MRholdings on our BST ....Caveat Emptor!!

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Posted By: Shawn

Rob,



The two cards you are talking about are Leons and the actual one that is forsale. It is the card in question. Yes the size of the font is different, but the shape is the same.

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Posted By: robert a

Yes, there are two cards posted earlier in the thread in the same post.

Top: Card for sale

Bottom: Leon's card

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Posted By: Shawn

So that is the only known one. (so far). If you were to make a fake, you could not unless you owned or had seen the one posted above. It is the only one that we know of. The letter type matches the ad, do you think someone used it as an example?

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Posted By: boxingcardman

It is an underprint...

Oh, no. we don't go there again...

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Shawn

Please no!

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Posted By: whitehse

Ok I have to ask what might be a real dumb question and maybe I should start a new thread but here goes.

These overprints are what? Are they not nothing more than someone taking a rubber stamp to them at some time and stamping the backs of these cards? What makes the cards more valuable with the overprints on them? (or should I say collectable) It seems to be contrary to everything I have ever seen in this hobby in that anything "added" to the card will de-value the card. What am I missing here?

I apologize for the dumb questions but I have been reading about overprints for a long time on this board and nobody ever explained what they actually were and why they are collectable. if I am left to my own assumptions I usually get myself into alot of trouble!

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Thanks for your input David C.. always like to see what you have to say.. congrats on good luck with the new company!

Stamps are very cool but very risky.. I have only purchased one for the sole purpose of selling it to another that collected them..

marty

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Posted By: Anonymous

ok i just checked out leon's e94 types. each banner pretty much have different fonts, the only thing that leon's "oh you fan" have in common with the others might be the ink used. but since it's a 1/1, who's to say leon isn't the fake while this new discovery is real? this is all hypothetical of course...if you put leon's 10 along with the new "oh you fan", that might not even be the first one that jumps out at you as being fake.



i guess in the end i still can't really decide if it's real or fake, and that's why i've shied away from these. i hope leon doesn't mind me putting his 10 scan here for comparison purposes(just delete it if it's inappropriate leon).



and robert...if someone has a little hobby knowledge, contact the right people (dr cycleback/joe d. about ink and printing) a stamp can be duplicated within a year that you can't really tell the difference. i truly believe that.



to add: and these are fairly complicated stamps to me, think of all the easier stamps that can be made, niagaras d355s, e107 breisch co. stamps.

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Posted By: robert a

Quan,

Doesn't JC have almost all of the same E94 overprints and they look identical to the examples that Leon has?

So if I talk to David R. (Cycleback) I'll know how to duplicate an E94 overprint?

I hear what you're saying, but look how pathetic that Old Put is. I think it's harder than we think to create the exact look of the Old Put stamps that are legit.


Look, I just saw that Old Put and the E94 together and they just screamed fake, but let me say it again. I could be wrong.

As someone has already mentioned, even a tiny bit of provenance here would go a long way.

Not, "uh, I have these cards for sale."


Rob

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Posted By: quan

old put is sloppy...i'm impressed with the e94 quality. getting the ink down is the hardest part, i feel the font is easier to duplicate. if the seller put the e94 by itself for $1500 in the sgc holder most wouldn't even bat an eye.

rob how about you paying me 40k next year after tax plus expenses, i'll reduce my workload and go about creating that stamp. You have all those blank e94s ready to go ...

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Posted By: Wesley

In an earlier post, didn't Jim Manos say he owned the E94 and sent it to SGC for encapsulation? Maybe Jim can tell us where the card came from.

If these overprints are not legit, then someone was just lazy and did not spend the effort to use the correct size fonts. I imagine it would not be difficult to make overprints that better replicate the ones that were supposedly stamped closer to the time of production.

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Posted By: leon

No worries about using the overprints. I hope you don't mind that I stuck the new one below the ones you listed. I guess I am biased but that one does stick out to me like the one that is out of place. Some of it could be the scan too though as it's not a good one...anywho, I do have good provenance on the one Oh You Fan I have but not real far back....It wasn't bought for a ton of money and I just don't think the reward was there for a fake...and it "feels" similar to the others....maybe I am wrong, who knows?

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Posted By: robert a

Leon,

Have you seen another Oh You Fan?

