Should Bud Selig Overturn Jim Joyce's Call?

[calvindog]

The easy route would be for Selig to reverse the call as that is what the public is clamoring for. Selig did the right thing here.

[JP]

Denkinger's call was nothing like this one, to me. That world series play was bang-bang. This one was BANG (pause a beat or two) bang. A no doubt out. I think Galarraga, Joyce, and the fans of baseball would like to see this reversed. So if no one loses out, why not switch it now?

[nolemmings]

The easy route would be for Selig to reverse the call as that is what the public is clamoring for. Selig did the right thing here.

Now I know I've had too many beers, as I agree with this poster 100%. Agreeing with Selig and Lichtman at the same time is enough to shake one's self-assuredness to the core.

[ctownboy]

A doctor not giving pain medicine or additional treatment to a dying patient might be the easy thing to do but is it the RIGHT thing to do?

A defense attorney telling his client to plead guilty as fast as he can might be the easy thing to do but is it the RIGHT thing to do?

Selig not having the balls to make a controversial decision is easy but is it right?

Honestly, WHO is hurt by him overturning the call?

The pitcher gets his perfect game.

The Umpire gets a load of regret (and threats for himself and his family) off his shoulders.

The Umpires get a break and some good PR (after having a REALLY crappy couple of weeks).

Sure, the batter loses a hit BUT, if you watch the replay, after he crossed the bag even HE was shocked he was called safe AND even he admitted, after looking at the tape, that he was Out. He also said that with the game the way it was and on a close play, he didn't expect the Ump to call him safe. So it sounds like if the call were reversed, the batter wouldn't have that big of a problem with it.

To recap, Selig ahs the power to change the call but not the balls to do it.

If changed, the pitcher would get his perfect game, the outcome of the game wouldn't change and the Umpire would get some relief.

Also, NOT changing the ruling just gives more kids reason to NOT like baseball. They can see an injustice has been done (yet Major League baseball, I am SURE, will continue to barrage them with messages that say to "do the right thing"), yet when it comes to the powers that be doing "the right thhing" they don't.

Also, it gives minority kids in urban areas something else to think about as far as being discriminated against. Gallaraga has a foreign last name and speaks with a Latin accent. How many kids do you think are out there now feeling that his skin color and nationality had something to do with Selig NOT overturning the call? I say quite a few. Just think about what guys like Milton Bradley, Torii Hunter and a few others have recently said about racism and discrimination in the Majors. Just look at the hype that surrounds the Civil Rights game every year.

The kids see what MLB is trying to project yet hear what some of the players are saying and see a disconnect. So, whether they are right or not, some kids probably feel if the pitcher's name was John Jones and he was a white American, then Selig would have reversed the call.

David

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Now I know I've had too many beers, as I agree with this poster 100%. Agreeing with Selig and Lichtman at the same time is enough to shake one's self-assuredness to the core.

This turn of events does not bode well for you.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Also, NOT changing the ruling just gives more kids reason to NOT like baseball. They can see an injustice has been done (yet Major League baseball, I am SURE, will continue to barrage them with messages that say to "do the right thing"), yet when it comes to the powers that be doing "the right thhing" they don't.

Also, it gives minority kids in urban areas something else to think about as far as being discriminated against. Gallaraga has a foreign last name and speaks with a Latin accent. How many kids do you think are out there now feeling that his skin color and nationality had something to do with Selig NOT overturning the call? I say quite a few. Just think about what guys like Milton Bradley, Torii Hunter and a few others have recently said about racism and discrimination in the Majors. Just look at the hype that surrounds the Civil Rights game every year.

The kids see what MLB is trying to project yet hear what some of the players are saying and see a disconnect. So, whether they are right or not, some kids probably feel if the pitcher's name was John Jones and he was a white American, then Selig would have reversed the call.

David

So you're playing the race card....on this??? Here's some advice: don't. You really do a disservice to the people you are claiming to try to help with this argument.

[Butch7999]

Originally Posted by Tom Hufford

... Today, I had lunch with Braves' GM Frank Wren, who watched last nights' game. As he put it, "There were obviously no other runners on base, the batter was either safe at first (and not trying to go to second), or he was out (game over). Joyce made the call, but as soon as Leyland came out to question it, all that needed to be done was for the umpires to confer and come up with a definite answer. They didn't do that, and Joyce gets all the blame. All this could have been avoided it the umps had just talked to each other, but they didn't. What a shame." Derryl Cousins is the Crew Chief of that umpire crew, and I haven't heard his name mentioned once.

Our very thought, Mercury. Were all the umps in that game dazed and confused? Given the historic, melodramatic circumstances, did none of them have the rudimentary awareness to huddle up and consider overturning the blown call? Obviously not, and they just left Joyce to twist in the wind.

Maybe it's just that improved video technology in recent years better shows how often the umps are wrong -- and it's not like there weren't some howlers over the years -- but we don't remember there being, back in the day, nearly as many bad calls, or as many outrageously bad calls, as there are now. What do they teach these guys in Umpire School?

[Butch7999]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

... permit a manager at least one challenge during the game, similar to what is allowed in the NFL. And I think there is nothing wrong for the umpires to make the decision that they feel in the best interest of the game they need to go to the videotape...

