Who is the greatest BB player you ever SAW?

[FrankWakefield]

Reading through all of these posts, I see the names of players I saw, on the field, in person. I did not see DiMaggio play, nor Ted Williams, nor Satchel Paige. I think I saw the rest of them...

My initial answer to this would have been Mr. Musial. But I recognize bias in that, he was a lifelong Cardinal, a really nice guy, a great ambassador for the game. I thought about seeing Koufax and Gibson pitch against one another in St. Louis, I sat in the right field pavilion behind that screen, I can still hear the popping of the ball in the catchers' mitts. Neither wanted to lose to the other, they were bringing it. I don't think anyone's mentioned Lou Brock, nor should they, but he sure was exciting to watch when he was in his prime, stealing bases. Seaver was serious and businesslike. Same for Ryan, and Randy Johnson. Maddux had that same focus. I saw Mantle play, and Spahn, and Mays. And Clemente. As I've thought this through, maybe Albert Pujols... Or must it be Hank Aaron, with a solid career, complete skill set, and that big bat?

Do I look at a player's performance in a game, a season, a career?? I thought about Bonds, Marichal, Brett, Gwynn, Martinez, Boggs, Sutter... I know it isn't Puckett, nor Rose (although he may well have been the most driven, competitive player I ever saw on the field).

I turned to Bill James' list of greatest players. Mr. James has a way of figuring stuff out. Sometimes I don't initially agree with his results, but usually I'm won over with his reasoning. On page 329 of his revised Historical Abstract, he commences to explain his rating of the Greatest Players of All Time. To paraphrase would be an injustice, go read it, or read it anew. When you get to page 358 he commences his listing. I've put the players I've seen in person in bold.

1- Babe Ruth
2- Honus Wagner
3- Willie Mays
4- Oscar Charleston
5- Ty Cobb
6- Mickey Mantle
7- Ted Williams
8- Walter Johnson
9- Josh Gibson
10- Stan Musial

I'll list some more of the ones I saw...

12- Henry Aaron
15- Joe Morgan
16- Barry Bonds
21- Mike Schmidt
24- Frank Robinson
26- Rickey Henderson
30- George Brett
31- Mark McGwire
33- Pete Rose
34- Eddie Mathews
35- Craig Biggio
36- Warren Spahn
38- Tom Seaver

Joe Morgan was a player who could beat you many ways... seems he was always drawing a walk, or getting a big hit, or the biggest hit, I recall seeing him out in shallow right, knocking down a ball that had "base hit" written all over it, but Joe didn't have his glasses on, he wouldn't read "base hit", and he'd throw the batter out. And he was a presence on the base paths.

Henderson annoyed lots of fans and writers. James thinks that with the passage of time, Henderson's skills will be better appreciated.

Biggio... Mr. James explains that well. I thought he had a good shot at the Hall when he was in his 2nd or 3rd season, so I set out to get his autograph. I was successful. And he was, too.

I had a great uncle who was in the car business. He once told me of riding up to Detroit (from Kentucky) by train with another fellow, they were going to accept 2 cars at the factory and drive them back to Kentucky. He was a good businessman, and frugal. He was all about work and Church. But he did like to fish. And he'd sneak in a ball game once in a while. With a twinkle in his eye he told me about seeing the Senators and the Tigers, he saw Walter Johnson pitch, Ty Cobb hit, and saw Cobb steal a base. That would have been in the early 20's; at that time I'd think that Cobb and Johnson were the greatest players active (Wagner was a coach by then).


So.... the greatest player I ever saw must have been Willie Mays. Seems to me Mr. James' methodology did not include gracious autograph signing.

[Peter W Thomas]

Hitters:
1. Williams saw from 1947 to last AB in 1960 - nice result - probably would have had 700+ HR if not for 5 years in service 43-45 & 52-53
2. Mays saw 51-53 also saw the throwing contest with Piersol in 53 that wrecked Piersol's arm
3. Rice of the 70's before his sight went bad. Scarry - never seen balls hit harder.
Pitchers:
1. Spann saw 1947 to 1953 a master, would have had 400 wins if not in service 43-45.
2. Gibson saw 1967 RIP Red Sox impossible to hit, also 1968 RIP everyone he faced
3. Pedro with the Sox - Gibson in 68 all over.

[obcbobd]

Pedro in 99-01 was unbelievable.

For position players, I saw Aaron but at the end of his career. I've seen Bonds twice in person, he was one of the greatest before he juiced.

