Breaking News - Cleveland Indians

[Fred]

Originally Posted by mr2686

We should probably get rid of the Padres name to appease the atheists too.

Yeah, give it a few years, then someone will feel offended that the Swinging Friar is a humiliation of a Catholic priest. We live in an age of hyper sensitivity and political correctness gone awry.

I feel that celebrating "Pirates" is a terrible thing to do because Pirates were thieves and murderers. Why do we as a society allow that to happen?

What about the KC Chiefs? Is that the next sports franchise name that is being targeted? Redskins - gone, Indians-gone. Chiefs can't be far behind.

Sorry about that mini-rant -

[nolemmings]

As I mentioned in my last post, this has been going on for 50 years. Get over it and stop whining.

[Jason19th]

I get very tired of the argument that’s this type of action is “woke” white people deciding what offends someone. I feel that this argument fails for two main reasons

1. It puts the burden on the aggrieved minority group to fight ever battle. These groups have enough burden and cannot be expected to fight every slight and injustice. These groups should not be expected to explain every insult and educate about ever wrong.

2. It misses the point that we as the majority group should be offended by the action. We may not have taken the original action but that doesn’t mean we should turn a blind eye to the wrong and not act. We should be embarrassed about what has been done and fix it. Let’s all stop pretending that Indian names were historically meant to honor in a real way. Most of these names were created on the teens- the thirties. They were not meant to honor real people struggling to prosper. They were put in place to recognize the image of the Indian as the noble savage, the cowboys and Indians view, the dime novel image. This is caricature not reality, and you can never honor with caricature. This was not a country respecting its native inhabitants. This was a country that was sending young Indian children to school to “save the man, kill the Indian. ” We tried to destroy their language and their culture. We did not take these actions but we need to stop misrepresenting what the actions really meant. I am not imposing offense on others, I am offended at what has been done in our name.

[mouschi]

Cleveland Baseball Players

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by mouschi

Cleveland Baseball Players

With an all time franchise low team batting avg of .225 last year that might be offensive to baseball players.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Seriously, my advice to the owners is....re-name the team the Cleveland LAKERS....since the Stadium is situated next to Lake Erie.

Then, we can watch (and laugh) how the "politically correct" crowd struggles to change the name Lakers.....for they will try, as they
have no respect for anything traditional.
.

Except the stadium hasn't been next to Lake Erie for 25 years...

[Ronnie73]

If you look and search deep enough with any topic or name of anything, you will find something that offends the 2020 generation. It doesn't have to even be sports related. It could be the name of a vehicle, or even the name of a power tool. Lately I find it's easier to just accept the fact that I'm wrong and they are right. Kinda like "the customer is always right" even when they are not. It's just more simple to agree lately, and move on and get things done. I know how to do many things. Sometimes these people come around needing something done. Sometimes my amnesia acts up and I forget how to do something. Simple rule in life. Be kind to each other, and others will be kind to you. I know this went a little off track from a team name change, but at some point you won't be able to say anything to anyone without the possibility of offending someone or someone just hearing what you said the wrong way because they are programmed to take everything as a negative remark.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by perezfan

And while we're at it, let's rename another SoCal team...

I thought you were talking about USC. Their name might be offensive to people who don't practice safe sex.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I get very tired of the argument that’s this type of action is “woke” white people deciding what offends someone. I feel that this argument fails for two main reasons

1. It puts the burden on the aggrieved minority group to fight ever battle. These groups have enough burden and cannot be expected to fight every slight and injustice. These groups should not be expected to explain every insult and educate about ever wrong.

