Who Are The Hobby's Most Influential New Collectors

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

He was at the party as well.

As we recall he was making sure everyone had a towel
in the men's room, and was often seen moping the floors.

He did make about $15 in tips that evening.

Bruce

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Not that there's anything wrong with that

Heck, you could be a Republican congressman...

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Tom Nieves

"I think part of it is that noone on this board knows."



Jim,

Bruce's question was answered earlier in this thread in the form of a link. It appears that Peter Spaeth was the only person that clicked it.

Related links:

http://www.pionline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071112/REG/71109051/1030/TOC

http://news.morningstar.com/articlenet/article.aspx?id=212834

Tom

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Posted By: John

That's $17 in tips get it right please. Oh and Bruce and next time why don’t “We” give everyone else a courtesy flush it was clear that night that foul stuff comes from the other end of the group not just the mouth to keyboard junk as we all are a custom too at this point.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Priceless!

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Posted By: pas

They be more interested in fighting I think.

The gentleman you referred to certainly appears to be spending with abandon, and perhaps not too wisely,and I presume ebay is only a fraction of what he is buying.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"Good post Bruce."

Yeah, right.

Why don't you tell me again how many PSA 8 and above graded cards you have, Jim.

I seem to have forgotten.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

So this is the most influential new collector in our hobby?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Mike,

I agree--he does post on the most interesting topics on the board. Delivery style is intentional.

Peter,

I was talking about Mr. Dreier--his name came to me on my trip home. Anthony says his collection is best he has ever seen--I would have to see it to believe it is better than Don Spence's.

Whoever made the comment about Scott Ireland making bbig strides as to his collection--I agree. He would be my leading choice to get into the Hall.

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Posted By: pas

He may be more diverse than Don. For example, I have seen scans of some of his incredible group of rare Mikan cards.

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Posted By: paulstratton

...and his incredible collection of rare NonSports cards/sets/types.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

He bought up everything rare that Jeff Mullen sold.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Sorry I missed your question.

That would be a pretty narrow market....but the price would come down.

Its a good question though as in my set collecting when I see that Don and Don and perhaps a few others are fighting it out, I just focus on my other sets I am working on and hope the pop grows by enough to give me a shot at it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Jim. My point is the market needs to be much deeper than two or three bidders in order to sustain itself.

There are many bidders at seemingly every price point, but at the high end it is a select group.

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Posted By: Anonymous

as another investment alternative is fine with me... That only can help the hobby by bringing more interest and money to it. Its nice to have a hobby and collect something that also has some value and in times of need, if one's collection or a portion of it can be sold at prices higher than purchased than thats great. Whether you collect t206 beaters or PSA 8 Crackerjacks, its all good for the hobby and good that people from all levels of wealth can enjoy the same hobby. It does sometimes seem that there are always attacks on these boards against the wealthy who choose to collect hi grade cards or rare and expensive cards...why? It sometimes appears rather childish when attacks are continually made against those collectors who limit their collection to super expensive cards or high grade...who cares? we are all collectors. If money was no object, as a collector, I would be trying to buy the nicest cards i could find and for some collectors where money is no object thats what they are trying to do and good for them.

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Posted By: brian

[My own sense is that the biggest buyers of vintage cards continue to be Louchious and Spence and the ceo with a museum in Cali(name escapes me). Perhaps Scott Ireland as well. Believe Merkel and Fogel not nearly as active.]

They are only the most recognized. A low profile collector named Crider(sp?) from the midwest likely has more quality vintage than these guys added together. Rumored to own 5% of all the pre-1950 vintage ever graded by PSA across the board (sports and non-sports).

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

Well, I know right now that I'm kinda feeling like a big timer...

I got outbid by Don Louchios in an ebay auction tonight (it was only an approximate $100 item, but still)!!!



Steve

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"If money was no object, as a collector, I would be trying to buy the nicest cards i could find..."

Great. More power to ya.

