Relative rarity of Cobb SOV 460 to BL 460, DRUM, LENOX, UZIT ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Peter - I do not believe any T215 Pirate Cobb has been found to date, although many have speculated that it could exist.

Ted - I do not quite understand your question about what "population" has to do with anything. As Dan said, population is everything. You are trying to verify if any more than 4 Sov 460s exist. There is discussion if there are 12, 13 or 14 Ty Cobb backed cards that exist. This is all about population and rarity. We are not talking about graded population. Just population. That is the whole point of your thread.

As for T213s, I do not believe any of the 3 issues should be considered in this rarity discussion (single digit population). Clearly Type 1 is the toughest of the 3 series, but I have owned 2 examples myself. They are not in the ballpark.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

A couple of posts above you responded to my inclusion of the 1910 COUPON Cobb to this discussion with......
"Ted - I don't think that the type 1 Coupon has a population, graded and ungraded, anywhere near that of Cobb
back."
Hey guys, I was specifically referring to this comment, not the general use of the word "population" as applied to
BB cards.
You have taken what I said out of context....perhaps, you clicked onto the "Bottom of page" link and didn't read
the prior posts.

In any event, Richard you've owned two COUPON Type 1 Cobb's; and, I know of two more. So, we have accoun-
ted for at least 4 such Cobb's.

Is that a "population", or what ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: dstudeba

I read all of the posts in this thread, I do not believe I took anything out of context.

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Ted - I reread all of the posts as well and don't quite see how I took you out of context.

I have seen probably close to a dozen Type 1 Coupon Red Port Cobbs over the last 4-5 years.

I do not believe that this puts this issue in the ballpark of the other really tough Red Port Cobb backs that we are discussing.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I was not referring to you with that comment.

We've had some good discussions on this forum over the years....do not mistake my argumentative comments with you
in this thread.
I guess I am one of those, who firmly believe that the 1910 COUPON (type 1) issue get's no respect as an integral part
of the T206 set. My research indicates that it is the 16th basic T-brand printed by American Litho.

This scan illustrates this fact better than any words can......




The T206 Subjects on the front of these 5 backs were printed and issued in the Summer of 1910 (first American Beauty)
thru to the Fall of 1910. DRUM might have been late in 1910.

Best regards to you


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

Ted,
You must mean the 17th brand, right?
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You wouldn't be alluding to this guy....would you ?





Hey guy, now we know he's circa 1910....could be....or should be the 17th T-brand


T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Nice T213-1 Coupon you showed. Jefferson would be proud of you!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Donavon Arabie

Since there are so many Type 1 Coupon Cobb Red Portraits, anyone know of a decent one for sell?

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Ted -

No worries. We do have some good passionate discussions. You will find no argument from me about the T213-1 being part of the T206 set.

At the end of the day, what is included and not included under the T206 umbrella matters most to only T206 collectors. It also has a huge impact on valuation, as a "rarity" under the T206 umbrella is simply a rarity when compared to the rest of the mostly mass produced issue.

Take any of those rarities out from under the umbrella and their rarity disappears and their valuation along with it.

However, the argument could work the other way as well. If you were to break out your Sovereign 460 subset from under the T206 umbrella and give it its own independent ACC number, then maybe your Cobb Red Port would not get lost in the "just another back" shuffle and get the respect it deserves, along with the valuation is deserves as well.

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a

Richard,

The Coupon type 1 is under the T206 umbrella.

I would say that the T213 type 1 Cobb is very difficult to find. I'm not sure where I was when you saw a dozen type 1 cobbs over the past few years??

Sure they weren't the same few cards selling over and over? I think you're exaggerating! By the way, where do you find all these cards?
Anyways, I think Ted made his point well. The T206 Cobb Red with Sovereign 460 back is a lot harder than we thought.

Again, I'd be willing to bet that the Sweet Cap 350-460 fact. 25 Ty Cobb Red Portrait is VERY uncommon too, but nobody cares. It's not sexy enough.


Good conversation guys! It's nice to hear banter about cards.



Rob

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I don't do POP reports, but I do my own surveys. Check-out this Red Cobb survey, I think
it will confirm what you just said regarding the Sweet Cap 460/25 card......

