Dinner With Kevin Saucier

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

No--I was sad for Eric that they did not like him--I think Eric is a nice guy:)

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

I feel like we're approaching a happy place here with all the mutual admiriation. Much preferable than the personal bashing. I think I won't take my meds today.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Like many that sell graded cards, I generally don't take returns on them unless I have missed something substantial in the description. This is because I don't want to start haggling with someone over a third party description.

If I sell a raw card and say it is EX, and the buyer disagrees, then I think it's okay to continue to negotiate a return based on a disagreement between us about the card's condition.

But I don't want to start with a buyer disagreeing with the opinion of a third party that is not part of the transaction, that has independently given an opinion of grade (or lack of alteration) as a professional activity for a fee, and upon which both the buyer and I are entitled to rely.

So if a buyer takes an SGC graded card, breaks it out to send to PSA and it comes back trimmed, I would have a hard time bearing responsibility for that. (Honestly, I would have a hard time not bearing responsibility too, because I would feel terrible about it.) But at the most objective level you have to, at some point, say that the third party opinion was reasonably relied upon, and if there is a dispute it is with the third party grader.

Therefore, if I sold a graded card to someone who then took it to Kevin who said it was altered I would probably take the same stance and say it is between the buyer and the grading company (unless there was something so obvious it would be crazy for me to not have seen it - then it's a maybe).

The bottom line is that once a card is graded, I don't think it really matters who the next set of eyes on it belongs to. The next opinion up the road - be it the buyer, another grading company, or Kevin - is nothing more than the next opinion up the road, and I can't see that there is any hierarchy that says subsequent opinions automatically have more credibility than the graded opinion.

If I sold a card raw and the buyer took it to Kevin (or any other credible party) who said it was altered, that would be different and I would take it back.

I can also see that if someone like Jim spending big money wants to make that second opinion a condition of sale, he has that right and it might be wise.

But as a general after-sale activity, I am having trouble seeing how there will be any more acceptance of Kevin as a second-guesser than any other party or company. Typical (although not universal) practice is to disallow return of graded cards based on subsequent opinions, and I don't see how it will be different here.

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Joann,

Good points. There are quite a few dealers I buy from that carry vintage graded cards in their inventory. All of them have indicated to me that they have absolutely no problem making a sale contingent upon 3rd party inspection--be it Kevin or anyone else. SGC or PSA could have missed something. With the stories about restoration, I think its prudent when spending a lot of money to get a second opinion.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

Should there not also be a policy about sellers refudning the price of a raw card which comes back from two grading companies as altered?

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Joann- thank you for rather eloquently expressing how I feel about the matter.

Getting a second opinion on a graded card is a pretty complicated issue. Most of my inventory is consigned to me. If someone gives me a graded card to sell, and after the transaction I tell him he is getting the card back because another party looked at it and said it was no good, all hell will break loose.

Try telling the consignor that the PSA or SGC card that he spent a few thousand dollars for is altered, and that someone who is not affiliated with any grading company rendered that opinion. I will have to take the wrath of the consignor and the buyer at the same time, and I just can't go there.

I sell all my graded cards in good faith. If something is wrong with any of them, go tell it to the graders; I putting in my earplugs and tuning out the rest.

[Archive]

Posted By: D. C. Markel

As mentioned there are some outstanding people who accepted the invitation to join LTS like Jay Wolt, Ray Beohm, Wayne Ellis, Frank Bakka, Joe Turrillo, Dave Jacobs and many more. However, in my three day tenure, I recall vividly the most active thread on that board was a direct attack towards a friend of mine. People are certainly entitled to called someone a jerk, but when they start fabricating blatant lies about that person and that person doesn't even have clue he's being crucified, it was all I could stomach and quit in disgust. There was also a second thread as I recall that was crucifying a dealer, which again I knew what was being said was not true. If the people that contributed to those particular threads are less than 1% of its entire membership, then good for LTS.

To me, if the LTS is "the most knowledgeable group of collectors in the hobby" as has been touted by its members, why do they have to go into hiding? It does nothing towards promoting baseball card collecting to the public at large.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Getting a second opinion on a graded card is a pretty complicated issue."


I understand for an auction house it might become complicated. I tend to think it would be between the buyer and the grading company after the sale has been completed.

I can also understand where the high-roller's might want to make an arrangement before hand. Kind of like sending a car to your own mechanic before buying it...except cards can cost more.

