The Hall of Fame of Uniform Numbers

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by sebie43

Your probably right Bill, I dont have all the stats to back me up... it was just my opinion.

I know, Sebastian, and I absolutely respect your opinion. I do.

Unfortunately, I have nothing but free time. But, I always try to provide the statistics, accolades, or articles written by journalists, authors and historians to support my positions. Sometimes I'm right, often times I'm not. But I feel it is always better to make an educated statement. I often learn things I did not know, either from my own research, or from posts made by others. And it makes for a much more interesting discussion.

There's nothing I love more than having a spirited debate. This forum is filled with intelligent posters who are incredibly knowledgeable about baseball, and sports in general. Discussions like these always bring a smile to my face.

Have a good day!

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Lidstrom was a spectacular defenceman, maybe the best ever

Better than Bobby Orr? No chance.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Better than Bobby Orr? No chance.

I'm sorry, Jim. I was just basing that on people I've seen play. I never saw Orr play. It's like when people ask me to name the best running backs, and I say Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, etc. Invariably, I get asked "No Jim Brown?" Well, I never saw him play, so I can't comment on how good he was, unless I want to base my opinion on what other people say about him.

Of the four major sports, hockey is the one I know the least about, though I love the game. I actually like hockey more than I like basketball now.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'm sorry, Jim. I was just basing that on people I've seen play. I never saw Orr play. It's like when people ask me to name the best running backs, and I say Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, etc. Invariably, I get asked "No Jim Brown?" Well, I never saw him play, so I can't comment on how good he was, unless I want to base my opinion on what other people say about him.

Of the four major sports, hockey is the one I know the least about, though I love the game. I actually like hockey more than I like basketball now.

OK fair enough. I am old enough to see Orr towards the end of his career, even on bad knees, he was the greatest defenseman to play the game.

Only defenseman to lead the league in scoring and he did it twice. 8 Norris Trophys in a 12 year career. Avg 1.3 points per game for his career.

Lidstrom's best +/- in a season was +43, Orr's best was +124

[markf31]

#90 Neil Smith
#93 Doug Gilmour
#94 Charles Haley
#95 Richard Dent
#96 Tomas Holmstrom
#97 Cornelius Bennett

[sebie43]

Being raised in Hockeytown me and Lidstom go way back, in fact we share rookie years.I never saw Joe D play but i know this, Nick Lidstrom is the SECOND best defenseman of all time, no question.
Now is Joe DiMaggio the second best CF of all time? Its hard to compare careers, longevity? Lidstrom...consistency? Well I dont know. I know its apples and oranges .Anybody else weigh in on #5?

[Peter_Spaeth]

How many songs is Lidstrom mentioned in?

[tedzan]

#1........ Billy Martin

#8........ Bill Dickey

#9........ Roger Maris (Yankees, Cardinals)

#10...... Phil Rizzuto

#14...... Gil Hodges

#23...... Don Mattingly

#36...... Johnny Mize



TED Z
__________________________________________________ _________________________________
LOOKING for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
.

[glynparson]

had more pure talent then possibly any receiver ever. Sharpe surely outworked him though. Both are great and I honestly think its one of those personal preference spots.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To continue Ted's thought, Mariano Rivera, 42.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

had more pure talent then possibly any receiver ever. Sharpe surely outworked him though. Both are great and I honestly think its one of those personal preference spots.

Terrell Owens belongs in the discussion too.

[nolemmings]

Allow me to disagree Peter. The career numbers might suggest so, but no one could dominate, nor draw such defensive attention, like the Freak. His talent was off the charts.

EDITED TO ADD: Maybe TO does belong in the discussion if you just look at the years after Randy left the Vikings for the dark side and wore #81 (like Owens) instead of #84.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Allow me to disagree Peter. The career numbers might suggest so, but no one could dominate, nor draw such defensive attention, like the Freak. His talent was off the charts.

As a Patriots fan I think the world of Moss' talents. Suggest you read this, however.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...han-randy-moss

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a Patriots fan I think the world of Moss' talents. Suggest you read this, however.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...han-randy-moss

I've read articles like that before. The author seems to ignore or downplay that TO had Jerry Rice on the other side for the first five years of his career. Also that the Eagles featured Brian Westbrook for 70 or so passes out of the backfield the one decent season TO had there, and that the Cowboys had Jason Witten for as many as 90+ when TO played in Dallas-- my point being that these teams featured different offensive styles. To reward TO as having to carry all the water while also punishing Moss for having Carter and Welker when we all knew who drew the double teams is misguided, IMO. No doubt Owens was productive for longer than Randy, but that does not make him a greater talent.

I tend to believe the guys who played against these receivers, and while I haven't searched for their opinions (yet), I would be surprised if any or many of them thinks that TO was better than Moss.

