Knickerbocker Photo (Update)

[SteveS]

Hi everyone! Several months ago, I posted images from my stereoview photograph that I believe depicts members of the Knickerbocker baseball team. I acquired it on eBay; it was listed as just "Six Learned Gents," but I noticed certain resemblances immediately. I wanted to give you a quick update. I've studed it further and took into account the various opinions I've received. I finally realized that the image is reversed. Also, as it's a stereoview and there are two identical pictures on the card, I discovered that the picture I didn't use is clearer than the one I did. I also figured out how to use the photo editing tool on my phone to sharpen the pictures so they're much clearer and easier to compare. After doing all that, I found that I was wrong on three of the six original identifications. I'm pretty much 100% convinced that all of these IDs are now correct (Walter Avery, Doc Adams, Duncan Curry, Charles De Bost, Fraley Niebuhr, Charles Birney). To me, it seems irrefutable that this photo depicts the Knickerbockers. In any event, I hope you're all doing well, and I would appreciate any opinions or help you can provide. Thanks!

[mrreality68]

Very interesting picture and fantastic research

Thanks for sharing

[vthobby]

Amazing detective work. I'll now have to update my future Ebay searches with "Learned Gents" lol

Awesome Really!

Thanks for sharing!

Mike

[oldjudge]

Sterioviews basically began in 1860. That makes the image from 1860 or later. The person at top left looks young in the picture taken in 1860 or later. How could he have played for the Knickerbockers? I’m not drinking the Kool-Aid.

[SteveS]

mrreality68 and vtgmsc, thank you! oldjudge, from my research I found that stereoviews began to take hold around 1857. The earliest ones were white or cream-colored with squared corners, which fits the description of this one. Also, Henry Anthony, who played for the Knickerbockers, owned with his brother Edward one of the most prominent photo businesses in the country, and they were way ahead of the curve when it came to the latest photographic developments. It's also possible that a previously-taken photo was made into the stereoview by taking a picture of that picture or using the negative process of that era.

[prewarsports]

I couple of things I will point out. I have been doing photography for a very long time and could write paragraphs about stereoview photography and it's evolution but suffice it to say you have a c. 1870 stereoview on your hands with it actually in my opinion most likely dating to about 1872-75. The other thing that is not really supportive of the evidence is the age range of the men in the image, while individually some of the identifications look pretty good, some are a bit off from a cursory look. The fact that some of the men in the photo appear to be quite young (maybe 30 years old) while others appear to be much older (perhaps in their 60's) combined with the vintage of the photo would be problematic for your assessment as a Knickerbocker image when coupled with the early 1870's date. Just my two cents.

[SteveS]

prewarsports, thank you for your opinions, which are appreciated and definitely worth more than two cents. It's my understanding that stereoviews from the 1860s-1870s are on colored cards with rounded corners, and usually have the photographer's/distributor's information on them. The earlier ones are white or cream-colored with squared corners and no info. As for the ages of the men, after sharpening the image and looking at each one very closely in comparison with the known photos, every facial feature is a very close match. At first I thought that the man I identify as De Bost was much older and someone else wearing glasses. But a close look shows that he is not wearing glasses and appears to be older because his eyes are mostly shut and the blur of the stereoview makes it appear that he has bags under his eyes. For what it's worth, I ran them all through two different facial-match programs and all the results showed very high positive match rates of 84%-97%. As I say, I am not sure whether the photo is an earlier one that was used to make a stereoview. In any event, thanks again, and happy collecting!

[slightlyrounded]

On the back of the card, does it look like it reads "3rd 5th" on the right hand side? Or is that 'Stll'?....hard to tell. If so, maybe that could represent a civil war regiment or battalion and this was some sort of reunion or formal meeting?

Or perhaps something to do with the history of 5th 3rd bank?

Sorry, just spitballing.

[SteveS]

slightlyrounded, I appreciate your looking at the back view that I posted. From what I can tell, it's written with a modern pen. I think it has to do with the way the guy from whom I bought it kept track of his inventory. He had a lot of old photographs listed, and others also had similar numbers on the back.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by SteveS

slightlyrounded, I appreciate your looking at the back view that I posted. From what I can tell, it's written with a modern pen. I think it has to do with the way the guy from whom I bought it kept track of his inventory. He had a lot of old photographs listed, and others also had similar numbers on the back.

Ah, modern pen! Well there you have it! This photo couldn't possibly have been taken prior to 1953 as this is when Bic pens were invented!

[SteveS]

bdk1976, say it ain't so!

Michael, in no way did you sound snarky! All your comments have been thoughtful, honest, and insightful. Another thing about the Wright photo is that it was taken by a Boston photographer who was known for having only the most prestigious customers. By this time, George was known in that town not just as a player, but he had established one of the country's top sporting goods businesses, Wright & Ditson.

Snowman, yeah, getting old sucks. And it's too bad Doc Adams didn't autograph this stereoview with his Bic.

[molenick]

All right, I will leave it to others to chime in. It is a very interesting experiment in what people do or don't see while looking at the same thing (and what evidence people use to either support or disprove a theory). Again, no disrespect meant if I sounded a bit snarky.

[aquarius31]

Both the mount and albumen are in very good condition for an ‘early’ stereoview. I have one that is from 1860 and is faded, insect damage and brittle in spots. Depending on where you live, perhaps you consider getting a local photographer (or better yet a conservationist who deals in photo restoration) to take a look and further help with the dating. Online pictures can only go so far. When I went to a local conservationist with my stereoview, they actually had an original stereoscope and I was able to see the ‘depth’ and 3-D like imagery with it!