Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Jack - I don't think either autograph is authentic. If I thought they had a chance of being authentic, I would have taken Shelly up on his $1000 bet .

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Marino's greatest fear is that someone would check the ink on his signatures. There was no problem with the paper because he would use old books and magazines. He spent hundreds of dollars buying old ink in original sealed bottles. He was told by the FBI that he wasted his time and money because they could not really tell when the ink was produced.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I guess that was a pretty irrational worry.

Especially so because his "vintage" stuff was so bad a blind man could spot 'em.

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Posted By: Anonymous

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&it em=250387466485

Check out this mantle ball on ebay is it real??? J/K pretty sad actually unless it's just put up as a joke.

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Posted By: john

Fountain pen ink can be postively identified to its manufacturer. The only problem is that many of the fountain pen ink manufacturers were in business for 50+ years so all you get is a range. As for ball point ink pens, the major manufacturers slightly alter their formulas each year which "year tags" the ink. Ball point ink, post 1971 (when they began year tagging) can and is regularly identiied to a specific year in criminal and civil cases. Write your name three times in three diferent fountain pen inks and send it to Dr. Al lyter. He'll tell you exactly which ink each was signed in.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I'll gladly try that.

Are you picking up the tab?

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Posted By: Dan H

I have been collecting autographs a long time. The authenticators have a much better handle on things then people here give them credit for. I can understand to people who do not have the knowledge/experience in this particular area of the hobby that this seems to be a very inexact science. I can tell you though that it is usually pretty clear cut. Signatures jump off the page as good/bad when you look at enough of them. One of the great misconceptions is that the Marino stuff was good or high quality. It wasn't. Can spot it a mile away. No need to get involved in ink testing on this stuff.

That all said I am ready to put my money where my mouth is on that $1000 bet. The second mantle, the one with the DiMaggio (which I am not speaking to) is real. And I will take that $1000 bet that shelly jaffe put out there. Challenge. I bet the 2nd one will pass PSA/DNA. 1st one (the business card) is definately fake.

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Posted By: Fred C

Shelly,

Looks like Dans has thrown down the gauntlet!

Dan,

How would you intend to prove the second auto is real and the first auto is not? Do you send it to 5 different autograph experts and the first 3 out of 5 that say it's real (or not) will decide who pays up?

Shelly, if Dan can find a few experts that say the second one is real do you think you can find a couple of experts that say it's not?

I've got a million virtual dollars that says NOBODY will really know for sure...

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Posted By: Dan H

He said one of the major authenticators. I will live with the decision of PSA/DNA because in my experience they are the best. Send to them. If they say yes I win, if they say no I lose.

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Posted By: Andrew S.

Richard, most of the attempts to pin down ink to an exact timeframe has been in the contesting of Last Wills and Testaments and very seldom has it been used for autograph authentication purposes. Here is just one example from a court case in Hong Kong where "dueling" experts opined regarding a wealthy Chinese man's will and they couldn't agree on what year the signature in question was penned:


http://www.rileywelch.com/HK%20Judgment_21NOV2002_bookmarks.pdf

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Thanks for the info, some very interesting reading there.
==

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Dan, have the person who put up the pictures place the item in auction on Ebay. We can do a quick opinion from psa to start this. I can tell you that you will loose this bet. The same items are in the new cc corner auction and all over the net. Please send the money in hundred dollar bills. Just to make sure the bet is on I will send a money order to Leon to hold Or any other person of your choosing.I will pay jsa fee for authenticating the item if Romeo is will willing to send it to him. The following authenticators can be included, Morales,Frangipani, william tell, global or aau.


Shelly

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Meant to say can not be included.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Is there going to be a bet here or not? If so can I get a piece,,
==

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Andrew S.

This is a bad bet. Not saying that anyone here would do so, but if someone at PSA/DNA would be made aware of this thread, all of the above signatures might be automatically awarded the dreaded "Unable to verify authenticity" determination.

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Posted By: Tim Kinserlow

The top Mantle signature is a forgery, and the bottom Mantle signature is legit/authentic(pose with Dimaggio). I stand behind that.

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Posted By: Dan H

Look I will go ahead with this but reluctantly. Not because I am afraid of losing, but because this has the potential to cause more controversey then it is worth. My initial reaction to this was "great! an easy $1000," but as I thought about it more, I don't want to put the authenticators on the spot here any more than they are. They provide our hobby a valuable service. There are lots of people out there constantly looking to find fault with these guys and hack reporters out to sandbag them and I don't want to give people another chance to bash them regardless of the outcome. Given what you have been through I am sure you know a few guys in the legitimate authentication business (one thing we can agree on is that the authenticators you excluded are of no use to me either) who perhaps can help you out here and save you a few dollars.

And a quickopinion would not be fair to me, you or the authenticators, that should be avoided as a disposition to this bet. But you are free to run one on your own before going forward with this bet if you like, I strongly suggest you do.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

I want tell everyone that is on this site. that I was wrong. The mantle is good and I would like to thank Dan for allowing to get out of the bet before the money was sent. It goes that I am not as smart as I think I am.

Shelly

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Posted By: scott stimell

everyone get a grip!!!
that mantle next to the dimaggio is 100 percent good!!! the mantle above the biz card is definately not .. just putting an end to this discussion now you can all move onto something more impt!!!!! like who is getting thrown off american idol!!!!

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Posted By: Steve

If 100 people posted here we would get 50 different
opinions, the truth of the matter is unless you are there
when it is being signed you really are just guessing.


Even the 3 or 4 'experts' have not agreed.

Steve

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

So we have experts in disagreement on a Mickey Mantle signature?

Just reinforces my opinion that you shouldn't trust a signature you didn't get in person or that doesn't have 100% rock solid provenance.

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Posted By: leon

I think either one is good and one is bad, or both are good, or both are bad. And I am fairly sure of that.... This is my rendition of autograph authenticating.....

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Posted By: Tim Kinserlow

Yes, but Steve, if a person truly knows what to look for in a legit Mantle signature, they are easy to spot.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Is a Mantle signature easier to authenticate than a Sal Bando signature?

Thanks!

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Posted By: Anonymous

No problem, glad you saw the light on this one.

I am sorry the card guys don't see this, but when you know what you are looking at, these calls are pretty easy to make.

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Posted By: Romeo

Geeeeezeee I was gonna post a couple more Mantles but after this broooohaha am not sure but I am sure of one thing I appreciate everyones thoughts on these and respect everyones opinion.

Thank Romeo

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Posted By: Fred C

Dan,

Nice - I love that Sal Bando thing. That was funny.

Romeo,

Do you have any Ruth autographs you can post? It would be really special if you could locate a 1960 Leaf Ruth with his signature!

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Posted By: Douglas

I could be wrong, but it appears there was a rest in the signature between the L and the E in Mantle.

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Posted By: Romeo

Hi Fred
am sorry the only ruth I can post is the only one I own