Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.

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Posted By: peter chao

Gil,

Leon doesn't have to be judge and jury here. All he needs to do is to make a reasonable decision...and he's done it.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Leon, I guess I find your last post just as disquieting. Jay got banned "because of his incessant rants about the ads that would never stop". So now it wasn't a personal affront but the subject matter that led him to be banned? What if I or anyone else wanted to revisit that issue and was as persistent as Jay--are we warned and then booted?

Barry, I do believe that personal attacks could form the basis of someone getting banned, although I would probably have to see them reach a particularly serious level, have little or probably nothing to do with sportscards and be repeated after warning. I believe that Jay Behrens' posts on ad banners fails to satisfy two of those criteria.

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Posted By: Dave F

I think for the record it is pretty much known the majority of people Leon has talked to did agree with this decision. Can you make everyone happy? Of course not.

I've been coming on this board now for two years. Honestly...I can't recall Jay having been involved in a whole ton of educated card discussions, unless most were based before that two year period. Maybe he was more involved before Leon became the moderator? I really don't know. Maybe he has and I just didn't notice...but for the most part I can name off most the people that do get in those threads. I'm not trying to speak badly of Jay...I don't know him for one. Have never conversed with him other than one time a few weeks ago he said something smart-alecky in a thread related to me and I emailed him privately about his comments...he never replied.

I do think that Jay is probably extremely educated when it comes to cards (lord knows i'm not)...I just wish he would have shown more of that instead of going off on his crusade or throwing a jab here or there.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You know, there are times in life where you can either take door A or door B and you just have to make a decision. I know Leon gave this a lot of thought, and he went with his gut. He was fed up with what was going on. If he and Jay work things out he can undo the ban. It takes two seconds.

I disagree with Tim, Joann, and others that there was some higher principle involved. No higher principle at all- he just got fed up and did what he did. I have no problem with it at all. If Jay can stop complaining about the same damn thing every time, then Leon will reinstate him.

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Posted By: BcD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2yVZCVLK3E




BcD

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Posted By: Ricky Y

I hate to see Jay go...but you have to do what is best for all as the mod. I hope at some point the hatchet can be buried and he can come back again. I've been a moderator on a message board before..and its not a easy job by any means..you do it because you love it and care. This one seems to be one of those that require a lot of monitoring..and my hat is off to Leon. Despite some of the viciousness that rises up occasionally here..its still a wonderful place to come to, read, learn about and see some wonderful cards and stories.

Ricky Y

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Posted By: leon

You are failing to take into account the other times I have been ripped apart by Jay over the banners. How much does it take to get to a point of taking action, in your opinion? I believe this is at least the 3rd time so far that Jay has done this. How many more times Todd?

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Boy Josh hit the nail on the head for me.

I think banning Jay was bad.....Especially since it was between Leon and himself.

Jay had some very good points that others tend to ignore.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Such talk of lofty principles and ideals is making me hungry. What a utopian society we live in here! Alas, I was unaware.

Leon banned Jay for the same reason Jay would ban Leon: he got sick and tired of him. As for Leon, I've ripped him pretty good out here over his Mastro stance; that being said, I consider him a good friend and an incredibly decent guy. You can disagree with someone and still like them. Really.

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Posted By: barrysloate

If this were my board- and thank goodness it isn't- here is how I would deal with a board member who I felt was out of line:

I would look for a really, really tall stairwell, with lots of steps, and I would have the perpetrator stand at the very top and bend over. Then I would kick him in the ass really hard and watch him tumble all the way down, head over heels, like Groucho Marx did when he was kicked down three flights of stairs in "A Night at the Opera."

Hey, I run a very tight ship!

