. And then slam cost of trying to deal with problem. Whatever the move is just complain.


It's a cool system. Just complain about everything.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Realize my life would be a lot easier here if I knew everything like you guys and just consistently complained.

The irony.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

The irony.

Zactly...not sure anyone has started more threads for the single purpose of complaining.

[Snapolit1]

Lol. On a board where senior citizens complain that Shohei Ohtani is getting too much attention.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Zactly...not sure anyone has started more threads for the single purpose of complaining.

Oh there definitely is.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Lol. On a board where senior citizens complain that Shohei Ohtani is getting too much attention.

Are you okay?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

Often they auction things and use the phrase " Set Break" in the listing..... ?? possibly the new rule is only for single cards ?

..

I am told that all a seller has to do is use the magic words set break and the guarantee won't apply. What a joke.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is exactly how it works.

Does that mean that if I buy a PSA graded card on Ebay, it goes back to PSA for further evaluation with presumably PSA receiving compensation for their work? If so, this double dipping at its' best and irritation for the buyer.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Does that mean that if I buy a PSA graded card on Ebay, it goes back to PSA for further evaluation with presumably PSA receiving compensation for their work? If so, this double dipping at its' best and irritation for the buyer.

Yes, if it's over the value threshold, any single graded card not sold by a couple specific sellers goes to PSA to authenticate the slab, but not the card inside. It seems to encompass CSG, SGC, Beckett and PSA slabs that PSA has to give an approval on, possibly more but the policy is really vague. The slab authentication double dip is the part I think is getting into comical territory.

Buy card. Get it slabbed. Put it in a sleeve to protect the slab. Have PSA validate the slab is real. Put an otter box case on the slab to further protect the slab. Get a purple sticker put on the slab.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, if it's over the value threshold, any single graded card not sold by a couple specific sellers goes to PSA to authenticate the slab, but not the card inside. It seems to encompass CSG, SGC, Beckett and PSA slabs that PSA has to give an approval on, possibly more but the policy is really vague. The slab authentication double dip is the part I think is getting into comical territory.

Buy card. Get it slabbed. Put it in a sleeve to protect the slab. Have PSA validate the slab is real. Put an otter box case on the slab to further protect the slab. Get a purple sticker put on the slab.

It is a significant contribution to the anti-fraud effort and a great thing for the hobby. Feel good about it!!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It is a significant contribution to the anti-fraud effort and a great thing for the hobby. Feel good about it!!

Thank you for reminding me, I wouldn't want to be one of those old know-it-alls who complains about everything and thinks Shohei Ohtani sucks. I love these new developments. Now that my plastic slab is secured by several layers of protection, both physical protection and mind-easing sticker validation, I can sleep secured that my slabs are authentic and in the stated condition. Because PSA would never lie or cheat. I can trust them, and my slab. I came here to collect cardboard pictures of other men, but I stayed for the clear plastic in otterboxes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Thank you for reminding me, I wouldn't want to be one of those old know-it-alls who complains about everything and thinks Shohei Ohtani sucks. I love these new developments. Now that my plastic slab is secured by several layers of protection, both physical protection and mind-easing sticker validation, I can sleep secured that my slabs are authentic and in the stated condition. Because PSA would never lie or cheat. I can trust them, and my slab. I came here to collect cardboard pictures of other men, but I stayed for the clear plastic in otterboxes.

He loved Big Brother.

BTW, are those lovely blue folders recyclable, does anyone know? I would prefer to do something useful with them.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I don't buy raw cards on eBay very often, so I couldn't care less.

Realize my life would be a lot easier here if I knew everything like you guys and just consistently complained about everything. I could complain Ebay is not doing anything on fraud. Then I could complain that they are trying to do something on fraud but it's a hassle. Again, just like the larger political environment we are all dealing with. Complain politician is doing nothing about problem A. Outrageous that he hasn't spoken about this issue. Then complain politician's proposal on problem A is woefully inadequate. Then when politician changes proposed problem rip him or her for taking so long to deal with it. And then complain that problem really doesn't have to be addressed in first place. And then slam cost of trying to deal with problem. Whatever the move is just complain.


It's a cool system. Just complain about everything.

I don't know everything about everything. But if I was going to spend a few thousand on something I'd darn sure learn enough about it to trust my own opinion first instead of just blindly spending. Or putting all my trust in a company that's often wrong. Or one that has less experience than I do by a few decades...

So I don't buy expensive autographs, but I do get some educational entertainment from the "is this ok" threads in that section. I try to guess if it is, then read to see if I'm right.

[Exhibitman]

Based on my (admittedly tiny) sample of orders, I think the eBay authenticating gig may be adversely affecting CSG's service. I've had an express (7 business day) order sitting there for 12 business days and counting.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Based on my (admittedly tiny) sample of orders, I think the eBay authenticating gig may be adversely affecting CSG's service. I've had an express (7 business day) order sitting there for 12 business days and counting.

Yeah I honestly cannot see how both PSA and CSG could not be adversely impacted (at some level) by their respective programs given the sheer volume of cards that have to be coming in.

Could see the impact on CSG being far greater than PSA because CSG actually has to have a grader look at the raw cards.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Could see the impact on CSG being far greater than PSA because CSG actually has to have a grader look at the raw cards.

Almost certainly so because CSG has to actually do something and evaluate the item, whereas PSA has to glance at it for 2 seconds and go “yeah that’s a slab”.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Almost certainly so because CSG has to actually do something and evaluate the item, whereas PSA has to glance at it for 2 seconds and go “yeah that’s a slab”.

They also have to assemble the nifty authentication kit and I am sure do some data entry, not to mention packaging it up and mailing. I wonder how many cards are coming into PSA a day now for this purpose.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They also have to assemble the nifty authentication kit and I am sure do some data entry, not to mention packaging it up and mailing. I wonder how many cards are coming into PSA a day now for this purpose.

As a starting point:

eBay sold listings go back 3 months.

In the Trading Card Singles category there are 138,178 sold listings, with a price over $500.

Of these, 78,981 have a grader assigned to the listing.

78,981 / 90 = 876.566 per day average.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

As a starting point:

eBay sold listings go back 3 months.

In the Trading Card Singles category there are 138,178 sold listings, with a price over $500.

Of these, 78,981 have a grader assigned to the listing.

78,981 / 90 = 876.566 per day average.

I would love to know how many of those 78K slabs they have rejected. None maybe?