But would you then

a) Constantly brag about all the "one-of-a-kind" acquisitions you've made, while sharing no photos or information of value?

b) Constantly remind us all that you have more PSA 8s (and above) than God?

c) Let us all know each time you've successfully resubmitted your cards to PSA and gotten the grades bumped? (Do the bumped cards magically change somehow and become aesthetically more pleasing?)

If you answered yes to any of the above there might be a person or two here who would feel your behavior was childish and obnoxious.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

This thread is the standard by which all future hyperbole will measured. It's really amazing to have such a high concentration of it in one thread. In fact, it is the single most important and influential thread in the history of the hobby. More important and influential than all other threads combined. It is rumored to contain 5% of all hyperbole used on Net54.

I think most board members are failing to see what makes the hobby's elite collectors so much more superior to the know-it-all knowledge traders that have no impact on the market. The Crandalls and Bruces of the hobby not only possess unimaginable wealth, but each relies on an extremely desercning eye.

Incidentally, the classic baseball documentary "When It Was A Game" was on HBO today. While I was watching it, I thought of you, Jim.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

My suspicion is that the people who care most about who has the biggest and the best are the people who only wish that they could compete at that level.

The people who are AT that level probably don't care very much about who's collection is bigger or better. They may "compete" on individual sets, but with very few exceptions, I don't think they "compete" as a whole. They compete all day long at work. They're too intelligent and rational to consider this hobby a life or death struggle.

That said, I believe the hobby will always entertain new players at every level, as people begin to make their fortunes. They will get in and out of the hobby - some will become long-time collectors, and others will get out as quickly as they got in. It's been that way forever. I certainly wouldn't take it as any major, earth-shattering hobby development. I think nobody on this board has had a problem winning the auction lots they were interested in, despite the presence of these new, major players.

-Al

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Is that the people who actually worry about who has the biggest and the best are the ones who have the smallest and the worst. If you are secure in your own skin you don't need to keep comparing wee-wees with everyone else. But we've been down this psychological path before, haven't we? That's why I said their act is getting tired. The Bruces post reminds me of my 3 year old niece, who disrupts every adult conversation that doesn't include her with "I pooped." The Bruces say "poop" and we all jump up to check their diapers.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Going forward, instead of "Best. Thread. Ever." or "I like applesauce," whenever there's a dumb thread that doesn't involve me, I'm just going to post "I pooped."

-Al

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Posted By: DD

I just want to know when "they" bid on and win something in an auction, just how many of them pay for the item. Wonka said "they" would offer 1/2 the value. But if 4 of the "we" are paying, is it 4 times as much, so twice the value, or do they divide the half amongst the 4 of them?

This higher math is confusing.

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Posted By: John

Chad and Doug have an amazing collection truly awe inspiring, but influential? Perhaps to the gang at SCP and other auction houses who have benefited from their passionate collecting. But at the end of the day I don’t think anyone collector or small handful of wealthy collectors will change the hobby forever I think even Doug and his Dad would agree with me on that.

The only folks who have the power to change the hobby are all of us, the hobby is bigger than a few fat wallets and I think that really burns Jim and Bruce up a bit.

Bruce because he’s not a fat wallet and deeply longs to be, and Jim because no matter how much he spends and no matter how many self serving PSA articles and posts are written here or in PSA driven propaganda flyers and web pages it won’t matter.

At the end of the day folks will just keep on collecting what they can and the bulk of them will always say “Jim who?” and go about their collecting lives without influence.

Don’t agree with me that’s ok, but step back and take the romance out of it. Carter and Nagy’s collections have come and gone, Halper’s collection too. We’re all still collecting the fact that Mr. Carter had an amazing collection of T206’s hasn’t impacted my collecting of them, the only influence he had on me was that of admiration of our hobby and the passion of the man's collecting.

In the end true admiration & influence is something you earn you don’t buy when it comes to this hobby. IMO

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Crider--good one Brian.