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Which two. As I see it, Jay (1) questioned Leon's character (by saying his posts on Mastro Auctions were influenced by their banner advertiser status) and called him a liar (the undefined REA situation) and (2) was asked to stop saying such things but persisted. I would think (1) falls under "particularly serious level" and (2) falls under "repeated after a warning". So as I see it there are your two. What am I missing?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I believe Jay's comments were repeated, and I do not believe anyone else thinks otherwise. I do not believe his comments about Mastro rose to any level of seriousness that warrants banishment, and I think those comments were more than tangentially related to sports cards.

You may say that Leon's character was assailed by the Mastro reference. I would agree to some extent, but again, I do not believe it is/was all that personal or serious. Fact is, if you are accepting any remuneration (and I mean anything more than a Happy Meal--certainly $30K would apply)from someone(s) about whom you later render an opinion or endorsement, you are subject to criticism about the objectivity of your opinion. Period. Does that make you an evil person whose opinion must be readily discarded? No, but it does not mean that you are above having your motives questioned either. Hey, with all due respect, Leon solicited opinions about banner ads before taking the step of implementing them, and he was told by some of how it might look and what misgivings others might have about it. He made the choice,and in my view, he has to take the bad with the good. Frankly, it's a logical extension of any conflict of interest analysis, IMHO, and explains why many times people excuse themselves from a position so as to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

Mr. Lichtman, I do not disagree with you when you said Leon got fed up and reacted. My beef is with some notion that it was for the good or at the will of the board. I don't see that at all, and I'd rather it was simply called for what it was. And yes, you are correct, one can disagree with someone and still like them.

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Posted By: quan

if there's a poll, i'm against banning jay. i like jay/leon's symbiotic relationship (mostly jay needing to rip on leon ), kind of a checknbalance system.

when everyone say it is leon's board...that is jay's whole argument that it should be a board of collectors for collectors, not this revenue-generating machine. jay may be over-estimating how much leon makes and how that affects leon's decisioning concerning board matters.

i've met both and they're nice and fair people (and would probably have no problem sitting down drinking coors light together)...i support and contribute whenever i can to both boards and hope they can work things out. at the end of the day i just want to buy and talk about cards (preferably caramels) and thinking about how every year leon can afford to outbid me by 20k or so .

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

there you go stirring the pot again Quan-- Coors light? You could have named any one of a hundred beers and an equal number of other beverages preferable to Coors light. The only thing fostered (pun intended) by sharing Coors light is a good case of the, well, you know.

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Posted By: Joe D.

remind me to stand behind you whenever we head down a flight of steps. I don't want the boot.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

someone and CONSTANTLY baiting them to the point where they just can't win. That's what Jay did/does with Leon. He baits him to the point and pushes the issue to the point where Leon CAN'T walk away or Jay says he's hiding something. If he acts on it, he's a bad guy. I've seen MANY people disagree with something Leon does, portray it in a constructive manner and he takes it fine. Might not mean he changes his behavior, or, for that matter, even should change it but respectful disagreement is fine. It's when it crosses a line into the attacks and all the baiting. I think it's always bad to ban someone and when any other alternative exists, it should be taken. This is by no means the first time that this happened with Jay and I'm sure, over time, Leon had just had it....

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

For what it's worth, when I saw Leon's request that skydash e-mail him about choosing an auction house, my first thought was that skydash was going to hear a sales pitch for Mastro. I base that soley on what I view as Leon repeatedly going to the mat for Mastro and seemingly becoming emotionally involved while defending that company when negative posts were made. And I know Leon has argued to the contrary that he treats all the advertisers the same, and that's fine. My perception differs from what he's saying, but hey, maybe that's a shortcoming on my part. I honestly don't get too worked up over it.

That being said, I'm amazed that Leon waited so long to ban Jay and don't blame him a bit.

