Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

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Posted By: J Hull

Hi Scot,
I think that you're right. There's clearly a connection between the 8 Hindu no-prints and the 6 Texas League subjects. Population reports are somewhat sketchy, but I think theyre ok for showing trends. I compared some numbers in SGC's pop reports and came up with a pretty interesting one.

The first number is population of Piedmont-backed examples, and the second number is the population of Old Mill-backed examples. I've then listed the difference.

Revelle = 17/37 = Old Mill +20
Helm = 16/35 = +19
Carey = 23/34 = +11
Foster = 18/28 = +10
Manion = 19/29 = +10
Mullaney = 21/31 = +10
Shaughnessy = 20/29 = +9
Coles = 19/26 = +7
Ellam = 16/23 = +7
Hickman = 21/28 = +7
Cranston = 23/29 = +6
Hooker = 21/27 = +6
Howard = 26/32 = +6
McCauley = 18/24 = +6
Paige = 19/24 = +5
Reagan = 22/27 = +5
Greminger = 24/28 = +4
Bernhard = 24/27 = +3
Kiernan = 26/29 = +3
Smith (Atlanta) = 23/26 = +3
Guiheen = 26/28 = +2
Thornton = 25/27 = +2
Jordan = 26/27 = +1
Lipe = 25/26 = +1
Ryan = 24/25 = +1
Perdue = 21/21 = 0


Breitenstein = 27/26 = Piedmont +1
Otey = 26/25 = +1
Violat = 25/24 = +1
Fritz = 25/23 = +2
Hart (Montgomery) = 32/29 = +3 Hindu no-print
Lafitte = 26/23 = +3
Bay = 26/21 = +5
Persons = 30/22 = +8
Hart (Little Rock) = 36/25 = +11 Hindu no-print
Miller = 38/25 = +13 Texas Leaguer
Stark = 36/23 = +13 Texas Leaguer
Molesworth = 35/19 = +16
Bastian = 45/28 = +17 Texas Leaguer
Seitz = 38/20 = +18 Hindu no-print
Orth = 47/28 = +19 Hindu no-print
Smith (Shreveport) = 40/21 = +19 Texas Leaguer
White = 42/23 = +19 Texas Leaguer
King = 40/20 = +20 Hindu no-print
Thebo = 46/26 = +20 Texas Leaguer
Westlake = 45/25 = +20 Hindu no-print
Rockenfeld = 45/23 = +22 Hindu no-print
Lentz (Sentz) = 50/18 = +32 Hindu no-print

I think this fairly clearly suggests that the Texas leaguers and Hindu no-prints were printed together. Not only do they lack Hindu backs, but their proportion of Piedmont to Old Mill distinguishes them from other Southern Leaguer cards.

That's all I have time for now, but I'll post some other ideas later.

Jamie

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Posted By: peter ullman

has anyone seen any type of relationship between availability of SL'ers vs presence in coupon type I set?

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Posted By: Scot

Jamie,



Thanks for the additional data. What strikes me is that the number of Old Mill Southerns remains relatively constant across Hindu yes-prints and Hindu no-prints, while the number of Piedmont 350s is much larger for the Hindu no-prints. This suggests that the Hindu no-prints experienced a longer print run with the Piedmont 350 back--but NOT with the Old Mill Southern back.

So it looks like we have the following distribution:

Subject Group . . . Brown Hindu . . . Old Mill S . . . . Piedmont 350

34 SAL/SA/VL . . . . Full print . . . . . Full print . . . . . Short print

8 SAL/SA/VL . . . . . No print . . . . . Full print . . . . . . Full print
+ 6 TL Subjects

A couple of notes:

1. The Southern Leaguer Paradox: The former 34 subjects were printed with a larger number of backs than the latter 14 subjects, but are less abundant. As Frank W. noted above, this is a paradoxical result. It is explained by the fact that the Piedmont 350 print run dwarfed the Hindu print run in sheer volume.

2. The 150/350 v. 350-Only Analogy: The former 34 subjects were released in 150 series, and therefore short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back--much like the 150/350 subjects were short-printed with 350 series backs. The latter 14 subjects were released in the 350 series, and therefore received a full print with the Piedmont 350 back--much like the 350-only subjects.

3. Piedmont 350 v. Old Mill Timing: The fact that all 48 subjects received a full print with the Old Mill Southern back but the former 34 subjects were short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back suggests that the Piedmont 350 print outlasted the Old Mill Southern print. For example, the Piedmont 350 print perhaps lasted until August 1910 whereas the Old Mill Southern print was terminated in May 1910, with the former 34 subjects being pulled from print in June 1910 but the latter 14 subjects continuing to be printed through August 1910. (These dates are just for the sake of argument).