For curiosity sake, I wonder if an auction house and/or buyer would have an increased comfort level if a card was verified prior to the beginning of an auction or if it would sell for a little more?

Barry, I would be happy to give it a try at no cost if you were ever interested. Shoot me an email if you want and we can talk about it.



Kevin

[Archive]

Posted By: Wayne Ellis

I hope it's okay if I join in here as this is my first post. I joined LTS in the very beginning and what was and still is appealing about LTS is that it has been a safe place to discuss sportscards without the constant bashing by anonymous trolls such as what happens on CU. I've always collected post war cards (for the past 4 years 1955 Bowman football) and I don't know anything at all about the pre war cards that I understand are mostly talked about here. I may be wrong on this but that is just what I've heard.

I just want to clear up a couple of things. There are a lot of great people of LTS and most of what is discussed is very good. It's not perfect but it's much better than CU. I don't consider it to be an elitist group. It's just a place to talk cards. Like any other forum there are times when it becomes far from perfect and deviates from the discussion on cards - but I forgive Varha for this.

Dan - It's been a long time and I hope you and your family are doing well! I remember that initial discussion and I didn't agree with what was being said either but I do want you to know that isn't the norm. It's been a great board. I do appreciate all of the help you've been to me over the years.

Anthony - I can't tell you how much I miss you on LTS! I'm not involved in the politics and I honestly don't have any idea why you left other than something happened but anyways I hope that everyting is going well for you. (I did finally buy a digital camera as per your recommendation.)

Dav - your collection just continues to impress. I've been building the 55 bowman football set for 4 years now and I'm down to 6 cards that I need in PSA 8 or better to finish. Now that you're pretty much done maybe I can find those cards! (lol) Like the others, I do miss you being on LTS.


Whether you choose to post here, CU, or LTS I just think it's much more important to enjoy our hobby, enjoy collecting our cards, and enjoy exchanging knowledge.

Take care all!


Wayne Ellis

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

"It does nothing towards promoting baseball card collecting to the public at large."

And this thread does?

[Archive]

Posted By: D. C. Markel

Great hearing from you. I trust all is well with you and your loved ones.

What the Post WWII collecting community at large really needs to do is be active on the Net 54 Postwar Sportscard Forum. See the link at the top of the page. It has the potential to be the best forum in the hobby.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Kevin- I appreciate the gesture and I even think it's a good idea. But again, these aren't my cards, and I would have to get the permission of the people who own them.

And I kind of doubt they would be interested. If you give a card your blessing, it is unclear to me that it would sell for more money. And if you say it's no good and I had to return it- and let's say several cards fell into this category- a consignor might ask for his whole collection back. Very slippery slope for me.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Vargha

I think that the "baseball card collecting public who is large" reference was directed at Jay Wolt.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

D.C. - you were reading my mind -- that's what I thought when I read his post. I was and still am wondering where more of these post-war collectors are. Wayne, we are a small happy family over on the post-war forum and let the pre-war board handle the "dirty" stuff.

[Archive]

Posted By: John Basilone

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Wayne,

Wonderful to hear from you. I always thought you were one of the greatest guys on CU and LTS.

As others have said there is a postwar forum here that seems to be doing well. Please chime in.

I agree with your commeny about CU--enough people had multiple identities that it was getting ridiculous.

God Bless,

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I've been collecting baseball cards for over 40 years, and I can remember about 30 of them...

I've never heard of LTS, nor Kevin Saucier... and I'm not really aware of how my lack of knowledge has detracted from my collecting. Who is Kevin?

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

That crunching sound you all just heard was the sound of dozens of egos being crushed with the knowledge that Frank has never heard of "LTS" or Kevin.

None of those people will ever be the same, I'm sure.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Frank,

Of the 150-200 (thats a guess) members on LTS I would bet noone has heard of you? There is a whole world you are not aware of if you collect just ungraded sportscards.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

Sounds like LTS may be made up primarily of PSA Registry guys. So it doesn't surprise me that Frank, as well as many others of us on this board, have not heard of it.

It's okay with me as I have nothing in common with them.

/S/ A confirmed "armpit" collector.

[Archive]

Posted By: Wayne Ellis

Dan,

I don't have your email address anymore. Can you drop me an email at wayne840@gmail.com.

Thanks,

Wayne

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

Does anyone like bottled water?