One other thing: I shake my head that when certain threads reach a certain length, someone will post a plea to Leon to lock it. And how some people complain so vehemently when contentious threads that aren't soley related to cardboard have a long shelf life. What's the big deal? You have to know 20-30 posts in just what a thread is about and where it's headed. If it bugs you, ignore it ... don't click on it! How hard is that? When I see a topic about "What's Stan Musial's rookie card?" or "What would you do with Barry Bonds' home run ball?" I know they don't interest me, so I don't read them. Again ... how hard is it to do that? If a topic has 150-plus posts, it must be interesting to quite a few folks. But just because a person doesn't like it or in their mind it's lived long enough, he calls for it to be locked? I don't get it.

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Posted By: quan

yea seems like everyone's had their say so i'm doing my part to help push the thread past 100 posts.

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Posted By: Cat (ret.)

If there is a poll, I say Leon didn't ban him fast enough.

If I didn't know better I would think Jay had a side bet on the over/under of how quickly he could get banned. Leon warned him over and over and over "to stop it." Jay went on and on and on.


P.S. Also, I hope Jay wins the lottery soon so we also don't have to listen to how little money he has [again].

OK, I'll crawl back into my cave now!!! Promise.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Quan, post some youtubes and Seinfeld quotes and this thread will get over 100 in no time.

If you're really daring, claim that you know more about SNL than Barry and Hal.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Thanks for the response. I guess this is something about which we'll agree to disagree. I don't disagree that Jay was not alone in raising the issue of the potential for bias or at least the perception of such when Leon instigated the discussion about whether banner adverstising should be allowed. Where we disagree pertains to how to interpret the totality of Jay's posts. It seemed crystal clear to me that he was accusing Leon of being unduly influenced by banner advertising revenue when making his various posts, that those posts would have read materially differently had there been no banner advertising. Yet other Board members who also opined Leon should not accept banner advertising never came close to such accusations. In addition, as I said, in regard to that REA situation he flat out calls Leon a liar. Those to me are what distinguishes Jay's case and at least in my estimation makes his cross the line. With that said, though, I will say that I greatly respect Jay's knowledge about card issues and the informative nature of many of his posts, and hope that in time this can be resolved and that he will be reinstated, and that should that happen he will concentrate his posts to card issues.

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Posted By: Joann

Dang. Add Corey to the All-Eloquence list of Josh, Tim and Todd above. In this case I don't agree with the content, but cannot help but admire the construction and presentation of the argument.

Of course, Jeff L still wins in the most-humor-per-word basis among the lawyer types. And Jason L wins the most-humor-period award. hee

OK. Enough awards for one night. Back to homework so I can try to finagle my writing to make it better!

J

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I don't really have anything of value to add, I just want Joann to tell me I'm eloquent.

-Al

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Posted By: eric p.

joe p. deserves to be banned, i can't stand him myself, i would probably give up my entire collection for the opportunity to get him inside the octagon and i wouldn't be choking him out either!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Eric, really? You do know that Joe is like a 75 year old little dude right?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Don't I get a little credit for my Groucho Marx reference?

Jay made his point about his dislike for the banner ads a very long time ago. He made it, and we all got it. He conveniently reiterated that point any time he disagreed with Leon on just about anything. If you looked back at all the times he protested, I doubt many of them were on threads that were even discussing banner ads. He has harangued Leon to no end on this issue and I think anyone has the right to say enough is enough.

And keep in mind Jay has not been exiled to Devil's Island. He simply lost his posting privileges on a chatboard. Those can be reinstated by mutual agreement. Where I do agree with some of the dissenters is there have been worse transgressions on the board that have slipped by without being punished. Fine, Leon showed less than consistent judgment there. If it were me a lot of people on the board would have been banned sooner. But like I said, you wouldn't want me running the board. Leon does it well enough.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Corey,
Your reasoning on the "two things" post escapes me:

"[Jay] (2) was asked to stop saying such things but persisted. ....

[this] (2) falls under "repeated after a warning".


Isn't the whole point of free speech, which Leon says he supports, that you can't legitimately be forced to "stop saying such things" that are unpopular?