But picking a player just based on what I've seen, which is mainly Red Sox games I'd go with Yaz, George Brett or ARod

[dabigyankeeman]

Originally Posted by Jason Carota

Pedro Martinez, hands down. His performance during the 1999 season was out of this world.

Pedro has really long fingers, and the ends bend backwards, it allows him to hold onto the ball longer and also to put more spin on the ball. The guy is great.

Who's your daddy?

[Touch'EmAll]

Lets look at this when we toss in our beloved baseball cards.

For their era, the most valuable cards:

Ty Cobb - was the best
Babe Ruth - was the best
Dimaggio & Teddy - were the best
Mantle - was the best
Nolan Ryan - was the best

These players (for their era) have the highest prices for their cards. These players have the highest gap in value between them and their contemporaries.

[rnisly]

59 1/3 consecutive scoreless innings

awesome

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by dabigyankeeman

Pedro has really long fingers, and the ends bend backwards, it allows him to hold onto the ball longer and also to put more spin on the ball. The guy is great.

Who's your daddy?

I don't remember the year, but I once saw Pedro pitch a complete game one-hitter in Baltimore. I was seated down low behind home plate. I've never seen such movement on a ball. That had to have been the closest to unhitable I've ever seen.

[slidekellyslide]

After reading Kirk Radomski's book about the Steroid scandal I've changed my stance on the era somewhat. I now believe that a majority of major leaguers were either on steroids, dabbling with them or taking HGH from about 1997 to 2006..from about 1990 to 95 probably every team had at least one or two players taking steroids, but by 98 most of them felt that they better take them or some guy who is taking them will take their spot on the roster....Guys were taking HGH because it cut their healing time in half. The playing field was level as far as I'm concerned, and I've no doubt that if guys like Maris and Ruth played in the modern era they would have taken steroids too.

I believe someday this will be the prevailing attitude towards the era and that many guys who are now shut out like McGwire, Sosa and Palmeiro will be enshrined in the Hall of Fame.

[Bilko G]

he even signed an autograph for me

[rc4157]

I saw Seaver his rookie year (he lost to Mel Queen and the Reds at Crosley Field), I was spoiled growing up with the Big Red Machine with Pete Rose, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, and my favorite player Tony Perez. I haven't bothered to look up the stats but Perez seemed to always be reliable with men in scoring position.

I may have seen Hank Aaron, it's terrible but I don't recall if I saw him in Cincy or not.

Also saw Ken Griffey Jr. after coming to the Reds, he could still play, too bad he had so many injuries.

According to Frank's list of Bill James, the best I saw would have to be either Aaron (if indeed I saw the Braves in town, seems like I did) or Morgan.

RC

Edited to add: Hey, this was post #200 for me, only about 300 more and I might nab one of the infamous Net54 pins!

[FUBAR]

Well i'm probably the only person on this board that has never seen a live MLB game. So i don't have an answer. As a fan , the players i wanted to see were Jr, Nolan, Reggie J, Pujols, and Big Mac (ive always been a fan).

Off topic, although i feel left out, i got to see Gretzky play live at least 100 times including hoisting the Cup 3 times in person.. no one has ever dominated his sport like Wayne and it was just magic. But I went to the Oiler games to watch Grant Fuhr.

I got to see Peyton Manning play 1 series against the Seahawks. Hopefully i will get to see him play a complete game live one day!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Best player all-around was for me was Clemente. Most of the time he'd take the first strike - so in essence his most of his hitting stats were made by having only two strikes to work with. He had the best arm hands down. A true 5 tool player. May runs a closed second.

I also agree that Pedro Martinez was best pitcher in his prime - especially when one considers that he was truly dominating even in the steriod infested hitting era. Maddux runs a close second and Randy Johnson third.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One guesses that if Bill James updates his list again, ARod and Pujols and Bonds will be very near the top.

[dabigyankeeman]

Nobody mentions relief pitchers, how about Mariano Rivera? What this guy has done for so long in the regular season, the playoffs, and the world series staggers the imagination.