[TUM301]

Originally Posted by Jim65

OK fair enough. I am old enough to see Orr towards the end of his career, even on bad knees, he was the greatest defenseman to play the game.

Only defenseman to lead the league in scoring and he did it twice. 8 Norris Trophys in a 12 year career. Avg 1.3 points per game for his career.

Lidstrom's best +/- in a season was +43, Orr's best was +124

Grew up watching Orr and the Big Bad Bruins nite in and nite out. Around new England if you ask sports fans, most being all 4 major sports fans, they`ll tell you doesn`t matter how many S bowls Brady wins, Series Papi takes, or even the untouchable Larry Bird. No athlete will ever have the impact on the team and in the N E community that Robert Gordon Orr has/had . I like to tell the youngsters, Bobby Orr was Michael Jordan before there was a Michael Jordan".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by TUM301

Grew up watching Orr and the Big Bad Bruins nite in and nite out. Around new England if you ask sports fans, most being all 4 major sports fans, they`ll tell you doesn`t matter how many S bowls Brady wins, Series Papi takes, or even the untouchable Larry Bird. No athlete will ever have the impact on the team and in the N E community that Robert Gordon Orr has/had . I like to tell the youngsters, Bobby Orr was Michael Jordan before there was a Michael Jordan".

A guy is escorted into heaven by St. Peter. First thing he sees is someone skating on a pond. He asks, who's that? St. Peter replies, "That's God. He thinks he's Bobby Orr."

[CW]

Originally Posted by TUM301

Grew up watching Orr and the Big Bad Bruins nite in and nite out. Around new England if you ask sports fans, most being all 4 major sports fans, they`ll tell you doesn`t matter how many S bowls Brady wins, Series Papi takes, or even the untouchable Larry Bird. No athlete will ever have the impact on the team and in the N E community that Robert Gordon Orr has/had . I like to tell the youngsters, Bobby Orr was Michael Jordan before there was a Michael Jordan".

And he even made it into a song

(From the Tragically Hip's song Fireworks)

You said you didn't give a **** about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

[tedzan]

1929 was the 1st year the Yankees assigned uniform #'s. Here are some of the more notable names
on the 1929 team (that have not been listed yet).

#2........ Mark Koenig

#5........ Bob Meusel

#6........ Tony Lazzeri

#7........ Leo Durocher

#9........ Benny Bengough

#10...... Bill Dickey

#11...... Herb Pennock

#12...... Waite Hoyt



TED Z
__________________________________________________ _________________________________
LOOKING for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
.

[Beatles Guy]

#29 - Satchel Paige
#10 - Johnny Mize
#73 - Larry Allen
#74 - Merlin Olsen
#97 - Jeremy Roenick

[Butch7999]

new moninees for
1 - Jacques Plante (NHL) - six nominees already for 1, so explanation/argument now required:
... Hockey HOF, multiple Cup champion, career stats among very best of all time (miles better than Sawchuk, e.g.), innovator at position
2 - Tim Horton (NHL) -- could also enter with 7 or 24, but too many nominees there, so 2, his late-career number
10 - Pele (soccer) -- explanation needed again -- seriously? No other nominations for greatest footballer of all time?
34 - Thurman Thomas (NFL)
39 - Dominik Hasek (NHL) -- what Orr was to defencemen and Gretzky was to forwards, Hasek was to goalies
-- by any stat, light years beyond any other goalie of past 60 years
67 - Kent Hull (NFL)
78 - Bruce Smith (NFL)
79 - Ron McDole (AFL/NFL) -- should be for 72, his best years, but no other nominees at 79, his late-career number
89 - Steve Tasker (NFL)

redundant votes for
3 - the Babe (MLB)
4 - Orr (NHL)
8 - Yogi (MLB)
24 - Mays (MLB)
45 - Gibson (MLB)
66 - Lemieux (NHL)
68 - Jagr (NHL)
77 - Esposito (NHL) -- should be for 7, but too many nominees there, so 77, his late-career number
83 - Andre Reed (NFL)
99 - Gretzky (NHL)

[clydepepper]

MLB

3-Killebrew, B.Terry
4-Kiner
5-Greenberg, Bagwell
6-Oliva
7-Biggio
9-Minoso
11-Aparicio
23-Sandberg
27-Catfish Hunter
32-Steve Carlton
34-Puckett

NFL

10-Tarkenton
12-Jim Kelly
66-Ray Nitschke

NBA

7-Maravich
12-Stockton
21-D.Wilkins
22-Baylor
24-Moses Malone
32-Dr. J & McHale
34-Olajuwon & Barkley
44-Jerry West

[ZachS]

#1 - Tim Howard (USMNT)

[clydepepper]

33- Luis Tiant (Cle)
23- Luis Tiant (Bos & NYY)

16- Bo Jackson (KCR)
34 Bo Jackson (OAK)