Let's see: X says something Y dislikes. Y warns X not to do it again. X does it again. Then Y can do anything he wants to X, just because X was warned????

Doesn't sound like free speech to me.
_________________________

This issue seems like the crux of the whole Leon-Jay problem.

On the one hand, I'm pretty sure Leon was a lot more patient with Jay than many would have been in his position, and that Jay did his position no favors by being so relentless in expressing it.

On the other hand, Jay (or anybody) should have the right to express the unpopular opinion AS OFTEN AS HE WANTS, period. That doesn't mean you, I, or anyone has to pay attention to him.

I for one did pay attention to his contentions, at least for a long time until they seemed to become merely repetitive, because I am deeply suspicious of Mastro and I don't like the idea that they might be given sweetheart status by those who run the board. I think Leon knows my view on this. I am also willing to agree to disagree with him on this issue without destroying our relationship. But I don't think anybody who disagrees more vocally should be stifled.

And it's clear from this thread that a lot of regular posters feel it was not a good decision.

But maybe a cooling-off period was necessary for emotional reasons. That I can live with.

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Posted By: eric p.

i don't know what he looks like or how old he is but i do know i can't stand him.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

In extremely short hand.
If anyone doubts at all that JayB style scything and demeaning commentary keeps people away from this board...don't.
From the time I came here first perhaps 2 1/2 or so years ago, JayB and Gil were on my a*& big time, and in fact did manage to run me off for perhaps 6 or so months. Weirdly enough, at that time JayB loved to exhort his efforts and claimed proudly his ability to run people off was in fact the VICTIM'S fault, that if they weren't able to hang around and be castigated and made mockery of - well they just weren't strong enough for this world.
I must have read him write that sentiment 30 times in 2 years. And he chuffed and lorded over it, even as the extraordinary mean spirited nature of his posts poured forth, and as apologists on this board wrote amazingly of admiring his 'straight shooter'ness' and 'telling it like it is'.
What a bunch or bull dust.
He told it like HE SAW it.
Not how it is.
But all along claiming virtue, and moral high ground, and not once did I see signs of a truly morally virtuous human being.
He was nothing but rude, and condescending, and bullying through it all, while currying a couple of friends on the board to share his venom with.

And perhaps, once ever 8-10 weeks he'd show his zeenut Jim Thorpe, and every other month make some semi-useful suggestion to someone. Outside of that, he was a malicous canker whose 'charming candor' - whilst () appreciated by Joann and a couple others, ABSOLUTELY scared off many other board members and read as nothing but school yard bravado. He, in my opinon, was 100% one of those people who would have been smacked in the mouth by any number of people (including myself) if he said to their face what he typed about them on this board, and surprise surprise - by private email. Yes, that's right, he was a player in that regard too.


Tim, and others who wonder if he had really reached a threshold.....
He reached it several times over, and it was only because you might not have been the target of his abuse that you might find contrary argument to his banning. No one, I will state with absoluteness no one, would have taken the number of shots Leon has from this guy - and just lived with it because this is America and people can say whatever they want.

The guy was pure muck in my opinion, committed the 'Dorskind' act 100's of times over, just never so long windedly. Glad he's got his own aimoo box to stand on somewhere else so he can share that special personality with others who tolerate that 'quirky' kind of vicousness.

There, just my O.


Daniel



Edited for one gramatical correction.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Todd,

Why do you insist on stating incorrectly that Leon's take is $30,000? The man said on a number of occasions that his take is $15,000?

Furthermore, are you saying that Leon could remain impartial with regard to his advertisers if they paid him in Big Macs but not with $300 a month? Are you suggesting the man has no personal integrity? No matter how much money he makes as moderator it is possible that he could still maintain a level of impartiality. There is no evidence that he is taking money for the sole purpose to argue on behalf of a rogue auctioneer. The burden of proof with such an accusation is on Jay and yourself and not the other way around.

