Sen. Russell's collection incl. Doyle error & Ty Cobb back

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JON C

Nice observation......

However, some one has to talk to SGC....this is the worst mis-labeling of a BB card that I have seen.
Much less, identifying this card as a "T206 Ty Cobb"

We are letting these Grading Co. contradict years of research in the cataloging of BB cards with their erroneous
labels.
And what is worst, is that once incorrectly done (such as this one), it is then considered the established ID from
then on ! !

At least SGC could have simply labeled it.....

TY COBB TOBACCO
Ty Cobb (red portrait)


This really bothers me, as I have seen this with incorrect dating of certain E-card sets by Graded Co. labels......
and, one of the most egregious Grading Co. labels identifies the 1949 LEAF BB as "1948-49 Leaf".

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: paulstratton

Nice catch Jon. It would be nice to know where Nagy acquired his Cobb/Cobb. I find it odd that with all the books/articles/interviews that have been done on and about Cobb that there was never a mention of these backs.

Maybe they were a give away at Piedmont Park(produced as a one time deal for Piedmont) as that is where Cobb got his first taste of big league ball and met his boyhood hero Bill Bradley of the Indians.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

Nice cards. The absence of Shaughnessey is interesting. I know a lot of folks think he is one of the more difficult southern leaguers. Perhaps he was shortprinted with Piedmont 350.

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

great thread, Ted et al.
those Russell cards are beauts.
I agree with Prof.Blumenthal that your 2nd scenario of Russell keeping the first Doyle and relegating all subsequent examples to a duplicate pile makes the most sense.
I still remember my boyhood collecting days from the early 60's when I did just that.
Duplicates only mattered as barter material---and bike spoke noise.

all the best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Shaughnessey is a very elusive T206 with any of its possible three T-brands that it was printed with.

However, you have a good point there; as, Shaughnessey was one of the last cards I needed to complete my all-PIEDMONT set.
I saw several OLD MILL's and even a few HINDU's, before I finally found a PIEDMONT 350 Shaughnessey.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Combining my observations (and acquisitions), and further research of the T-cards in Russell's collection....
it appears to me that he stopped collecting cards in the Fall of 1911. In fact the bulk of his collection was
acquired between 1910 and 1911. And, it was at the "expense" of his smoking at a very young age (13-14
years old).

So, my friend.....assuming that he acquired his TY COBB/Ty Cobb card during this period (and there appears
to be a high likelihood that he did)....then this collection is the 1st to establish a timeline on this unique and
mysterious card.
I am continuing with further research on this collection; and, hope to be able to provide more insight into it,
in the near future.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

Ted,
Thanks for the very interesting information. Dating is of course a huge piece of the puzzle. It looks like we are getting closer. I appreciate all the hard work you have put into this.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

There is more to come....I think we are starting to piece this puzzle together.

The Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tobacco Tin, I feel has "derailed" us, in that this Tobacco product comes from Durham, NC.
But, the source of all the TY COBB/Ty Cobb cards is Cobb County, Georgia. Something doesn't jive in this picture.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

You know, I was never convinced that the tin was connected to the card. Looking forward to your next report.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

The "Cut Plug Tobacco" on the tin just does not seem to go with the "King of the Smoking Tobacco World" slogan on the card.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Red

There's nothing unusual looking about the rare Doyle with Nat'l variation when it was among other T206 cards he had. His Doyle looked like his other T206 cards. If he later noticed a Doyle missing the Nat'l then he probably would have that thought that card was something special, not the normal looking card he had.

As far as proper labeling goes, why would you need to specify Red Portrait on a Ty Cobb Brand Tobacco card?

[Archive]

Posted By: martindl

Ted,
You've made reference to Cobb County a couple of times in your posts but I don't understand the connection to Ty or the Ty Cobb brand?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Russell, as a teenager collecting T206's, would not have known the difference. And, my contention is that he almost certainly
opened a Piedmont pack in the Spring of 1910 and found the Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l card first. Because the American Lithographic
Co. (ALC) printed Doyle's error card first. He was very lucky to get the Piedmont 350 cards when they were first available. The
ALC caught their mistake very quickly and removed the "Nat'l" lettering from the subsequent Joe Doyle cards.

It will be interesting to find out if Russell's collection has both Joe Doyle cards ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Atlanta is in Fulton County. Adjacent to Fulton County is Cobb County that was named after Judge Thomas Willis Cobb in 1832.
This county's name and Ty Cobb are just a coincidence. No connection, other then I think some of these cards were found in
that area.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Gee, it's really tempting to drop down to visit you and get you to go to Athens, Georgia with me
to see this collection.

Interested ?

TED Z

[tedzan]

Updating this 4-year old thread of mine.


1st.....the 2nd paragraph in post #1 is corrected to read......

I recently acquired 40 cards from Sen. Russell's original collection. A relative of his had consigned approx. 200 duplicate cards from Russell's
boyhood collection to a dealer in Atlanta (who consigned them to ebay).

In one shot from this collection, I acquired 7 of the tough "ELITE 11" (as I've coined them) with their very scarce PIEDMONT 350 backs.
These 7 cards are......

Dahlen (Boston)
Ewing
Ganley
Jones (St Louis)
Karger
Lindaman
Mullin (horiz.)

I contacted the dealer in Atlanta. He told me that this lady was a distant relative of Russell's, and these tobacco cards were in a box inside a
desk which she had acquired from Russell's estate.