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JAMIE and SCOT

For comparison's sake, when I broke up my 2nd T206 set in order to put together my all-PIEDMONT
set, these 12 Southern Leaguers (SL) were initially OLD MILL or HINDU's in my former set.

I had a heck of a time finding Piedmont's to replace these 12 cards listed below.

Guys, I know this is anectdotal; however, it is compararable with your data ?

I guess my point here is, that in the 3rd printing (Piedmont run) of the 48 - SL cards, they were not
all printed equally.

This is now obvious to us.

All this data shows that the Texas Leaguers are more available with the Piedmont brand (by a factor
of 2/1) over the Old Mill brand. And, now we know that at least Hart (Little Rock), King, Lentz, Orth,
Rockenfeld and Seitz appear to be more available with the Piedmont brand.

Southern Leaguers that were tougher for me to find with the Piedmont brand......

Breitenstein
Coles
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Manion
Paige
Revelle
Ryan



TED Z

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Posted By: Scot

Ted,

Sounds like your extensive set-building experience is consistent with the above data and theories.

Scot

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Posted By: Scot

Hi Brian,

The only math I see in my earlier post is 8 + 6 = 14.

I thought you could handle that one (smiley).

Best,

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

An original T206 collection (from So. Car.) that I acquired back in 2005 consisted of 404 cards.

Of which 378 were all PIEDMONT (150 & 350) cards; and, there were 26 diff. SL cards (all OLD MILL's).
There were no P460 cards, indicating that the original collector must of stopped collecting early in 1910.

I'll try to find my list of these SL cards. I do remember that Shaughnessy was one of the 26....his card
always stands out.


To be continued.


TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scot,
I was having a little fun with Dave last night and I guess you missed the humor... Be well Brian


PS My daughter and I can only count that high if we use pennies...

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Posted By: Scot

The humor was not lost; just having a little fun back . . . .

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scot,

I'm pretty sure the Old Mill Southern League run was discontinued to make way for the T210 set which was released sometime in the spring of 1910....

3. Piedmont 350 v. Old Mill Timing: The fact that all 48 subjects received a full print with the Old Mill Southern back but the former 34 subjects were short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back suggests that the Piedmont 350 print outlasted the Old Mill Southern print. For example, the Piedmont 350 print perhaps lasted until August 1910 whereas the Old Mill Southern print was terminated in May 1910, with the former 34 subjects being pulled from print in June 1910 but the latter 14 subjects continuing to be printed through August 1910. (These dates are just for the sake of argument).

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Scot

Brian,
That makes good sense.
Scot

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Posted By: J Hull

Looking again at the data I posted this morning, if you sort the list by the highest total sum (Piedmont + Old Mill) these are the "easiest" Southern Leaguers:

Orth = 75
Bastian = 73
Thebo = 72
Westlake = 70
Lentz = 68
Rockenfeld = 68
White = 65
Miller = 63
Smith (Shreveport) = 61
Hart (Little Rock) = 61
Hart (Montgomery) = 61
King = 60
Stark = 59
Seitz = 58
And then the 34 others.

And, yep, neat as can be, there are our 8 Hindu no-prints and 6 Texas Leaguers. I guess pop reports are good for something.

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Posted By: J Hull

So, to Brian and others,
I think we can see the effect of the T210 set elsewhere as well. I hadn't made the connection until reading this thread, but consider this as well:

The 350-only series contains 124 American and National League cards. Only about 40%-45% of those 124 have been confirmed with Old Mill backs. For reference, that's roughly the same percentage as have been confirmed with Drum backs. And Drum and Old Mill have the lowest number of confirmed cards available among all the brands.

Among the 86 American Association and Eastern League cards only about 35%-40% have been confirmed with Old Mill backs. Drum has the same percentage. Again, Drum and Old Mill have the lowest percentage of confirmed cards of any brands.

So it seems to me that not only were Southern Leaguers pulled to make way for T210s, but all T206s were pulled. Since the 350-460 series T206 cards have all or almost all been confirmed with Old Mill backs, it seems like the timeline of T206 production included a hiatus with regard to Old Mill lasting from sometime early in the 350-only series until sometime after the beginning of the 350-460 series.

Jamie

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Posted By: Scot

Jamie,

Wow! 14-for-14. Rarely are data that clean.

This thread has made an important contribution to the T206 knowledge base.