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Posted By: leon

The short answer is "no" I have not seen another Oh You Fan card.

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Posted By: Shawn

Let me guess, no one has seen this back either so its a fake?

not a baseball card by the way.

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Posted By: robert a

Shawn,

Why do you keep saying we haven't seen the back when we have?


Let me give you another example. There's plenty of Blome's E94 Overprints. They are all exactly the same. Not a little smaller. Not almost the same font, but a bit distorted.


Your argument is: It could be real.


Rob

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Posted By: Dave F

Shawn-

While the font you found from the book is the same as the one from the seller here, I still don't know what that proves. I get your point of "why would someone try and copy this lettering from this one obscure piece found online". But isn't that font one of the most common used? Even back then? Had the seller's overprint been in an old english font or something a little less likely to be found it would seem a bit more convincing.


I think for SGC to authenticate it they will need more.

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Posted By: Tim Kindler

Just got in tonight and read the day's events regarding this thread.



First and foremost, Jim I hope things are improving for you and your family with your daughter's health as Leon had stated they were earlier today.



I'm going to stay out of the E94 debate because I know nothing about them.



As for the E98, it is pretty much a no brainer that it is a fake overprint. I looked and noticed something else that was strange. All 3 of mine, the Cy Young, and the Cobb all have the stamps running down the back in the correct reading order, in other words the O in OLD PUT is at the top. This fake has the O at the bottom and reads up the card.



In all the other posts that I have made regarding these cards, I have made it clear that I am not prejudging the charachter of the seller yet until more info is found out, but I do have a question that I haven't seen asked yet. Why hasn't this person come on to defend himself with his side of the story?



Leon, I believe you stated in an earlier post that you have made contact with him. Has he not posted to defend himself becasue it is something you two decided would be best to not do at this time. If it is none of my business, it is alright if you tell me so!

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Posted By: Matt

Tim - If I'm understanding the story correctly, MRHoldings bought the cards from Manos who says he got them at a show and then slabbed them. I'm not sure what MRHoldings would defend since this is how he bought them.

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Posted By: Tim Kindler

Matt,
Thanks for giving me more background. I guess even though I read through the posts, I didn't quite make those connections on the background of the cards.

Now when you said they were slabbed, you meant the E94s, but what is the story behind the E98? I'm sorry if I'm still missing something on the E98 because it is not slabbed.

Thanks Matt
Tim Kindler

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Posted By: Matt

Tim - I'm also not completely clear on the history - I've just pieced together bits from the thread, but my reading comprehension is lacking as well. I'm not clear which cards exactly followed that path, and also don't know about the other 7 cards being mentioned and where they came from.

It would indeed be helpful if the seller would come on and clarify some of these missing pieces.

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Posted By: Shawn

Rob,

I am sorry, when I say back I was meaning the stamp. Again, I am only talking about the Close card. But yes, my argument is that it could be real. Dave, your font theory that the style was and is so popular that coincidently the two matched is I think far fetched.

As Leon often says, Anything is possible though.

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Posted By: Dave F

Shawn-

Listen to my head. It's not exactly far fetched to go on the theme of the font style is fairly common. Also, unless the scan of the back of the seller's card is slightly distorted it appears the "George Close Co" and "Cambridge, Mass" font is wider than your example. I could be wrong.

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Posted By: leon

I hope I am about done with this debate. I guess there has to be a tiny bit of a leap of faith on the overprints....much like any pre-war card in MINT condition ..... That being said the original poster, MR, is out of the picture. He is returning the cards in question to Jim...and Jim is sending the slabbed E94 back to SGC for a review. I have a feeling they won't like it but we shall see.

ANOTHER big problem with the new E94 OH YOU FAN is the way it is positioned on the back of the card. Every other E94 overprint I can remember seeing has the stamp, whichever one it is, positioned the same way...starting at the list of players. The new crummy looking one is positioned way too high. Again, I think it's just sloppy new work...but that is just my opinion from the scan.... As long as you do your homework I think overprints and collecting can be fun. For all of those saying how easy it is to fake these....yeah, see all of them out here and all of those "dime a dozen" overprint stamps? I can't hardly turn around without seeing a fake stamp, they are so plentiful!! sheesh....