[frankbmd]

There has been a rules modification made in the original post. Going forward no more than three players for each number will be posted. Editing of the list is based on votes when possible. The players listed are subject to change if a case is made for replacing one currently on the list. The goal is to identify the best player for each number. If you can make a case for adding Harmon Killebrew over Babe Ruth, please do so. If you cannot, Killebrew will not be added to the list. Similarly it was never my intent to identify the best 50 players to wear #7. If your nominee is not in the discussion with Mantle for some reason, he will not be listed.
Ultimately there will be only one listed at each number.
An update has been posted and many fine nominations have been eliminated from the list, at least for now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

60 Otto Graham

[Peter_Spaeth]

73 John Hannah how did I forget that one.

[sebie43]

#96 Tomas Holmstrom- Homer is certainly worthy. A career of dirty work paid off with 4 cups.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Lidstrom was a spectacular defenceman, maybe the best ever-and it pains me to say that as a Milwaukeean who is supposed to hate all Detroit sports teams. But DiMaggio is one of the ten greatest hitters in the game's history. And as great as Lidstrom was, in my humble opinion, nothing he ever did surpassed DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak.

I looked at it this way: Joe D is not one of the top 3 or 4 guys ever at his position. Nick is, so Nick over Joe D for #5. Have no problem with anybody picking Joe though - this one is as close as it gets.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

And even if you put Lidstrom's career accomplishments and rings up against DiMaggio's career accomplishments and rings, and by some stroke of luck they tied, Joe has the tiebreaker.


"Hi, I am Marilyn, and I will be Joltin' Joe's tiebreaker."

Tough to argue with that Still, Nick married a gorgeous Swedish lady. He ain't far behind

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Jim65

OK fair enough. I am old enough to see Orr towards the end of his career, even on bad knees, he was the greatest defenseman to play the game.

Only defenseman to lead the league in scoring and he did it twice. 8 Norris Trophys in a 12 year career. Avg 1.3 points per game for his career.

Lidstrom's best +/- in a season was +43, Orr's best was +124

Soooo hard to compare eras. There's absolutely zero doubt in mind that Orr, were he playing today, would not lead the league in scoring. I also have no doubt he'd get nowhere near a +124 (Konstantinov is the only guy in the last 30 years to even reach +60). That's not to try and diminish Orr, who obviously is a legend. Just that things are different now. I won't make a claim that Lidstrom is the best of all-time. But Lidstrom's 4 Cups, 6 Norris Trophies (and 3 runners-up), and 20 years as an elite player certainly put him in the top 2 or 3.

[Butch7999]

Well argued, so we'll add a third vote for Lidstrom just to stir things up.

But wait -- was our nomination of Horton for 2 not taken seriously? A deserving Hall of Famer,
and 2 is the only one of his numbers that's been retired by any of the teams for which he played...

[nolemmings]

#16 Brett Hull

[Tabe]

Man, even when honored, Sergei gets dissed. It's Fedorov, not Federov

And I his nomination for 91.

[veleno45]

A couple more negro leaguers...
Josh Gibson-and if memory serves me it is #20-sorry Barry Sanders and Frank Robinson, I still love you though.

Cool Papa Bell #17
Ray Dandridge #38
Satchel Paige wore 17, 22, 25, 26, 29, and 49 I think (although I am still trying to get that verified, any help?). Can we just list him number 1 in each?

[veleno45]

Since #44 has baseball and basketball we might as well add John Riggins to the list, though I certainly do not think he beats out that baseball guy.

[Tabe]

When I think of Bo Jackson, I think of #34 (Auburn and Oakland), not #16 (Kansas City).

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by veleno45

Since #44 has baseball and basketball we might as well add John Riggins to the list, though I certainly do not think he beats out that baseball guy.

Wow, Chris - you sure know how to show respect. That baseball guy is MR. Henry Louis Aaron !

[sebie43]

#71 Evgeni Malkin- 632 points in 508 games , Just a thought at an odd number.

[veleno45]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Wow, Chris - you sure know how to show respect. That baseball guy is MR. Henry Louis Aaron !

Clyde,

I was joking by calling him "that baseball guy". One of the best ever of course.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by sebie43

Being raised in Hockeytown me and Lidstom go way back, in fact we share rookie years.I never saw Joe D play but i know this, Nick Lidstrom is the SECOND best defenseman of all time, no question.
Now is Joe DiMaggio the second best CF of all time? Its hard to compare careers, longevity? Lidstrom...consistency? Well I dont know. I know its apples and oranges .Anybody else weigh in on #5?