[DixieBaseball]

Barry Bonds (Pre-Roid 3 MVP era, and should have had 4, but Ken "Steroid" Caminetti, took one from Bonds early in his career. A lot of folks forget that Bonds was 185 lbs, when he was doing the 30/30 thing every year. His arm was lively from left, he could steal, hit for avg or pwr. He was the best before he took roids. Roids made him better than Ruth. (At least that is what the numbers say...) I would also possibly throw in Pujols, but he has no speed, but may be the best hitter I have ever seen. B/C of Pujols lack of speed, I would give it to Bonds pre-roid era. He won half his MVP's on roids and the other half off. Simply look at his toothpick arms and legs for his first 3 or 4 MVPs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have seen, both live and TV, mostly American League games. Brett, Griffey, ARod, Clemens, Pedro, Rivera.

[Theoldprofessor]

"Saw" Jackie Robinson in '48, but was only 6 at the time. Remember nothing.

Clemente. Never did anyone run the bases like Roberto. Saw him throw out a runner at third from deep right-center in Forbes, on the fly. By about 6 feet.

Maddux. "Mad Dog?" STUPID name for the most cerebral pitcher of our generation. Knew, like maybe a half dozen players in the history of the game, how to pitch. A privilege to watch.

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

...no one has ever dominated his sport like Wayne and it was just magic.

One word, Bobby Orr. Though Wayne was a close second and Mario an even closer third



Back on track, 2004 playoffs... Dave Roberts is the greatest I'd seen (From a barstool on Cocoa Beach), for stealing second. Sparking the greatest comeback in MLB history by ending a thousand year drought. Though the missus and most everyone I knew had written them off, I still did Believe. *whew*

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even though I am from Boston I think anyone who says Orr was better than Gretzky is being overly provincial/nostalgic.

[tbob]

Red Barber (who saw almost every player in the majors from Babe Ruth to Griffey Junior): "If I could have any one pitcher in history to pitch a game for me with my life on the line, there is no doubt who I would want to pitch that one game: Carl Hubbell."
Just thought I'd mention that since no one ever mentions King Carl. I understand that no one here is old enough to have seen him play in person. I just think he never gets his due.

[FrankWakefield]

When I first saw this thread I was thinking Mr. Musial was the greatest I'd seen. But as I mentioned above, after reading through posts and consulting Mr. James' Historical Abstract, Willie Mays must have been the greatest. Musial had a better average, more games, more doubles, more triples, a better on base percentage, a better slugging average, more walks, and Mr. Musial was infinitely nicer when signing an autograph for someone... Willie could play, though. I remember seeing him the first time, knowing about his basket catches and how I shouldn't be doing it. I can still see that first basket catch... and he almost always was in motion when catching a ball; if it was far from him he'd be flying across the outfield grass, if it were only a few steps away he'd wait the ball out and drift over at the last moment. I can see him wheeling around third base, dead set on scoring, hat flying off and arms churning. Willie brought excitement to the ballpark.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by tbob

Red Barber (who saw almost every player in the majors from Babe Ruth to Griffey Junior): "If I could have any one pitcher in history to pitch a game for me with my life on the line, there is no doubt who I would want to pitch that one game: Carl Hubbell."
Just thought I'd mention that since no one ever mentions King Carl. I understand that no one here is old enough to have seen him play in person. I just think he never gets his due.

2 years ago, I was at a dinner and found myself sitting next to an older fellow who taught at a university in California. We got to talking about baseball, and when he told me his age and that the Giants were his favorite team as a boy, I asked him if he'd ever seen Hubbell pitch. His eyes lit up and he told me he saw him pitch many times. He described his motion, his arms, the break of the pitches. I felt like I'd seen him, too. Near the end, he leaned over and said, "you know, I think I saw Bill Terry, too."

[jimm]

Greatest I'd seen probably Bonds or Rickey.

[sago]

Tom Seaver ainec.
The most harrowing part of the game was always the first inning, or if Tommy Hutton was in the lineup for the Phillies.

If anyone knows of a website that shows career pitching stats for each inning, I'd bet that Seaver's ERA after the 1st inning is significantly lower than his career ERA.

The same is probably true for Steve Carlton.

[FrankWakefield]

I agree, sago. There were several of those #1 starters from that time that seemed like they'd be saving a bit for later on, and sometimes they'd get roughed up that first inning. If you didn't get them then, you didn't get 'em...

[howard38]

Originally Posted by sago

Tom Seaver ainec.
The most harrowing part of the game was always the first inning, or if Tommy Hutton was in the lineup for the Phillies.

If anyone knows of a website that shows career pitching stats for each inning, I'd bet that Seaver's ERA after the 1st inning is significantly lower than his career ERA.

The same is probably true for Steve Carlton.