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Posted By: Matt

Leon - can you clarify if all the overprinted items he had on the BST came from Jim or just the E94?

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Posted By: leon

My understanding is they all came from Jim. I spoke to Mark Macrae yesterday about the R310 and he confirmed that particular one is contemporary..as he has had others that way too. The E98 and E94 didn't come from Mark....I think Jim said he got those at a show....regards

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Posted By: Matt

Thanks Leon - it was confusing to put the pieces together.

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Posted By: Shawn

Leon,

Notice on the Old Cardboard link below, that there are two overprints positioned the same way as the "Oh You Fan" stamp that is in question.

The: "Your Out" and "Oppie"

http://www.oldcardboard.com/e/e1/e094/e94.asp?cardsetID=735

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Posted By: leon

Unfortunately you are wrong.....those overprints on OldCardboard are mine....please keep playing....regards

edited to add...I just looked again and don't think each one is mine though I think some are...regardless, the positioning hasn't changed and the suspect E94 is still not like any of the rest, positioning-wise...

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Posted By: Shawn

Leon,

The two I mentioned do not start at the "list of players"... They are opposite like the one in question.

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Posted By: leon

Show me one overprint that goes into the blank space like the bad looking one.

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Posted By: Shawn

Leon,



You are changing your statement now. You did not mention anything about the "blank space", but I do agree with you on that. I have not seen any stamps shifted over that much, though all of them are NOT in the exact same spot.



Perhaps I did not fully understand what you meant by "whichever one it is, positioned the same way...starting at the list of players", I thought you were talking about which end the stamp was placed on. Reading from left to right, most of the stamps are started at the top of the card. The two I mentioned plus the one in question are started at the bottom of the card. I may have this reversed, because I do not have the cards in hand. But I think you know what I mean.



Sorry if there was confusion on my part.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

The E94's are a factory printed overprint that was sheet fed.

The E98's are handstamped.

Agree with Tim Kindler, all the E98's Old Put's run the same direction, I have not seen one the opposite way.

Scott

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Posted By: leon

Actually it was me that changed a little bit on that issue. The bottom line is that when you look at ALL OF THE KNOW exemplars they are all fairly well centered. The bad looking one isn't. The bad looking one came with a fake Old Put, the bad looking one has black ink, the bad looking one came from Ohio....the bad looking one just looks fake.....I have handled enough of all types of pre war cards to know that when something doesn't look and feel right it usually isn't. I have sent numerous cards to SGC, with the expectation they weren't good, and they weren't. For the record I have also seen a few variations of some of the printing on some good E94 overprint expamples...but never have I seen such a poor looking one as the one we are talking about....

The one exception to these E94 Overprints are the Blomes. I do think those are a little different than the others. .....hope this helps.....

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Posted By: Bob

So we all agree the E98 Old Put is a fake. Good. The E94 is troubling. The reason I said the card was authentic but not the overprint was based on the fact I have owned/own several E94 overprints and they are all blue or red. I have never seen one with that color before. The font is a red flag but that aside, the color of the overprint is what bothers me.
Like a previous poster, I sold all my Old Puts because the thought of someone making a stamp and forging the overprint was too scary. (Well all except the Clarke which UPS lost for me and which scan has been used for years in the SCD book. Haven't checked this year to see if it is still there.)

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Posted By: Shawn

Leon,

You have very legitimate points, and perhaps you are right and it is a fake.
But:
1. Your "Oh You Fan" is the only one known
2. As you can see, the Close Co. used several different versions, formats, Fonts and colors with there overprint logos
3. Coincidently, there is an ad that matches the exact same lettering style on the card in question "The George Close Co" portion, but is not seen on any of the other cards. Someone just pulled it out of a hat?
4. I think what we are dealing with here is someone who bought a "lot" of overprint and stamp cards, not really knowing what they were doing... In doing this perhaps he bought some fakes and real ones. But who knows?

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Posted By: Richard

"The E94's are a factory printed overprint that was sheet fed."

Scott - this is interesting. How do you know this?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I've never closely followed these stamped cards, but there are standard methods for identifying prints made from the same printing plate-- stamp in this case. It involves close examination of the printing under very high magnification. Printing plates have minute finger prints that are lost if the plate is reproduced or copied. This means if you have an overprinted card that you know is genuine (ala, it's been around a long time), you can identify overprints made from the same stamp. If the original stamp is no longer around (assumption)-- fakes are made with a new stamp--, you can definitively identify original stamps.