2. It misses the point that we as the majority group should be offended by the action. We may not have taken the original action but that doesn’t mean we should turn a blind eye to the wrong and not act. We should be embarrassed about what has been done and fix it. Let’s all stop pretending that Indian names were historically meant to honor in a real way. Most of these names were created on the teens- the thirties. They were not meant to honor real people struggling to prosper. They were put in place to recognize the image of the Indian as the noble savage, the cowboys and Indians view, the dime novel image. This is caricature not reality, and you can never honor with caricature. This was not a country respecting its native inhabitants. This was a country that was sending young Indian children to school to “save the man, kill the Indian. ” We tried to destroy their language and their culture. We did not take these actions but we need to stop misrepresenting what the actions really meant. I am not imposing offense on others, I am offended at what has been done in our name.

How does this make the name "Indians" offensive?

You are way over-analyzing this, going back in history, finding grievances, and trying to say that now the very word "Indians" shouldn't be used. Do you want to cut it out of books too?

[The-Cardfather]

Unless I missed it, I'm surprised that no one on the board suggested "Cleveland Spiders"(in homage to the 1800s team of the same name).

But I'm sure that a group of arachnophobes would find it offensive.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

The whole concept of baseball is personally offensive. I identify as a basketball.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Tabe

A suggested name I heard from someone else: Cleveland Admirals, in honor of Cleveland native Admiral Isaac Kidd, who was killed at Pearl Harbor and awarded the Medal of Honor.

Under his watch, USS Arizona's crew improperly stowed several thousand pounds of black powder outside of the magazine that detonated during the attack. Had Kidd lived, he likely would have been court-martialed.

[keithsky]

All the sports teams should be named after animals. At least they don't complain. Not yet anyway

[packs]

The only two teams to change their names were the Redskins and the Indians, two teams who have been at the center of controversy over their names for decades. I don't really see this knee jerk reaction to change everything and anything that you guys are talking about.

[Throttlesteer]

Maybe its been around for so many decades because there wasn't much controversy. But in 2020, its time to make a difference. Forget the people getting sick and hospitals running out of beds. We should worry about 100-year old baseball team names and pancake syrup. I dont think the perspective is necessarily wrong, but the timing is suspect.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by packs

The only two teams to change their names were the Redskins and the Indians, two teams who have been at the center of controversy over their names for decades. I don't really see this knee jerk reaction to change everything and anything that you guys are talking about.

Way to try and kill a passionate argument!

[packs]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Maybe its been around for so many decades because there wasn't much controversy. But in 2020, its time to make a difference. Forget the people getting sick and hospitals running out of beds. We should worry about 100-year old baseball team names and pancake syrup. I dont think the perspective is necessarily wrong, but the timing is suspect.

But what is sacrificed in changing the name? None of those grander things were affected by it.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I get very tired of the argument that’s this type of action is “woke” white people deciding what offends someone. I feel that this argument fails for two main reasons

1. It puts the burden on the aggrieved minority group to fight ever battle. These groups have enough burden and cannot be expected to fight every slight and injustice. These groups should not be expected to explain every insult and educate about ever wrong.

2. It misses the point that we as the majority group should be offended by the action. We may not have taken the original action but that doesn’t mean we should turn a blind eye to the wrong and not act. We should be embarrassed about what has been done and fix it. Let’s all stop pretending that Indian names were historically meant to honor in a real way. Most of these names were created on the teens- the thirties. They were not meant to honor real people struggling to prosper. They were put in place to recognize the image of the Indian as the noble savage, the cowboys and Indians view, the dime novel image. This is caricature not reality, and you can never honor with caricature. This was not a country respecting its native inhabitants. This was a country that was sending young Indian children to school to “save the man, kill the Indian. ” We tried to destroy their language and their culture. We did not take these actions but we need to stop misrepresenting what the actions really meant. I am not imposing offense on others, I am offended at what has been done in our name.

I love #2. "I'm offended so you should be offended!".

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Mark17

How does this make the name "Indians" offensive?

You are way over-analyzing this, going back in history, finding grievances, and trying to say that now the very word "Indians" shouldn't be used. Do you want to cut it out of books too?