Based on the amount of hits this site gets, I think Leon could make a lot more money and I hope he does at some point, if only to defray the pain of threads such as these.


edited for typos

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Posted By: barrysloate

Tim- I don't interpret free speech to mean you can say whatever you want whenever you want without consequences. Earlier today some dimwit who nobody even knows compared Leon's ways to Hitler. Leon banned him moments later.

Do you have a problem with that banishment?

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Posted By: leon

Here is a piece of wisdom I learned from a very smart man.

When someone is part of a community they give up certain rights for the betterment of the community, and to be a part of it.

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Posted By: peter chao

Barry,

If it were an old board member that just lost his temper, I would have a problem with it. But Jay had been warned a number of times.

As long as Leon's actions are reasonable then he should exercise his right to ban people.

I don't think we should expect him to act like a judge and spend days weighing the consequences before he acts.

Peter C.

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Posted By: leon

I agree with you so much, and you said everything I feel, so well, I want to kiss you. (well, sort of) If anyone wants to know how I really feel, read his post again and imagine my name in the "your name" spot as the author...You hit the nail squarely on the head. Some won't like your honesty though....

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Posted By: Joann

Well Al - succinctness DOES have its virtues too! Another one I could learn from.

And Barry, I think you hold the spot tonight for stepping out of character. lol. When the King of Sage starts posting about kicking people's rear ends down staircases, that's stepping out of character even with the cool classic movie tie-ins.

And E-Dan. Wow. I don't know what to say. You are usually very good about stating your point. But your method is usually a meandering, poetic stream, and tonight it was a rushing, roaring river. I feel bad that you felt that way, or that anyone would. I honestly don't see Jay that way - maybe I take him with a grain of salt. But you have certainly made your view of things clear and compelling.

Joann

Oh - and Dan B. I did get that Super-Size Me photo, and don't quite know what to make of it. Will email you sometime when I can fully describe it. Strange thing, that's for sure.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well Joann, truth be told, I wouldn't really kick anybody down a long flight of stairs. But it was a metaphor for how quickly I would give a malcontent the boot...it was a joke, but I'm sure you knew that.

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Posted By: Dave F

Well...I've pretty much agreed with Leon's stance these last few days as well as the action taking this far into it..but now that he wants to kiss Daniel.....I feel dirty

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Leon, I'm wondering how far a person can go before they get a warning...is this kind of talk acceptable on the board?

"joe p. deserves to be banned, i can't stand him myself, i would probably give up my entire collection for the opportunity to get him inside the octagon and i wouldn't be choking him out either!"

How about what Jerry Rucker said yesterday about Jay? Dorskin gets a pass because he apologized on the phone to YOU. And someone already mentioned the other unnamed person whom we all know that made far worse email threats than Dorskin could ever imagine and I see he's posted in this thread.

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Posted By: leon

I can't hardly warn everyone on the forum can I? C'mon, there aren't enough hours in the day. I'll tell you what. You have my blessing, and backing, to start policing the board. Cool? Just run it by the board, as I do, with what you are doing and lets see how it goes....

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

No, I don't want the job...I'm trying to make a greater point that I always thought you could say whatever you wanted as long as it didn't cross a line and you put your full name next your post. What Jay said doesn't seem like it crossed the line to me, but then again I have never been under the constant pounding that Jay liked to dish out to you and apparently to Daniel E. I also have met Jay in person and have a better grasp of his personality and I'm sure that biases me in some way.