T206 Cobb (red portrait)

14....OLD MILL

35....PIEDMONT 350

42....POLAR BEAR

5.....SOVEREIGN 350

10....SWEET CAP 350

12....PIEDMONT 460/25

1.....PIEDMONT 460/42

1.....SOVEREIGN 460

2.....SWEET CAP 460/25

8.....SWEET CAP 460/30

5.....ALL OTHER BACKS


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I started this thread speaking about having completed my all-SOVEREIGN set.

If anyone here wants to try this adventure, I have done all the "heavy ground work".
So, sit back and go for it. You don't need the "Big Six" or the 48 Southern Leaguers.

Here's the break-down of the cards you will need in each series......

# of cards....SERIES

151..............150 (no Lundgren, Magie, Plank, Wagner & Jennings has a Sov 350 back)

204..............350 (66 No Prints)

..46..............460 [no Kleinow (Boston) or Smith (Boston & Chi)]

...6..............460 (6 super-prints)
----
407 total


Enjoy the challenge, it is probably the most affordable of the major T-brand sub-sets.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Donavon Arabie

The following are excerpts of the only T213-1 Cobb Red Portrait that I have seen for auction in the last 10 years (REA-2006). I do not believe it to be as "populated" as some have stated. I have actively been searching for one for years now.

"We believe that the T213-1 of Ty Cobb is just as rare (or possibly even rarer) than the legendary T206 Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb Tobacco back. The Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back card, of course, is one of card collecting's most famous and valuable tobacco cards, while the T213-1 Cobb is a little known and somewhat exotic rarity. The similarities of the T213-1 Coupon Cigarettes of Ty Cobb to its T206 counterpart, however, are great, and a reasonable case can also be made that the T213-1 Coupon set can lay far better claim to being a part of the T206 series than the legendary Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back card."

"Over the years Robert Edward Auctions has handled the sale of eight of the approximately twelve known examples of T206 Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb Back cards. This is the first example of the T213-1 Ty Cobb card that we can recall ever offering."

Again...if you know of one for sale or trade, please email me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

So where does all of this leave us???


A Cobb red portrait T206 Sov 460 is a difficult card to locate.

It is found less often than a T206 card with a BL 460, Drum, Lenox or Uzit back (that being any T206 with that particular back).

It is found more often than a Cobb red portrait with a BL 460, Drum, Lenox or Uzit back.

Red Cross, Victory, Ty Cobb, and Coupon are not generally accepted T206 backs, they are backs for cards belonging elsewhere. (I understand some folks think the Ty Cobb back belongs in T206, I don't, the cards have glossy fronts, inconsistent with T206s. And I think Mr. Burdick had sound reasons for separating Coupons off to themselves, what Jefferson Burdick has put asunder, let no collector reunite.)

And it is quite interesting to contemplate the timeline of when American Litho printed (and when tobacco companies distributed) red portrait Cobb cards across all of the brands.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

DOUBLE POST

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This last statement of your's is an excellent one, and worthy of a response......

"And it is quite interesting to contemplate the timeline of when American Litho printed (and
when tobacco companies distributed) red portrait Cobb cards across all of the brands."


Here goes, and I hope Scot Reader chimes in here....if my timeline is off-base.

This timeline applies to the Red portrait Cobb.


......................350-only Series............................................ .....460 extension of 350 Series

Winter 1909......Spring 1910......Summer 1910............Fall 1910........Winter 1910/Spring 1911

Piedmont
Sweet Cap........Sovereign.......American Beauty........Broad Leaf..............Sovereign 460
EPDG..................Old Mill...............Cycle...................Coupon. ...............Piedmont 460
.............................................Ty Cobb back............Drum...................Sweet Cap 460
..............................................Pola r Bear..........................................Leno x, Uzit
...............................................Tol stoi..............Carolina Brights...........Red Hindu
.................................................. .................................................. .Broad Leaf 460


Hope this provides you a realistic timeline.....it may be subject to minor adjustment,


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Great, Ted.

Now please add to that chronology the Victory, Red Cross, and Ty
Cobb backed red portrait Cobb cards. Make it a chronology of
American Litho Cobb red portrait cards.

I see you sneaked Coupon in there in the fall of 1910, I'd have
thought winter, but would not have included it in a T206 only
listing.

I'm thinking Victory is winter 1910, Red Cross winter 1910, and Ty
Cobb back spring of 1911 (because it seems a bit of an
'afterthought' card, slick front and all).

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

Thanks to all.