Haven't they done the same for African Americans who were offended by names Europeans called them to let them know they were lesser of people in their eyes? What about Chinese or Japanese or LBGTQ? Why can't we treat each other with respect as equals?

They are not Indians. An Indian is a person from India.

[Leon]

Personally I* think changing the name of the Indians is a crock of sh!@. There is no way that is offensive to anyone unless they are looking to be offended. Always the victim, should be the motto for 2020.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Leon

Personally I* think changing the name of the Indians is a crock of sh!@. There is no way that is offensive to anyone unless they are looking to be offended. Always the victim, should be the motto for 2020.

And yet 40+ years ago teams began changing their team name from Indians to something else because no way that was offensive to anyone? Just seemed like something to do?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

And yet 40+ years ago teams began changing their team name from Indians to something else because no way that was offensive to anyone? Just seemed like something to do?

If I get called an American should I be offended? Sorry, it won't ever fly with me. If everyone would just get a job, as Judge Judy (my hero) says, all would be good. Instead you have everyone getting offended at anything because they have been taught to play the victim card. I think I should be offended that anyone disagrees with me >....

Or if not offended by that just give me a few minutes to find something else to be offended by. Crock of crap if you ask me.

[Throttlesteer]

There's a certain amount of power to be had if you can consistently move the goal posts. Societies always think they've finally go things figured out, only to have later generations gasp in abhorrence to their barbaric perspectives.

Fifty years from now, they'll be burning our cards in a pile due to these idols being womanizers, bigots', communists, capitalists, etc...

Hide your Ruths, hide your Hornsbys, hide your Cobbs.....they're coming for you!!!!!!!!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by rats60

They are not Indians. An Indian is a person from India.

This line sounds like it came from a brainwashed millennial. American Indians refer to themselves as Indians...ok? It's not even offensive to THEM.

[Shoeless Moe]

I think they should change the name of the state Indiana while they're at it.

I get offended every time I drive thru that state.

Mostly 'cuz of the odor.

[Malibu39]

Originally Posted by keithsky

All the sports teams should be named after animals. At least they don't complain. Not yet anyway

That is what PETA is for!

[packs]

Originally Posted by Leon

Personally I* think changing the name of the Indians is a crock of sh!@. There is no way that is offensive to anyone unless they are looking to be offended. Always the victim, should be the motto for 2020.

If you read the statement from the team it will tell you exactly why the change was made and what the opinions of the stakeholders were:

“Hearing firsthand the stories and experiences of Native American people, we gained a deep understanding of how tribal communities feel about the team name and the detrimental effects it has on them,” team owner Paul Dolan said in a statement. “While Indians will always be a part of our history, it is time to move forward and work to unify our stakeholders and fans through a new name.”

This was the response from the National Congress of American Indians:

“Today’s announcement represents a monumental step forward in Indian Country’s decades-long effort to educate America about what respect for tribal nations, cultures, and communities entails, and how sports mascots like the ‘Indians’ prevent our fellow Americans from understanding and valuing who Native people are today, what makes us unique, and the many contributions we make to this country,”

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by packs

If you read the statement from the team it will tell you exactly why the change was made and what the opinions of the stakeholders were:

“Hearing firsthand the stories and experiences of Native American people, we gained a deep understanding of how tribal communities feel about the team name and the detrimental effects it has on them,” team owner Paul Dolan said in a statement. “While Indians will always be a part of our history, it is time to move forward and work to unify our stakeholders and fans through a new name.”

This was the response from the National Congress of American Indians:

“Today’s announcement represents a monumental step forward in Indian Country’s decades-long effort to educate America about what respect for tribal nations, cultures, and communities entails, and how sports mascots like the ‘Indians’ prevent our fellow Americans from understanding and valuing who Native people are today, what makes us unique, and the many contributions we make to this country,”

Will the National Congress of American Indians be changing their name?

After all, Indians are from India.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Will the National Congress of American Indians be changing their name?