Spot on sago. If you scroll to the bottom of the link you'll see that seaver's first inning ERA was 3.75 and for every other inning (including extra innings) his ERA was below 3.00.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ear=Career&t=p

[howard38]

Jeremy, it was Terry Pendleton that "robbed" Bonds of an MVP early in his career although in his defense he had an outstanding season and was not to my knowledge linked to PEDs. When Caminiti won a few years later it was Mike Piazza that finished second in the voting and Bonds was fifth.

[JasonL]

was my favorite player, Ozzie Smith. I just never saw such a high level of mastery at playing his position than the performances he turned in every day.

But the most incredible thing I ever saw in person at a game, was Ichiro's right field play. I don't recall the particulars, except that I was attending a Yankees game vs. Seattle in 2002 (I think), seated several rows up and even with the first base bag. A Yankee hitter lifted a deep fly to right field, a runner tagged at third, Ichiro drfits over towards the corner and ctahes the ball. He then made the most amazing throw I have ever been witness to in person. You could almost hear the ball zing past us in a straight line, and the catcher cathes the ball at knee height on the third base side of the plate for the out.

I would like to have answered Kirby Puckett for this question, but unfortunately, I never got to see him play in person. I had centerfield seats for a Twins game at Comiskey, but it was the first game cancelled due to the strike, and the game then lost me for 10 years.

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even though I am from Boston I think anyone who says Orr was better than Gretzky is being overly provincial/nostalgic.

Gawrsh Peter, Orr controlled both areas of the rink. Killed penalties too. He put in some superhuman minutes. Some say, that kid could do everything but fly. I suspect you're too young to have seen his ice capades and are simply trolling.

Of course, as a true 60s Bostonian (not one raised out in the burbs). It's possible, my opinion could be bias'd. Prostalgic Steve

[sago]

Originally Posted by howard38

Spot on sago. If you scroll to the bottom of the link you'll see that seaver's first inning ERA was 3.75 and for every other inning (including extra innings) his ERA was below 3.00.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ear=Career&t=p

Thanks for the link. It felt like it should be available while I was searching, but couldn't find it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Gawrsh Peter, Orr controlled both areas of the rink. Killed penalties too. He put in some superhuman minutes. Some say, that kid could do everything but fly. I suspect you're too young to have seen his ice capades and are simply trolling.

Of course, as a true 60s Bostonian (not one raised out in the burbs). It's possible, my opinion could be bias'd. Prostalgic Steve

He could fly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hockey News agrees, FWIW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...he_Hockey_News

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Gawrsh Peter, Orr controlled both areas of the rink. Killed penalties too. He put in some superhuman minutes. Some say, that kid could do everything but fly. I suspect you're too young to have seen his ice capades and are simply trolling.

Of course, as a true 60s Bostonian (not one raised out in the burbs). It's possible, my opinion could be bias'd. Prostalgic Steve

Guess I am a burb guy . And how did this discussion get over to Hockey

[bbcard1]

Great thread...two ways of looking at it. One is that there are players with a sustained period on unquestioned greatness...Johnny Bench or Mike Schmidt would probably be those guys for me, though an argument could be made that Albert Puljos is approaching it...and it a gun were held to my head, I may have to hold my nose and say Barry Bonds. Just because you don't want something to be so doesn't mean it isn't.

There have been lots of guys who were greater for a summer or so. There were months/years where Mattingly, Gooden, Eric Davis and Bo Jackson were just incredible...as good as anyone...it just didn't last too long.

[JasonL]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

There have been lots of guys who were greater for a summer or so. There were months/years where Mattingly, Gooden, Eric Davis and Bo Jackson were just incredible...as good as anyone...it just didn't last too long.

I've never had so much fun as I did in 1986 and 87, watching Gooden, Eric Davis, and Bo. They were incredible fun to watch, albeit the performances were WAY too short...The only other time I've seen a ball do what Dwight did with it was in wiffle ball tournaments...

[GoldenAge50s]

Casting my vote for Mantle--Hands down the only player I ever saw that could make "the hairs on your neck tingle" in anticipation when he came to the plate.

Saw Mays, Clemente, Aaron, etc and yes, Ted Williams--NONE OF THEM could elicit that same feeling!

[dstraate]

I'm going to rehash what a few others have said, but two come to mind.

Clemens and Maddux

Wildly different styles and demeanors, incredibly dominant.