Of course, many copied stamps will be dubious and different to the naked eye anyway.

In short, if you can identify stamps that are known to be genuine and old, you can create a family tree from there. I don't believe they will be lost in a sea of fakes.

Also, you can test how long ink has been on paper, which is a standard and common forensic test. It is known the rates at which various inks dry, and by testing how dry is the ink, you can guestimate how long the ink has been on the paper. It's a relatively simple, straight foreword test and the difference between 90 years ago and 1 year ago would be pretty obvious. In disputed will court cases, they might want to identify the exact year brand and make of the pen used (and the FBI can do this!)-- but with a questioned stamp on a baseball card, you simply have to determine that it's been there for a good long while to be confident in the authenticity.

As already noted more than once in this thread, if there is a wave of very recent fakes, provenance establishing a card has been around since before the wave is helpful and practical evidence. Sales documentation establishing that the card was around 10 years ago doesn't prove the stamp 100 years old, but will make the owner and buyer more comfortable-- especially if faking Old Put stamps is a thing that started just this year.

Baseball card collectors often wonder aloud why anyone would pay extra for a card because it came a famous old timer collection. This thread has shown how provenance can be significant with baseball cards. Who wouldn't love right now to have documentation that their Old Put belonged to Burdick, or was purchased from the Larry Frisch catalog in 1975?

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Posted By: leon

I said I was done but what the heck....it's still fun debating.

Rman- I asked Scott the same thing a few minutes ago. His answer was that since all of the known E94 Overprints, until now, are very well centered, then they most likely were not done at random with a free hand. I think that's a good point but not sure...


Shawn- You said and my responses,.....


You have very legitimate points, and perhaps you are right and it is a fake.
But:
1. Your "Oh You Fan" is the only one known

Yes, it's the only one known. It came from Tom B at a National...I think he paid about 250 each for 2 of them (different stamps) a few minutes earlier and Scott and I both bought one........but at that kind of money it's hardly a model for scamming profitability.


2. As you can see, the Close Co. used several different versions, formats, Fonts and colors with there overprint logos

True- and if you look closely this new example has the company in big letters while all of the others are small letters

3. Coincidently, there is an ad that matches the exact same lettering style on the card in question "The George Close Co" portion, but is not seen on any of the other cards. Someone just pulled it out of a hat?

Close Company had lots of advertising and lots of different fonts. Anyone can go to my site and see several different Close Company ad pieces/boxes/tins/letters........You ever do an internet search? I wouldn't call it pulling out of a hat...but that's just me.

4. I think what we are dealing with here is someone who bought a "lot" of overprint and stamp cards, not really knowing what they were doing... In doing this perhaps he bought some fakes and real ones. But who knows?

I think we are dealing with a scammer and someone trying to pull some fraud on us. Many times they think they will get over.....This board has uncovered bigger scammers than this. When you see an item that is questionable on ebay one of the first things we do is see what other things the seller is selling or buying. Today I saw a cool Babe Ruth card with a cool stamp on back. I was a bit excited. I clicked on the other things the seller was selling....right next to it was a fake M101/5 Ruth......I wasn't as excited anymore....It's experience ....Old Put bad....never before seen E94 Overprint right next to it.....same as the Ruth on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/BB-Card-Babe-Ruth-Yankees-Spanky-s-Hot-Dog_W0QQitemZ310106566572

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Posted By: Dave F

Well did I read it right that the seller has now returned what he bought from Manos and has himself went away? If thats the case then it doesn't even seem the seller had much confidence in this being legit.

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Posted By: quan

that's an interesting theory by scott...but looking at the available scans some stamp goes left to right while a few right to left (i'm comparing leon's blome's/your out/oppie dildock to the ocb's scans). so it's possible one sheet may go one way and another sheet goes the other, but that would mean more examples than what we've discovered so far.