After all, Indians are from India.

That idea is not incorrect. Historically speaking, Columbus thought he was in India when he discovered what are now known as Native Americans. But it's really not an argument that is necessary to oppose.

If your name is Ed and I insist on calling you Dave, won't it rub you the wrong way?

[Fred]

Cleveland BBC (Baseball Club)

San Diego BBC

Kansas City FBC

That makes it pretty generic. Nothing to bitch about with those titles.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by Fred

Cleveland BBC (Baseball Club)

San Diego BBC

Kansas City FBC

That makes it pretty generic. Nothing to bitch about with those titles.

San Diego is named for a saint. That's religious and I'm offended. We should change it to South Los Angeles. Wait, that means angels!!! No, we need to fix that too.

[drcy]

I am a left-leaning moderate, so fall in the middle of the debates. I see both sides to the argument.

Though I can say the illiberal, ultra-woke, cancel culture far left is as obnoxious to me, and to many people I know left to me, as it is to anyone on the right. I am against it as much as anyone else. The right should know that they annoy most people on the left too. And, in fact, illiberal by definition is not liberal. Cancel culture and trying to stop freedom of expression is not liberalism.

My argument is it's up to the Indians, but that means it's really up to the Indians not some small vocal group of activists. As someone else said, I don't think the issue is political but about respect-- with respect being both a liberal and a conservative value.

[packs]

Lots of comments about what Native Americans think, but I posted what Native American representative groups think.

In case the NCAI is not as well known as most other organizations, I thought I'd share how they describe themselves:

The National Congress of American Indians, founded in 1944, is the oldest, largest and most representative American Indian and Alaska Native organization serving the broad interests of tribal governments and communities.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by drcy

I am a left-leaning moderate, so fall in the middle of the debates. I see both sides to the argument.

Though I can say the illiberal, ultra-woke, cancel culture left is as obnoxious to me, and to many people I know left to me, as it is to anyone on the right. I am against it as much as anyone else. The right should know that they annoy most people on the left too. And in fact illiberal is by definition is not liberal. Cancel culture and trying to stop freedom of expression is not liberalism.

My argument is it's up to the Indians, but that means it's really up to the Indians not some small vocal group of activists. As someone else said, I don't think the issue is political but about respect-- with respect being both a liberal and a conservative value.

Solid post.

[gawaintheknight]

Originally Posted by 71buc

My father is a life long 80 year old Tribe fan from Sharon Pennsylvania. He quit wearing his Chief Wahoo coat last year. I asked him why? I asked him if he thought the team name and Chief Wahoo were racist symbols. He answered, “I don’t know, and it’s not my place to tell Native Americans what they should or should not find racially offensive or insensitive. It’s just coat, I’ll survive” He is a very smooth old guy. My mother always described him as James Dean mixed with a Miles Davis sense of cool. My mother was right. I have spent 57 years trying to measure up to him and have always fallen woefully short.

+1

[honus94566]

Tradition?

It was traditional to enslave black people for centuries. To subjugate women and minorities. To deny basic rights to groups that differ from the mainstream.

Just because it's a tradition doesn't mean it's OK and shouldn't be changed. Just because it's a tradition doesn't mean it isn't harmful to others, even if it's a tradition you are particularly fond of, and personally benefit from.

"America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time."

Looking forward to seeing what the change will be.

Onward to a better future!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rats60

Haven't they done the same for African Americans who were offended by names Europeans called them to let them know they were lesser of people in their eyes? What about Chinese or Japanese or LBGTQ? Why can't we treat each other with respect as equals?

They are not Indians. An Indian is a person from India.

Is it okay with you if Indians refer to themselves as Indians? Because many of them do, including in organizational names.

Or would you, in your enlightenment, also tell Native Americans that they should not refer to themselves as Indians?

I wish more people would go about their lives with a "live and let live" attitude, rather than a superior, "everybody has to change as I decree" attitude.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Is it okay with you if Indians refer to themselves as Indians? Because many of them do, including in organizational names.