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Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

I also support what E. Daniel wrote 100%. What ever happened to being responsible for your own actions. Jay has nobody to blame but himself. I find it hard to believe the excuses some people (whom I respect) make for him. Wasn't this Jays second or third chance here? He was banned before and re-instated by Leon. History repeated itself. Same behavior, same result. At some point in your life, you have to learn from your mistakes. I wish Jay well. Maybe some anger management would do him well.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

First of all I want to say I do not have a problem with Leon banning Jay. Contrary to what he says (and he has said it in the past) this is his board, so you have to go with his decisions or move on, or in Jay's case pester him until he has enough. I believe that there have been far worse going on than read Jay's rantings.
The whole Dorskin thing still amazes me that he was not banned when so many people came forward that they also received disturbing emails. We do not give warnings to criminals when they are caught and punish them if they do it again. A one time incident is one thing but the numerous emails just warrant some kind of suspension.
As far as the REA thing, don't jump to conclusions until you ask yourself why REA used the Scott/Jay board as the one they have point a link to on there emails.

Leon, I ask you this. Allow me to start a thread (one time)with a link to the other board and allow the people that wish to find it and participate to do so. To me if you do not it just goes to show that YOU are making decisions for the whole group.

Lee

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Glad you had your big O
Standing up to Jay.
Not only behind his back, but when he is forbidden to even view your post.
What a man.
Stand up to him in the schoolyard?
They are still yelling at you from the bus.
And flinchfree: you are still cowering.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Why not just harvest emails from Net54 and send out a mass emailing with a link to the other board. From what I understand there are no rules against unsolicited emails.

Yes....I know I'm a smartass, but I can't help it.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

What a thankless job Leon has. It is somewhat like. but perhaps more difficult than, herding cats. Whatever decison he makes on any topic is suject to criticism. He has persisted, generally with pretty good humor, for much longer than I would have. Had I been subjected to the crap that Leon's been subjected to recently, I would probably have banned myself.

I don't always agree with Leon's decisions. In that regard, insofar as Jay is concerned, I'm riding the fence -- a position that is admittedly hard on the crotch. However, whether or not I agree with Leon on Jay or any other given issue, I absolutely respect the fact that he has the guts to make a decsion, unpopular though it may be, and that he has both the guts and the patience to deal with the backlash that some of those decisions create.

Debate and discussion is fine. However, ultimately, decisions have to be made and no decision will please everyone. Had it been me, I would long ago have offered my position as moderator to any one of the many backseat drivers who always have the right answer (after the fact) so that: 1) they could learn what it's like to deal with all of the silly bull**** that goes on here; and 2) I could take my turn sitting back and second-guessing them. Assuming that there would actually be any takers, I suspect that many, if not most, would soon decide the the position of moderator was not all that wonderful and quickly seek to be relieved of that responsibility.

To my way of thinking, that is the crux of the matter. Leon can't always (ever?) make 100% of the people on this board happy. Nor should he be held to that standard because it is an entirely unfair expectation. If you think you can do a better job, let Leon know. Maybe he'll be willing to let you try. Just my two cents.

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Posted By: eric p.

dan, i don't know you and you don't know me, i rarely ever post on this board, if leon feels he wants to ban me from the board he can do that, i have no problem with leon, where i live and grew up, if you run your mouth recklessly like joe does, the are consequences for your actions, i don't allow anyone to talk to me in a demeaning way or to disrespect me, period.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Gil, You have such a good point. Did you notice the he didn't even leave an email address. With the likes of unbanned participants I can understand why you wouldn't want to put your email address up.

I believe that the board consensus here is that REA is perceived as the most reputable auction house yet Leon never seems to mention them and stand up and defends them. This is another example of LEON's board. yes, Leon you are held to another standard because you are our leader in our community.

Lee

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Posted By: leon

No, I don't want it posted. It's been a rule all the way back to Elliot.....If your 135 members want to participate they will....if not, then they won't.

edited to add...in retrospect I don't care therefore I posted it for you....

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

It's up to 140. It's jabs like that Leon that will send more and more over there. There has been 10 new members since Jay got banned. Why not give people the opportunity?

So Elliott all of Elliot's rules still stand?

Lee

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, but Kenny, the life of a moderator! The dough! The women! The glamour! I can see Leon right now rubbing his hands together saying "First you get the power, then you get the money, then you get the women ...."