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Posted By: Shawn

Leon,

Thank you for your input. I am well aware of many different scammers and different types of fake cards. And believe me, there is not much out there that makes me madder than someone trying to scam me or anyone else. I have no interest in the "Oh You Fan" card, nor will I ever. I do not own or will ever own a stamped or overprint card on purpose. I have to say though, the overprint just seems right to me? Hopefully I am wrong in my opinion, and I just end up looking like a idiot:) I am not the brightest guy on the block, but if I am going to make a fake I am going to make one that looks like the others. Also, because you own a fake does not make all of your other cards fake too. Leon, as many cards you have owned I would venture to say a few have come across your hands. This hobby is just to popular, that crooks are just bound to jump in! It sucks, thats why knowledge is king!

Dave,
I would probably get rid of the cards myself after reading this thread... I would probably burn um!

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Posted By: Richard

"Rman- I asked Scott the same thing a few minutes ago. His answer was that since all of the known E94 Overprints, until now, are very well centered, then they most likely were not done at random with a free hand. I think that's a good point but not sure... "

hmmmmm....

This seems a bit of a stretch to me. Switching plates, inks, etc at the press for different ads? I'm thinking someone with a steady hand at the company.

I try to put all my stamps straight on my Christmas cards. No one accused me of being an automatic stamping machine

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Posted By: leon

Overprints aren't for everyone. I happen to collect backs and believe overprints (I don't collect underprints) are really neat and colorful. Much more than common set collecting...but that's what makes this hobby fun. Do what makes you happy. So far I have one email from a board member wanting to sell an Old Put at fair market. I am only in the market for cards that folks think are not good (and I think are) and at prices that reflect that OR for one(s) I don't own. Fair market on all but the Blomes is about $2500 and on the Blomes maybe $800-$1400...depending on grade etc......

As far as your comment about if you were a scammer you would make a stamp that looked more like another one....well, for ALL OF THOSE collectors that think they are so easy.....show me one. I offer that if it was that easy we would be having this discussion more often and there would be more cards we have this debate over. It seems like the folks who shout the loudest never really have anything to show....Show me the fake stamps and overprints??....anyone, Bueller?....crickets .....chirp chirp....


Also Shawn....you are absolutely correct. I have probably had a a dozen or so counterfeits that I bought unknowingly. I have had about 2-3 that I couldn't return for a refund with a total value of under $400....So I don't think that's too bad. I admit to having learned the hard way a few times....I could be wrong on this E94 but I am not throwing in the towel yet....Lets see what SGC says when they re-evaluate it....Hopefully, Jim or SGC will let us know...

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Posted By: robert a

Scott and Tim,


Leon has an Old Put in his personal collection that runs the opposite way.
I've seen another one that is flipped around too.

Rob

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Posted By: Mark T

That is my question also. From MR Holdings email to me, he stated i was first in line to get the E94 Moore. Well, if the card comes back and SGC says its legit then sell me the card for $1,000. He was ready and willing 2 days ago.

I have emailed MR Holdings and requested other scans of the 7 cards with other overprints but as i suspected, no reply's.

Anyway, i suspect like most others that SGC will not be returning the card.

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Posted By: robert a

Again I don't know if this is a question only JC can answer, but wasn't there like 8 or so of the same overprints on his website including an Oh You Fan?

Were those the same examples as Leon's?



Rob

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Posted By: Mark T

Leon...looks like you can make any custom stamp at this link, just make a microsoft word doc. and send upload. I never tried it and don't know how good it will look.


http://orders.rubberstamps.net/FixedSize.aspx?ProductID=IS-16&qty=1

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Posted By: leon

Mark- I suspect the other 7 will look the same and is the reason we haven't seen them. Also, as for the stamp making. No doubt there are millions of places to get stamps made. I just think they will come out looking like the one in question.....It's the first, and probably not the last, I have seen that I have serious doubts about...and where is the provenance? As Todd pointed out provenance isn't an end all but it sure helps me to know that 8 of my 10 are in Lipset's encyclopedia from 25 yrs ago....Since MR is returning them to Jim I think it will be up to Jim to sell them as he will be the owner....but that is for those guys to say specifically. If it is a good stamp then that is fine with me. As I already have an OH YOU FAN I won't really need it to feel complete ....


Rob- I think JC had/has about 6 different and I am sure he didn't have an OH YOU FAN.......He and I used to talk about them all of the time....

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Posted By: Dave F

Mark-

Should probably just consider yourself lucky at this point.