2nd.....the link to Russell's colllection in Post #1 has been modified. The old link doesn't work anymore. Here is the new link......

http://baseballcards.galib.uga.edu/about/


3rd.....Factory #33 identified on the back of the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card is the F. R. Penn tobacco plant in Reidsville, NC.


4th.....The biography of Senator Richard Russell says he started smoking cigarettes at the early ages of 13 and 14. This coincides with the T206 timeline (1910)
when the PIEDMONT 350 cards were issued in packs. The T205 cards were issued in 1911. I think it is fair to assume that he collected these cards directly from
their packs. Therefore, the Joe Doyle error card in his collection was acquired in real time during his youth (from a PIEDMONT cigarette pack).


5th....The Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card in his collection was most likely acquired in real time during the Spring/Summer of 1910. Russell often took trips with his Dad
(a well known Judge) to the Atlanta where opportunity to get this card was possible. Russell was an avid Baseball fan who followed Major League results in his
local newspapers. And often played the game in his youth.

After Russell went off to Gordon Military Institue (circa 1911), his BB collection appears to have been "archived" until 1983, when it was donated (with tons of
Russell's stuff) to the University of Georgia (Athens, GA). Where it is on display (by appointment).


6th.....Some thoughts regarding the Ty Cobb tin....the artwork on this tin is patterned after the T206's 150 Series image of Cobb (bat on shoulder card).





Circa Feb 1910, newspapers reported of the new Ty Cobb Granulated Cut Plug Tobacco; and, that's consistent with the timeline of the T206 Cobb (bat on shoulder)
card. But, the image on the Ty Cobb card with the Ty Cobb back is that of the T206 red portrait Cobb (which was printed in the Spring/Summer of 1910). I'd venture
to say that the Ty Cobb back card stands alone as an advertising (or promotional) premium that was handed out.....rather than having been inserted in the Ty Cobb
Tobacco tin.



TED Z

[atx840]

Nice update Ted. Although several Cobb/Cobb cards show signs of tobacco staining.

I find it difficult to believe that a 13-15 year old kid by chance collected the two rarest T206s, are there no indications that he continued to collect in his later years?

[tedzan]

He was sort of problem to his parents (scholastically) as a teenager. So, his parents sent him off to a strict Military school in 1911. My understanding
is that his BB card collecting days ceased there. Simply because his smoking habit was suspended while there.

Regarding the tobacco staining that has been reported on some of the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb cards....I don't think we know for certain that it was due to
cards being inserted in the Ty Cobb Tobacco tin.

The Ty Cobb Tobacco was for chewing, pipe smoking, etc. All of which could have been the cause of the staining by the card's owners.


TED Z

Is it possible the cards were handed out to the purchaser and they put them in the tin for safe keeping during transport??

[Jaybird]

Interesting thread.

I guess I'd like to know the detail about how you concluded that the collection was archived until 1983. How do we know he didn't revisit these cards during his lifetime?

I realize that they all (except the Cobb) had Pied350 backs but another explanation might have been that he only liked to collect Piedmont 350.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Interesting thread.

I guess I'd like to know the detail about how you concluded that the collection was archived until 1983. How do we know he didn't revisit these cards during his lifetime?

I realize that they all (except the Cobb) had Pied350 backs but another explanation might have been that he only liked to collect Piedmont 350.

Jason

It wasn't a matter that...."he only liked to collect Piedmont 350" cards. The timeline (1910-11) of when he started smoking as a teenager the available brand in his area
of Georgia was Piedmont cigarettes. He pulled 1000's of cards from the Piedmont and Old Mill (red border) packs that he purchased.

His distant relative was selling off his 100's of duplicates back in 2008 and I bought about 40 of them.

The collection of his on display at the U of GA consists of 497 different T206's.....another 500+ cards including T205's and T210's.

Perhaps my choice of the word "archived" is misleading. Russell was sent away to a strict Military school in 1911. From 1911 to 1919 he went to Law School and was in
the Navy (and was into girls). During this period his smoking habit had ceased. My impression of this period in his life was too regimented for him to have spent any time
collecting BB cards. After all, there were no BB card shows .

His collection from the 1910-11 era was back in his folks home in Winder, GA collecting dust.

TED Z

[insidethewrapper]

In the spring of 1910, Cobb was in Georgia not at spring training( he hated spring training ). But he was also home because he had an automobile dealership which he was deeply involved with. Could these cards (Cobb/Cobb) have been given to customers at his dealership, or to those rich enough to buy autos in 1910. Did Sen. Russell's dad buy a car from Cobb that year ? If this card was a premium just maybe it was given out at his dealership.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Is it possible the cards were handed out to the purchaser and they put them in the tin for safe keeping during transport??

Andrew

Anything is possible, guy.

Whatever....I don't think that these Ty Cobb cards were originally packaged in the Ty Cobb tin by F. R. Penn tobacco.
Newspaper advertisements indicate that this tin was available Feb 1910. The Red portrait Cobb image on T-cards was
issued later (circa Spring/Summer 1910).

See you in Baltimore good buddy.


Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

In the spring of 1910, Cobb was in Georgia not at spring training( he hated spring training ). But he was also home because he had an automobile dealership which he was deeply involved with. Could these cards (Cobb/Cobb) have been given to customers at his dealership, or to those rich enough to buy autos in 1910. Did Sen. Russell's dad buy a car from Cobb that year ? If this card was a premium just maybe it was given out at his dealership.

A possible scenario......this timeline appears to coincide with when I think the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card was available. I will check-out the
biography of Senator Russell that I have to see if there is any reference to him and his dad visiting with Cobb during the Spring of 1910.

TED Z