Or would you, in your enlightenment, also tell Native Americans that they should not refer to themselves as Indians?

I wish more people would go about their lives with a "live and let live" attitude, rather than a superior, "everybody has to change as I decree" attitude.

Agreed. So go about your life and let the Cleveland baseball team owner do the same.

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by packs

That idea is not incorrect. Historically speaking, Columbus thought he was in India when he discovered what are now known as Native Americans. But it's really not an argument that is necessary to oppose.

If your name is Ed and I insist on calling you Dave, won't it rub you the wrong way?

And then name a baseball team the Daves.

Would people be offended if they renamed them the Cleveland Buckeyes?

[egri]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

And then name a baseball team the Daves.

Would people be offended if they renamed them the Cleveland Buckeyes?

They'd probably have to sort it out with the Ohio State Buckeyes.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Is it okay with you if Indians refer to themselves as Indians? Because many of them do, including in organizational names.

Or would you, in your enlightenment, also tell Native Americans that they should not refer to themselves as Indians?

I wish more people would go about their lives with a "live and let live" attitude, rather than a superior, "everybody has to change as I decree" attitude.

I'm going to post the NCAI's response to the name change announcement one more time in case you didn't get a chance to read it above:

This was the response from the National Congress of American Indians:

“Today’s announcement represents a monumental step forward in Indian Country’s decades-long effort to educate America about what respect for tribal nations, cultures, and communities entails, and how sports mascots like the ‘Indians’ prevent our fellow Americans from understanding and valuing who Native people are today, what makes us unique, and the many contributions we make to this country,”

That should quell any general notions about the Native American response or preference.

I'm going to post the NCAI's description for their organization again as well:

The National Congress of American Indians, founded in 1944, is the oldest, largest and most representative American Indian and Alaska Native organization serving the broad interests of tribal governments and communities.

[wondo]

I'm amazed that so many here criticize Native Americans for being offended by Cleveland's nickname. Easy to pass judgement when it is the other guy.

Imagine if the Tigers changed their name to the Detroit Douchebags? Plenty of folks here would take it as a personal affront.

[Case12]

I like the idea of returning to Cleveland baseball legacy...

[campyfan39]

classy post

Originally Posted by wondo

I'm amazed that so many here criticize Native Americans for being offended by Cleveland's nickname. Easy to pass judgement when it is the other guy.

Imagine if the Tigers changed their name to the Detroit Douchebags? Plenty of folks here would take it as a personal affront.

[Case12]

Originally Posted by Case12

I like the idea of Cleveland baseball legacy...

But don't think Boston should ever return to Bean Eaters.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm going to post the NCAI's response to the name change announcement one more time in case you didn't get a chance to read it above:

This was the response from the National Congress of American INDIANS:

“Today’s announcement represents a monumental step forward in INDIAN Country’s decades-long effort to educate America about what respect for tribal nations, cultures, and communities entails, and how sports mascots like the ‘Indians’ prevent our fellow Americans from understanding and valuing who Native people are today, what makes us unique, and the many contributions we make to this country,”

That should quell any general notions about the Native American response or preference.

I'm going to post the NCAI's description for their organization again as well:

The National Congress of American INDIANS, founded in 1944, is the oldest, largest and most representative American INDIAN and Alaska Native organization serving the broad interests of tribal governments and communities.

Don't they know Indians are from India?

[TUM301]

All right all right, from now on it`s the Cleveland Redskins. Problem solved !

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Don't they know Indians are from India?

Might there be anything else of interest there?

[wondo]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

classy post

Chris,

Not particularly - just not cloaked in judgmental entitlement as some others I've read.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

Might there be anything else of interest there?

The fact some can use the name "Indian" without criticism for doing so, and some cannot.

If they take offense at Wahoo Sam, that's a whole different discussion.