You're correct Al--I do wish I could compete at the highest level--secretly I think most do--but everyone has a budget and a limit so while I may not get a complete T206 set in PSA 8 or better, I am happy with what I have.

Iseecon,

Of course you are right. Virtually all collectors want the nicest cards they can find but have to make comprimises based upon their ability to do so.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

This thread is crap, and should mercifully drift to the bottom of the page, then over to the next...

the HOBBY'S most influential COLLECTORS... That, in my mind, precludes a discussion of investors, 'cause it's about collectors. And it precludes folks fooling with cards for business, because the thread title says 'hobby'.


So who is influencing the collectors? Not who is influencing the 3 or 4 or half dozen or dozen deepest pockets.

Bruce mentions Ted Z, then goes on to say that Ted can't be one in the 7-5-08 3:22pm post. Well Bruce changed the parameters there, 'cause he says Ted is out because he's talking about the market. Well that isn't the hobby, which is what this thread started with...

I'd say Ted would be out, if at all, because he might not fit the 'new' definition. And I don't think he's really that old...



I don't think there are NEW folks who are COLLECTORS who are having a significant INFLUENCE on the HOBBY. Folks/entities that are influencing the hobby would be the publishers of the Beckett stuff, the Krause stuff, and to a lesser extent Old Cardboard (lesser because they have few subscribers relative to the others).

Since no one has actually answered Bruce's initial post, let us allow this thread to unravel into the oblivion of the second page, please.

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Posted By: Preece1

I am probably in the minority here, but I do believe that Bruce's questions are some the most thought-provoking ones on the board. I also agree that the majority of his questions could be written in a less combative manner. But, in person, the persona that rubs so many of this board's members the wrong way vanishes and you are left with an individual that does have a lot of hobby information to give.

As to his question - Since it only takes two bidders to influence the price of a card, I agree that the entrance and exit of wealthy collectors (or as some here would say, investors) does have a large impact on card values. From my point of view, there has not been a change in the "players" for expensive 19th century cards, depending on the specific card. For example, California League Old Judge cards will bring three specific bidders once the card hits $50,000. All three are well known board members. There are five bidders that will be tend to be involved in Four Base Hits hofers as you approach six figures. The list can go on and on for many specific cards. I believe this will be the case for some time in the 19th century area because with most of the specific cases, there are only 1-3 cards of each player in existence and the chances of getting the card again in the near future is limited at best. Does this mean this total group of 10 collectors has a great deal of influence on the prices of a 20-30 19th century cards, absolutely. Does this mean that they influence the 19th century collecting as a whole, no. I think where Bruce places to much importance is on the 20-30 cards that will be significantly impacted by wealthy individuals entering the hobby. This same examples can be done for 20th century cards (1914 Ruth, E107 Matty, E107, Wager, T210 Jackson, etc.)

To me, when mentioning the word "impact", it is too often solely refering to "price impact", and not true hobby impact. The Jay Miller's of this hobby with their Old Judge project, the Ted Z's of this hobby with their T206 contributions, the "M104/105" article in the most recent Old Cardboard, is where I believe the true hobby impacts are made.

But, this hobby should be strong enough for someone like Bruce (who granted likes to push people's buttons) to ask a question without personal attacks. If you don't like the question, let it go, there are other articles to read.

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Posted By: Dave F

I think Bruce posts on the board are geniune and not meant to be just plain attention getters. I don't follow all his posts, but even when they get out of hand I don't see him jumping back in every two minutes and throwing gas on a fire. He is not what I'd consider my "neighbor" in Alpharetta to be with one of his many homes...which is a publicity getter.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

OOh--my neighbor stabs me with a knife to the heart--but I am still offering to treat him to dinner at a place of his choosing in the upscale suburb he resides in.

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Posted By: Dave F

Come now Jim. It was in your back. Not your heart.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

Are you around in late August or is that the time you usually take your luxury cruise to the Carribean?

Jim

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Posted By: Dave F

Oh and Jim...would your invitation also include coming to the trailer park to pick me up? Gas has gotten the best of me...it's either gas or the low grade ugly cards you'd just as soon throw up on as to look at.