I had baseball reference run a report of all players who between 1900 and 2014 accumulated 3,000 or more plate appearances, of which 75% of games played were as a center fielder. There are 92 such players. And on that list, Joe DiMaggio is the #2 center fielder in modern baseball history. Tris Speaker played much of his career in the dead ball era (which ended in 1919. Speaker started playing in 1907). The only player ahead of DiMaggio on the list is Willie Mays. DiMaggio's OPS + is 155. Mays put up a 156 OPS +. Willie Mays lost nearly two years of his baseball career when drafted by the army during the Korean War. Mays was 21 and 22 in his second and third year. Joe DiMaggio, however, lost three full seasons of his prime (1943, '44 and '45 when he was 28, 29 and 30) to military service in the air force.



Bill James stated that DiMaggio lost more home runs due to his home ballpark (Yankee Stadium) than any other player in history. Mickey Mantle stated that he and Whitey Ford witnessed many DiMaggio blasts that would have been home runs in any other stadium beside Yankee Stadium. 1.

These numbers, of course, only measure offense. And while Mays was an outstanding defensive outfielder, DiMaggio was a pretty good outfielder in his own regard.

You have to think that if DiMaggio has those three seasons in his prime, he exceeds 500 home runs and 2,000 RBI. And his OPS + goes up by at least one point, tying Mays, if not 2.

So the short answer, is Joe DiMaggio the second best center fielder of all-time? I would say yes, as far as center fielders of the modern era are concerned. He might even be, and in my opinion would have been, the best center fielder in modern baseball history.

[Butch7999]

All due respect, but you sure you ran that right?
Mantle played 76% of his games in center and ran up a career OPS+ of 172...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...antlmi01.shtml
Apologies if we're missing something...

[frankbmd]

More impressive to me than Joe's consecutive game hitting streak in 1941 is the fact that for his entire career he hit 361 home rums and struck out only 369 times.

That is a career HR/K ratio of .978731978, which is phenomenal.

Third place in this metric is probably Yogi who had 358 home runs and 414 career strike outs for a ratio of .86.

The list of those above .50 I would maintain is very short. There are a few though including Lefty O'Doul, Johnny Mize, Lou Gehrig, Kluszewski, Ott, Musial, Williams and Dickey. Actually O'Doul is above Berra, but with a much shorter career. There may be a few others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And even more impressive than that are TWO great nicknames -- Joltin' Joe and the Yankee Clipper.

Not to mention the immortal lyric, we want you on our side.

[the 'stache]

Frank spoke with me this morning, and brought up Joe DiMaggio's home run per strikeout rate, which I had completely overlooked while putting together the information to support my assertion that DiMaggio was in fact the greatest offensive center fielder in the modern baseball era. While Joe DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak is, in my opinion, the single greatest individual accomplishment in the history of American sports, his career home run to strikeout ratio is one of the most overlooked career accomplishments, certainly in baseball. DiMaggio's career numbers suffer from three full seasons lost to military service. But while he did play, he was a superstar, an elite hitter on par with Gehrig and Babe Ruth before him. And while Ruth and Gehrig both had an outstanding home run per strikeout rate, nobody in the game's history has combined power discipline at the plate quite as well as DiMaggio.

There have been 91 hitters in Major League history to amass 350 or more home runs during their playing careers. I had Baseball Reference generate a list of those players, which I imported into Excel. I then sorted the players to show who had the best Home run per strikeout rate in Major League History among power hitters. Joltin' Joe was at the very top of the list. He hit 361 home runs while only striking out 369 times. I feel very safe in saying that I don't ever see this mark by DiMaggio ever being bested.

[icollectDCsports]

Haven't read every page of the thread, but I'd nominate Sammy Baugh for #33 if he hasn't been listed already.

[Paul S]

If only Nellie Fox had power

[Peter_Spaeth]

A hitting streak is part luck, and essentially meaningless. I would rank other single season accomplishments ahead of it. Williams' .406 the same year. Brett's .390. Maris' 61. Henderson's however many steals it was. And that's just baseball. Overall, I would rank Beamon's long jump first -- never has a record been broken by that much -- it was literally a quantum leap.

[frankbmd]

one quantum leap for Bob. At the National in Chicago last year we chatted for 30 minutes. The highlight of the show for me. I'll add Bob to the list at 254.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A hitting streak is part luck, and essentially meaningless. I would rank other single season accomplishments ahead of it. Williams' .406 the same year. Brett's .390. Maris' 61. Henderson's however many steals it was. And that's just baseball. Overall, I would rank Beamon's long jump first -- never has a record been broken by that much -- it was literally a quantum leap.

In 1920 Babe Ruth himself hit more home runs than any other team in both leagues except 1. That is also quite dominant.

[Beatles Guy]

Not surprised to see Adam Dunn last on that list, but really surprised that Gary Sheffield is #14.

[Butch7999]

While there's still time and while there's still room, we'll add a nomination at 70 for Tom Sestak, legendary AFL DT, member of the All-Time AFL Team.