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"dozens of egos being crushed with the knowledge that Frank has never heard of "LTS" or Kevin.

Personally my ego is not crushed as all. Although some may disagree, I'm not sure I had enough to crush.

Bottled water is way over-rated. Haven't they proved that some brands use regular tap water? Leon...this is on-topic as I'm sure it wil leading to soaking .


Kevin

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well my comment was sincere. I see Kevin posted, I still don't know who he is...

I know about Mr. Lipset. Buck Barker, E C Wharton-Tigar... I've exchanged emails with Bill Heitman. Used to talk with Bill Haber on the telephone, he knew a bunch about ball cards and ball players. Jim Horne and Richard Egan, I know about those guys.

Seriously, what is Kevin's forte? I infer from the posts that he has something to do with card grading. I was just seeking some enlightenment...

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Frank, you weren't seeking enlightenment at all. You were trying to be demeaning. Which is nothing new for you, I know.

Kevin, my last post wasn't a jab at you, it was directed toward Frank, who evidently felt that he just couldn't let this thread go by without coming in and letting us know how unimportant it all is to him.

As for bottled water, I prefer Dasani for myself but buy Aquafina for others since Aquafina is more popular, and thus is more liquid.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: David Vargha

I know of a Frank Wakefield who is a bluegrass artist. But I'm not familiar with the baseball card collecting one.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd Schultz

I met Kevin at the 2006 National--nice guy.

I met and re-met several Net54 and LTS guys at the 2007 National--it was all good. Had beers with many of them, even at the same time. There was no us vs. them atmosphere at all.

At the 2007 National, I listened to collectors from those two boards explain to me the nuances of certain OJ cards, Topps Venezuelans, W502s, Plows, stadium postcards, D304s, '72 Topps Baseball, Obaks and other things of interest.

I chatted with collectors from their teens to their 60s that participate on these boards, and all shared the same passion. I drank with the moderators of each forum, again at the same time. Two thumbs up to both.

My point: Go to the National, and do some face to face interaction. You can't beat it. See you in Chicago--the first drink's on me.

[Archive]

Posted By: pas

Frank, Kevin is trying to establish himself as what I refer to as an "ubergrader," expressing opinions on whether the grading services have appropriately authenticated cards. He has made many posts concerning the detection of various types of alterations, and I guess each of us has to judge his qualifications for him or herself.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

Al -- some of that bottle water is actually tap water. How do you know what you are getting?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Al,

Absolutely right and par for the course.

You could not help even as just an occasional casual reader of Net54 not know who Kevin Saucier is.

[Archive]

Posted By: Marty

I believe that Kevin has a greater ability to identify alterations for two reasons. He has done quite a bit of experimentation to see what the results of different actions are. The second is he spends more time looking at the cards than I believe that the TPG do. He stated that he will spend 15 minutes to an hour looking at a card. I am here to say that if the grading compinies spent that much time, there would be far fewer errors in holders. I recall hearing that when PSA started, they would weigh cards to help detect alterations. I do not know how many different alterations, other than trimming, will change the weight of a card.

Most people, not the doctors, want the TPG to get it correct every time. If they spent 15 to 60 minutes to grade your cards, what would the cost be, what would the backlog be. What would happen to the $5-10 grading specials?

I work for a manufacturing company, and I know that quality has its price. I believe that all the TPG are all for profit corporations and they have the same type of issues to deal with. I believe that they all feel that they do as good of a job as they need to, but would like it to be better. Sometimes it is how the warranty portion is handled. Companies have a budget for warranty and they expect it to be spent. This is not justification for errors, just an expectation.

I have not thought Kevin's idea all the way through, but I would think that for it to work out the best is to have the other TPG to buy into it. I can see some contacting Kevin and paying him to to to an auction house and inspect some of the cards and having him report back to them. If this happens, the opinion should only be between Kevin and his client, since that is who is paying for the service, which is only an opinion.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Given Kevin's skills, I wonder if he would ever consider starting a new grading service? I'm sure he could find some backers to help him get it off the ground, and while there are already three or four major services, there is always room for a better one.

Of course I am assuming this is something Kevin wants to do, when in fact he may not. But I do believe he has the ability.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Barry,

That actually sounds a lot more like it would work. If it were a whole new service, it could be a pricier but more credible grade. For all we point out the differences between PSA, SGC and GAI, they really are all very much like one another.