Much as we hate the idea of reducing the "human element" and having video review in baseball (it's certainly a mixed bag of success and farce in the NFL and NHL), we think Barry's on to something with that suggestion. There's no "slippery slope" or "Pandora's box" of endless replays and complications, as some have suggested, if a simple one-challenge option (or two -- or three as in the NFL, but surely no more than that) is instituted. Save it for a close call on a big play in the late innings of a close game -- was a tag missed on a rally-killing double play? Was a walk-off homer at the pole fair or foul? -- or waste it if you want on a ball-strike call on a 1-1 pitch to the leadoff batter in the 2nd inning. Manager's choice.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by Butch7999

Much as we hate the idea of reducing the "human element" and having video review in baseball (it's certainly a mixed bag of success and farce in the NFL and NHL), we think Barry's on to something with that suggestion. There's no "slippery slope" or "Pandora's box" of endless replays and complications, as some have suggested, if a simple one-challenge option (or two -- or three as in the NFL, but surely no more than that) is instituted. Save it for a close call on a big play in the late innings of a close game -- was a tag missed on a rally-killing double play? Was a walk-off homer at the pole fair or foul? -- or waste it if you want on a ball-strike call on a 1-1 pitch to the leadoff batter in the 2nd inning. Manager's choice.

You want to review balls and strikes now? That's not going to ever happen and it shouldn't. Just a very bad idea.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Also, NOT changing the ruling just gives more kids reason to NOT like baseball. They can see an injustice has been done (yet Major League baseball, I am SURE, will continue to barrage them with messages that say to "do the right thing"), yet when it comes to the powers that be doing "the right thhing" they don't.

Also, it gives minority kids in urban areas something else to think about as far as being discriminated against. Gallaraga has a foreign last name and speaks with a Latin accent. How many kids do you think are out there now feeling that his skin color and nationality had something to do with Selig NOT overturning the call? I say quite a few. Just think about what guys like Milton Bradley, Torii Hunter and a few others have recently said about racism and discrimination in the Majors. Just look at the hype that surrounds the Civil Rights game every year.

The kids see what MLB is trying to project yet hear what some of the players are saying and see a disconnect. So, whether they are right or not, some kids probably feel if the pitcher's name was John Jones and he was a white American, then Selig would have reversed the call.

David

Or they can see the maturity, dignity, and respect for the game that Galaragga displayed.

He did look shocked and in disbelief over the call, but he didn't go into an expletive laced tirade directed at the umpire like some might have.

He went back to work and finished his job, the job that he is paid to do.

At the end of the day he went home, knowing that he did his job well. He went home knowing in fact that regardless of what the record books say and whether he receives formal recognition for it or not, that he did pitch a perfect game. He went home knowing that he did his job the absolute best that it could be done. He knows it, and everbody with an interest in baseball knows it, as do many with no previous interest in baseball.

Originally Posted by calvindog

So you're playing the race card....on this??? Here's some advice: don't. You really do a disservice to the people you are claiming to try to help with this argument.

THANK YOU!

[doug.goodman]

I am in favor of giving him the perfect game.

I am opposed to replay.

This is not a slippery slope, and it does not set a precedent.

Next time the 27th out of a perfect game is botched, and everybody including the runner and umpire are in agreement that it was botched, that will be the next time that a ruling of changing this outcome could be used as a precedent.

But, as timzcardz says, the fact that it won't go in the record book does not change what he did. If I had been at that game, I would have left ready to die happy, knowing that I had seen a perfect game, with an extra out thrown in for good measure.

Harvey Haddix and Ernie Shore were probably getting bored talking to each other, now they can be a threesome.

Doug

[barrysloate]

For the record Pedro Martinez once pitched a nine inning perfect game but both teams were scoreless. He allowed his first hit in the 10th inning. Isn't that pretty much what Haddix did (in three less innings, of course)?

[doug.goodman]

I forgot about that Martinez game. Now I'm wondering if I forgot anybody else, but I'm too lazy to google it.

Doug

[calvindog]

There was also a weather-shortened no hitter as well as an 8 inning no hitter (the pitcher was losing at the time).

[barrysloate]

Dean Chance pitched a five inning perfect game and got credit for a complete game victory. Should that count?

[Robextend]

Andy Hawkins!!! I remember listening to this game on the radio with my dad.

Hawkins was with the New York Yankees when he pitched a no hitter against the Chicago White Sox in Chicago on July 1, 1990. Going into the bottom of the 8th inning, the score was 0-0. Incredibly, after he retired the first two batters, three errors and two walks allowed four runs to score and the Yankees wound up losing 4-0. At the time Hawkins was credited with a no hitter as he had pitched a complete game although his complete game was only 8 innings. The following season, the definition for a no hitter was changed to require a pitcher to pitch at least a 9 inning complete game to be credited with a no hitter. Since Hawkins' complete game was only 8 innings, he lost credit for the no hitter.

[barrysloate]

Here's a simply incredible no-hitter achievement that will never be matched:

In 1965 Jim Maloney pitched a 10 inning no-hitter against the Mets, but gave up two hits in the 11th and lost 1-0. He recorded 18 strikeouts in the game.

Amazing as that was, just a month later he pitched another 10 inning no-hitter against the Cubs. This time he won 1-0. He had 10 walks and 12 strikeouts.

So within one month's time Maloney pitched two 10-inning no-hit games, winning one and losing one. It will never be duplicated.

[hunterdutchess]

Bud Selig is a wimp and would never overturn anything because he would then be exposed by the media for the money sucking (18mill a year) dope that he is. I live here in Detroit and I think as many people dislike Selig now as much as they do Joyce.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It would be madness for Selig to overrule an umpire's judgment call on the field.