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Posted By: Dave F

"Dave,

Are you around in late August or is that the time you usually take your luxury cruise to the Carribean?

Jim"


Depends on the week Jim. Third week of August I'm scheduled to be down in south Georgia picking cotton out of the fields in exchange for some bubble mailers.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

I will bring my PSA 9 pre-war Hall-of-Famers and you bring your ugliest cards you can find......I guarantee you we will have some laughs....

Just get rid of one of your housekeepers--your cash flow will improve significantly--

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Good post Preece 1.

It is not necessarily a given that the high end collectors will purchase the top 10-20 rarities.

There is a marked preference among all the "influential buyers" I know well to build high grade sets--they will upgrade 8s with 9s and 9s with 10s and compete vigorously for low pop commons. We are talking T-cards, Goudeys, Cracker Jacks, Play Balls, American Caramels not 67 Topps.

And I agree with you on Bruce--who cares about his tone--its a pre-war board and in my opinion his posts are consistently the best there are.

Jim

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Posted By: John

“But, this hobby should be strong enough for someone like Bruce (who granted likes to push people's buttons) to ask a question without personal attacks.”

Patrick I respect you a lot and you’re are a one of kind collector IMO, and I do agree with you to a degree. But where does Bruce’s responsibility reside in the above, at what point do people have to be subjected to “winners and losers” emails, pointless lawsuit threats, class war and other personal attacks via the inbox?

IMO Bruce has made his own bed, and any real “great thought” provoking questions tend to go the wayside after actions like that…

Case in point from a personal point of view, you have bought more $$$ cards than I could ever imagine at this point in my financial life, but I can talk to you without being talked down too. You don’t seem to hate anyone who’s not in your tax bracket, you have no elitists hang ups. I don’t think Bruce understands just how far having an attitude like that of yours could take him, he could really learn a lesson from you as could certain others on this board.

But once again your influence to the hobby comes across in your passion for what you’re doing not the prices you’re paying. IMO

P.S. Just got your email, I’ll contact you this week when I get back from Asia.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Preece... I don't agree with your rationale.


A few financially well off folks who bid up the value of an extremely rare card have no effect on me. Nor do they affect most of us hobbyists. Most of us will never own a T206 Wagner. And while we contemplate such ownership, fantasize about owning one, watch the Wagner auctions, and enjoy the posts about the Wagner cards; that doesn't affect us because we won't ever own one. Most of us here won't ever own a T231 Fan card. So the next time one sells, we'll all be interested in it, but it doesn't afftct us at all. It won't influence our collecting.


I think the accurate answer to Bruce's question would be that there are no new collectors who have any appreciable influence on the hobby.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I stopped reading the posts in this thread once I came to this.

John (Wonka): "In the end true admiration & influence is something you earn you don’t buy when it comes to this hobby."

Well said, my friend! This is a great statement to apply to how we conduct ourselves, not just in hobby-related matters, but in every step of our day-to-day lives. I think that every side of this needless, heated debate can all come together and agree with this one.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

The only use the price of a T206 Wagner has for me is when I discuss my obsession with the uninitiated. All they want to know is "what's the most expensive?" I've always felt that "how much" was a superficial question worthy only of non-collectors. Far more intriguing is "why"; that question is what the influential collectors try to answer with their research, writings and posts. I may not agree with Ted Z. on the characteristics of some card issues but his analysis on T206's intricacies is fascinating and influential. Focusing on spending alone misses the point.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: T206Collector

I think some people collect baseball cards for status-related reasons. The only trouble is, for those people, just having the cards isn't enough, because if the collection isn't public then nobody will be able to bestow upon the collector the status that he yearns for. Kind of like, if a collector had 3 T206 Wagners but nobody knew about it, would anyone think that collector was the coolest collector in the world.