A company that charged $50-$100 for routine service and took much more than 30-60 seconds with a card would definitely be different than the others. I suspect that a slab from that company would also carry more weight than the others - PSA/SGC/GAI would come to be seen as commodities within the grading world.

Anything Kevin can do before a sale is more likely to work. It's the after-sale aspect of his review that I think really creates the sticky issues.

J

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

Is this turning into a Six Degrees of Separation thread? Or World Series of card collecting?
I'll see your Heitman and raise you a Jim Beckett conversation.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I think any grading service can take a common T206 with general wear, look at it for half a minute, slap a label on it, charge $10, and call it VG.

But when you get into the higher priced higher grade cards, there is a need for a more thorough evaluation. And there is always room in the marketplace for a better mousetrap.

[Archive]

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I think that three different fields of expertise are involved in third party grading.

- authentication
- grade assessment
- alteration identification

My understanding is that Kevin solely contends that he has competitive knowledge in the last aspect.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I think the most difficult part of the process is detecting subtle alterations. Grading a card isn't all that complicated; most of the people who read this board could probably do it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Exactly, Barry. Commodity cards are better suited to commodity grading approaches. The quick look method is more appropriate for lower value cards, and in turn the lower value cards would not be well matched with any expensive review. So in terms of both extent of review and pricing, the common cards and current grading are about right for one another.

But high end cards - either by rarity or grade/condition - definitely merit more money spent on review and also a more thorough review. Both the cost and approach are a good match.

Gil - I thought of that too although I was only thinking grade and alteration. But somehow there has to be a stream flow of both parts of the expertise, with the endorsements of all parts being indicated on the card. Like maybe make Kevin a stop on the road to PSA, or whatever. He gives it the alteration thumbs up, and they give it the grade, etc.

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Joann- agreed that Kevin's skills would be geared to the high end market, and he would have to charge a more substantial fee for his services. But if you're going to spend five figures on a high grade card, it would be money well spent.

[Archive]

Posted By: Marty

What would seem to provide the best value to me is to send a raw high end card to Kevin, have him review it and send it in to the grading company and returned to Kevin. This way there is no chance of swaping cards. He could then put on his sticker, maybe even a different sticker than an in holder review sticker.

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

If you are planning to spend thousands of dollars on a card, either (1) you should be knowledgeable enough to evaluate it yourself before buying it or (2) have the expert opinion of a TPG that will stand behind its opinions. Since option #1 doesn't describe many of the high-dollar purchasers (either for lack of expertise or lack of time and ability to preview auction lots in person), that leaves option #2. The only TPG I know of at present that stands behind its work consistently is SGC. Bring them a "whoops" in their holder and they will make good. I just don't need a double-plus-good extra layer of experts investigating a prospective purchase provided that the TPG will stand behind its work.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

What's A TPG? I'm terrible with abbreviations.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Third Party Grader. Barry, you'll never make it in this field giving up so quickly.

[Archive]

Posted By: Marty

Barry, I take TPG to be Third Party Grading.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I knew it would be too easy.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"that leaves option #2. The only TPG I know of at present that stands behind its work consistently is SGC."


Label this post as hearsay if you choose:

Only problem with that is rumors have it through a very good source that SGC "may" be kicking back slabbed cross-over cards as trimmed when they might not be. Again, this is where the opinion part comes in.

I can say with all honesty that lately I have seen more slabbed cards labeled trimmed or altered that have a high probability of not being altered at all. Unfortunately this is, in my opinion, a way one grading company can devalue the opinion of another or maybe they are tightening up a little...I just don’t know. No attacks please.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Interesting thought, Kevin.

No attacks, but let me ask a question.

These slabbed crossover cards that were rejected as trimmed by SGC - did you see/evaluate them before they were submitted to SGC?

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: pas

is that what kevin is talking about is that over a certain value, sgc rightly is reluctant to express an opinion on whether a card is trimmed without taking it out of the holder, which of course its owners don't want

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Nieves

No, he's saying that he thinks SGC is automatically rejecting most crossovers as trimmed in hopes that the people submitting the crossovers lose faith in cards graded by the other companies.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

where is the upside in that for a grading company?

I talked to SGC about that when submitting an order a couple months ago and it makes no business sense to be making any sort of representations or implied promises of grade prior to cracking out a card, regardless of its value.