(And I just said Maddux and wild in the same sentence, it is the first time that's ever happened)

You witnessed history on the board people

[Bill Stone]

Duke Snider

[t210scouts]

1973 at Three Rivers Stadium. I was visiting some cousins and the Pirates were playing the Braves. Aaron entered late in the game as a pinch hitter and he received a standing ovation. Long fly ball to left field. It was my first MLB game.

[MMarvelli]

Mays

[seinbigd]

Sandy Koufax vs. Astros in newly opened Astrodome. Dodgers 11, Houston 1.
Houston homered and got to see the new scoreboard go off which was a really big deal in 1965.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by NashvilleBaseball

I would also possibly throw in Pujols, but he has no speed, but may be the best hitter I have ever seen.

Albert has stolen 11 bases this year so far and 16 twice in his career previously. He's not A-Rod or Barry Bonds in their primes but he's certainly way above having "no speed".

Tabe

[Rickyy]

I saw Willie Mays play as a kid, but he was at the tail end of his career...

My best pitchers whose careers were(are) still in full bloom - Nolan Ryan and Mariano Rivera
My best everyday player - pre juice Barry Bonds

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Albert has stolen 11 bases this year so far and 16 twice in his career previously. He's not A-Rod or Barry Bonds in their primes but he's certainly way above having "no speed".

Tabe

Pujols is definitely one of the smartest baserunners in the game. He is one of those guys that don't necessarily have speed, but know how and when to steal bases.

[steve B]

I only saw Mays and Aaron at the end of their careers, Mays at the very end with the Mets, first year I paid much attention to sports.

Of the players I've actually seen in person, it's very tough to pick a best player.
Rice in 78 was incredible, I still haven't seen balls hit that hard even with the juicing. Lots of wall denting Fenway singles that might have been homers somewhere else too.
Pedro was amazing for a few years.

And a few guys that could have been incredible, or don't get much credit for various reasons.
Lynn in 75, a shame he was so fragile and played so hard. I knew the season was heading south whenever he hit the wall.
Evans for pretty much his whole career. Not a spectacular batter, but incredibly consistent, and had a great arm. Not Ichiro, but the best I've actually seen.
Varitek. Yeah, not flashy, but catchers are a big part of pitchers being successful, and he's got the record with 3 no hitters. And none of them came with great pitchers. He Nearly had a fourth with Schilling, who said the hit came on the only pitch he shook off.

And to go way out on a limb -
Dave Kingman. Below average fielder I think, couldn't hit for average, not much speed. But if the Sox had ever signed him the season HR record would likely be around 80-90. Think of all those huge popups he hit going to left in Fenway.....The year he played for 4 teams I saw him hit one that hit up in the lights of the second light tower.

Steve B

[gfgcom]

Koufax
Clemente
Mays
Mantle
Aaron
B Robinson (fielding)

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by gfgcom

Koufax
Clemente
Mays
Mantle
Aaron
B Robinson (fielding)

Nice Convo:

Here is my evaluation:

1. Pitcher - PEDRO ...His intimidation and domination, especially for his size was something that I will enjoy telling generations to come.....When he would come out of the bullpen, it was probably what it was like when Satchel Paige would walk out to a Negro League game in the 30;s and 40s....

2. Hitter - Bonds - Im sorry, i know the steriods, but i saw him hit (i think #710) in Washington...i was third base line, and i swear that ball was at 500 feet in about 3 seconds. I was actually sitting behind Tim Russert (RIP) both were left speechless....

3. Field - Kenny Lofton - The dude had Jets....thats it, pure jets...

4. Arm - Tied Dwight Evans/Vlad - both dont need explanations

Notables:

1. Ken Griffey
2. Juan Gonzalez
3. Frank Thomas
4. Pujols....cant wait to see the next 10 years

[HRBAKER]

Pitcher: Greg Maddux
Non-Pitcher: Albert Pujols

[matthew]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Albert has stolen 11 bases this year so far and 16 twice in his career previously. He's not A-Rod or Barry Bonds in their primes but he's certainly way above having "no speed".

Tabe

Pujols scored on a wild pitch today & the ball probably did not get 10 feet away from home. He slid before the catcher could even make a throw.

Has anyone mentioned John Smoltz? Best pitcher I ever personally watched.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by tbob

I know a lot of posters are in their 20's and 30's and early 40's. Just wondering if that is why so many people are picking Greg Maddux over Koufax, Gibson and Ford.

I picked Maddux and I am in my 50s Bob. I just look like I'm late 30ish.
And I grew up in St. Louis and saw Gibson pitch for years.