Every time I read a post like this, I cannot help but read into it a certain amount of asking for status to be bestowed upon the author. But as has been more eloquently written throughout this thread, status is earned and is seldom given, either by asking for it or paying for it. Moreover, trying to rank one's collection against someone else's is not only elitist, but also fundamentally flawed in premise, since what makes a truly remarkable baseball card collection is as subjective as defining beauty in art. Money, or how much a collection or card is worth, is a poor substitute for defining a truly exemplary collection.



_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: Richard

Crider--good one Brian.



Jim, I think he is referring to Jack Cryder. The man is a recluse. From what I've heard, more quantity than quality. Hundreds of thousands of Pre-1960 cards in graded slabs.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

that's like being the toughest Muppet or the bravest military man in France.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Anonymous

Richard,

Wow-I am impressed.

Hundreds of thousands of cards in slabs? That is a massive amount if true.

Would love to know what he has if anyone has any more details surrounding this.

Thanks,

Jim

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Posted By: JC

What about that George Dreier fellow? Isn't he supposed to own an entire town and has vaults piled full of cards?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

JC,

I mentioned Dreier's name earlier and someone else provided clarification here. He has a museum with several armed guards--also, his collection is not just cards. Supposedly, an absolutely stunning collection(very influential).

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Posted By: Steve Murray

George Dreyer, the fellow with all of the vaults in all of the banks in his rinky dinky town with the renowned R. Chad Dreier and his son Doug of Southern California.

The Dreier collection from all reports is fabulous.

The Dreyer collection may in fact be a figment of his imagination.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I keep my arms dryer with my stunning collection of Right Guard. This helps with my influents. Does this count?

-Al

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Chad and Doug have a stellar collection of Americana, are very nice gentlemen, and are NOT at all public about what they own or what they spend. As with many collectors, they love the Hobby, not the wee-wee size comparisons.

There are lots of collectors with great, great cards who do not court publicity, which is why this topic is so silly at its core.

Edited to add: Al

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

If The Bruce's really sent those emails to Josh I don't understand how any of you can support this type of behavior, regardless of the merit of his questions. Bruce shows time and time again that he is a wanna-be, pompous, arrogant jerk.

I swear Jim, you must wait for times when you can go aganst the general populous of this board. You must salivate when there appears to be an opening for you to spew you rhetoric. How do you justify coming to the defense of Bruce when he did what he did to Josh? Don't worry, I'm sure you will just ignore this post.

To attack someone for becoming a teacher is probably one of the lowest moments I have ever witnessed on this board and you should all be ashamed of yourself.

Josh, you are doing more good for this world than all these guys combined, so don't sweat it one bit. May be that kind of behvior is tolerated in your little areas of New York but it certainly shouldn't be here on our little corner of the internet.

-Rhett

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Of course I agree that the Dreiers are complete gentlemen, some of the most wonderful people in the hobby. The same can be said for many of the people at the "top" of the hobby, if you define "top" by size or dollar value of the collection. I tend to define the "top" of the hobby by knowledge, access to other collectors, willingness to share information, and overall approachability.

I suppose I would define "influence" differently than Bruce appears to be doing in the title of this thread. Perhaps "influential" was a poor choice of words. Obviously it's interesting and newsworthy when someone new enters the hobby with a lot of money to spend, and the actual post doesn't really question the buyers' "influence" as much as it queries who these new buyers might be. I think that's a worthwhile question to ask.

All that being said, it never ceases to amaze me that there is actually animosity in this hobby between various collectors that is driven by the way they choose to collect. I understand that Bruce has a lovely collection. I've seen Jim's collection several times, and it is also quite beautiful. I don't understand - nor will I ever - why there is so much smugness and animosity thrown around the hobby by the various people who consistently engage in this battle.

I tend to think it would be a hell of a lot more productive if everyone treated one another with a modicum of respect. I realize that's probably impossible, given all the past references to rotting in shacks, hobby backbones, slabheads and cert buyers. Imagine, though, what we could learn if we all decided to share our knowledge in a productive sort of way?

-Al