Scot

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jamie,
Nice work... But we aren't done yet... Ted, Scot, and a few others will help us complete the cycle...

I'm watching Tyler break the Tarheels scoring record tonight, but will be in touch tomorrow.

Be well Brian

PS too many people forget about the popularity and distribution of the brands...

PS 2 Barry... I'm typing really fast... so expect lots of errors...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I think our combined efforts in this thread have resulted in proving that your SL-HINDU subset
is complete with 34 cards.

Congratulations, guy......tis quite an achievement. Certainly greater than any of my short-set
sub-sets.

TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,

Thanks... But I don't see one being more impressive than the other...

We chose different sets and focused on acquiring the cards... We are both persistent, so we were bound to finish at some point.... But I don't think either one of us cares about such a small victory, we want to prove the big picture. And Buddy we aren't far away.



Talk to you soon. Brian



PS Tyler broke the record tonight and I have 30 people in the "man cave" down stairs so I have to go....

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Posted By: barry arnold

Wow!
Congratulations,fellows.

Leon, this one belongs in the Net 54 Archive Center.


best,

Barry

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This thread is somewhat reminiscent of your famous EPDG thread. The posts on this thread are not as
numerous as your EPDG; nevertheless, these posts are very illuminating regarding the HINDU mysteries
and their relation to the availability of certain T206 Southern Leaguers.

The "taming" of the Monster continues.



TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jamie, Scot or Ted,
Check the Polar Bear data on the 350 cards when you have a chance and see what it looks like.... I would, but I'm looking after six kids right now....Help.............. Be well Brian

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Posted By: J Hull

Ha Brian. Sounds like fun.
I'm sitting in a mostly empty office watching a blizzard, so here you go.
P.S. This data's a couple months out of date, so could be missing a few. And/or someone else may have more complete numbers...


All 350-only cards (AL + NL + AA + EL):
210 cards / 143 confirmed with Polar Bear backs (68%)

American and National Leaguers:
72 out of 124 confirmed to have Polar Bear backs (58%)

American Association:
36 out of 39 confirmed to have Polar Bear backs (92%)

Eastern League:
35 out of 47 confirmed to have Polar Bear backs (74%)

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm not sure how we got sidetracked to accounting for Polar Bear (PB) backs; however, I find it very
interesting that all 61 Subjects (incl. 6 super-prints) in the 350/460 Series and all 48 Subjects in the
460-only Series were printed with PB backs. Yet, in the 350-only Series there appears to be 67 No-
Prints (subject to revision).

Scot and I discussed this recently, and my observation is that in anticipation of the ATC divestiture
(circa early 1911) the Polar Bear brand was assigned to the Lorillard Co. Then there appears to have
been a significant increase in production of Polar Bear tobacco, as reflected by the fact that not only
all 109 of these cards are found with the PB backs; but, more so than other brands.

For example, both Cobb's in the 350/460 series and Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chi & Bos) are found
with a greater ratio of PB backs than with the other brands.

Perhaps someone can confirm this observation with pop. report data.

TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Thanks Jamie,
Stay warm and safe in the storm...


Hi Ted,
I wasn't trying to get off topic, but confirm some thoughts I've had on the distribution of certain brands with certain leagues.


Be well Brian

PS The kids are going to the Nutcracker all day, so I'm free to post away.
Now I need some Diet coke to wake up my brain.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey guy....I welcome more analysis of these cards....what do you think of my thoughts of POLAR BEAR's being printed
in much larger numbers for the 460 series cards ?

This includes the 460 versions of the 350/460 series group.


TED Z

P.S.....drink the real Coke (or Pepsi)....that diet stuff is deleterious to your system.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I think you are probably right, but I haven't really studied the data on Polar Bears in awhile. I'll take a look when the brain wakes up....

Talk to you soon. Be well Brian


PS I got off of Caffeine for two years and felt better than I ever have... Then I got married, went through four pregnancies and have two busy children, so I started back. I don't eat any sweats... no cakes, pies, ice cream, candy or sugar of any kind, so Diet Coke is the only way to go for me... I working on switching to Cranberry juice, but it hasn't worked yet.

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Posted By: barry arnold

Ted Z,
Many thanks for the EPDG memories!! The 'taming' of the Monster is well on its way, thanks to many, but particularly to those who have done the
great research on this thread!

Merry Christmas, ole friend

Barry

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Wishing you and Margarite a very MERRY CHRISTMAS....my dear friend.


TED Z

I hope I spelled your lovely wife's name correctly.