What I'd love to see is a spreadsheet breaking down T206 by backs so a collector could see every possible back front combo and decide perhaps on doing a brand set on that basis.

And FWIW, T213-1 sure looks like a T206 back, but couldn't it also be a result of laziness on the part of the designers ("Hey, that old design looks fine; let's just reuse it.")?

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Note that I have included the Ty Cobb backed card in the Summer of 1910.

I based this date on the recent find of newspaper clippings announcing the Ty Cobb (pipe) Smoking Tobacco (dated
mid-1910).

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I now see that...

So where would you put Victory and Red Cross backed Cobb red
portrait cards?

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Ted -

That is fantastic information. All of this should be hard documented. Seriously.

[Archive]

Posted By: mark s.

sir ted-
wow... yet another sample of your exquisite work!
thank you for sharing this with us.
i am curious why you placed polar bear as late (summer '10) in the sequence as you did...
if pb red cobbs are amongst the MOST common, wouldn't it be logical that they were originally distributed at approximately the same time (fall '09) as the other most common examples (p 350 & sc 350)?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I place the initial POLAR BEAR release sometime between May to June of 1910. And, the
Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) are the determining factors for this. Neither NY
variations are found with POLAR BEAR backs. But, we know that both St. Louis variations
only exist with POLAR BEAR backs.

Both Demmitt and O'Hara started the 1910 season with their respective St. Louis teams.
By May 1910, both were sent down to the Eastern (AAA) League. Demmitt to Montreal
and O'Hara to his hometown team, Toronto.

Due to their Minor League re-assignment, these two St Louis variation cards were short-
printed by American Litho.....and, that is why these two T206 Subjects are big $$$$.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Per your request, I have added the T215 Red Cross (Type 1) red Cobb to this Timeline.

The T215 (Type 2), the T213 (Type 2 & 3) and the Victory (T214) red Cobb's were issued beyond the scope
of this Timeline (1912-1915).


This timeline applies to the Red portrait Cobb.


......................350-only Series............................................ .....460 extension of 350 Series

Winter 1909......Spring 1910......Summer 1910............Fall 1910........Winter 1910/Spring 1911

Piedmont
EPDG................Sovereign.......American Beauty........Broad Leaf..............Sovereign 460
Sweet Cap..........Old Mill...............Cycle...................Coupon. ...............Piedmont 460
.............................................Ty Cobb back............Drum...................Sweet Cap 460
..............................................Pola r Bear..........................................Leno x, Uzit
...............................................Tol stoi..............Carolina Brights...........Red Hindu
.................................................. .................................................. .Broad Leaf 460
.................................................. .................................................. .Red Cross (Type 1)


I dated the Red Cross (Type 1) in very late 1910 to early 1911 because many of the Subjects in this set are
also in the T206 350/460 Series.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Did I leave out any other Red Cobb Tobacco issues on this Timeline ?

You've got me doing "overtime" homework here.....anyhow, it's a labor of love

Perhaps, I'll expand this timeline further into 1911 to include more of the 460 Series T-backs.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you, Ted!!

I think that it would be enlightening to carry the timeline on into 1912... add Victory, and the other later type cards of Coupon and Red Cross if they used the Cobb red portrait.

What you said up there, or somewhere, about Cobb's red portrait being the most used card image is significant, I think.

FW

And have a big time at the show next week!! Hope you sell piles of stuff, so Brinks has to escort you home.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Responding to your comment......
"What you said up there, or somewhere, about Cobb's red portrait being the most used card image is significant,
I think."


I think you are alluding to my dubbing of the Red Cobb portrait as American Lithographic's "signature picture".....
in their baseball card Tobacco issues. And, indeed it is.....he Red Cobb is all over the place.

I count 24 different T-backs just in the T206 issue. Then we have the COUPON, the Red Cross, and the Victory
issues.
And, of course the Ty Cobb (pipe) Smoking Tobacco card.

Any more out there ?

Yes, even the some of the Caramel Co. issues depict this red portrait Cobb. The Williams Caramel (E103) comes
to my mind.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Aside from E103, other issues that have the same portrait of Cobb:

E254
E270
W600
M116

[Theoldprofessor]

In response to an earlier question in this thread....

I currently own well over 600 T206s, including several LENOXs and a couple of Drums. I have exactly one (1) SOV 460 - Arlie Latham. (Listed with PSA as SOV, but without further refinement.)