Leon has opinions just like the rest of us

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jason- you had my undivided attention until you said "Bush is a moral upstanding individual" at which point my eyes glazed over and you lost me completely.

Are we talking about the same Bush? (hey, might as well throw some politics into this soon to be sordid mess).

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Barry - I agree it's speculation, but I do think it's highly likely. This board has a reputation and great status and momentum. It is likely to be around for a very long time. I am assuming that the board will be here after Leon leaves and even several moderators after that.

At some point, it's hard not to imagine that the banner ads will come into play in a big way. We just don't see it now b/c Leon is being so reponsible about it. I think that his behavior in this situation is actually highly unusual in that we probably could not expect most people, including future mods, to do the same.

I look at this as a transition time. The board, going back to fullcount days, has always had the feel of a co-op and community, with the moderator being a position of trust and not necessarily the owner in the strictest sense.

With Leon being moderator, it still has that co-op kind of air to it. But with banner ads the foundation is in place for it to become less homey and more commercial. With Leon in place, we have both - ads and informal feel. I'm not sure such stewardship will be that easy to find in the future, and the ads will already be in place.

And a few people have commented in this thread that have started participating in the board more recently. Comments like "this is Leon's board and he can do what he wants with it", and "Leon is the owner and he can do what he wants and you can leave if you don't like it" scare me quite a bit.

Even though this is, in a technical sense, Leon's board, it has never felt like that to us and he's never acted that way (note that even the banner ads were open for discussion, and he only moved forward after the majority of the board said no problem). This board has been passed down from person to person, and the moderator is a position of trust and respect of the community - not an "owner" who can do as he pleases.

Thankfully, Leon acts like it's a position of trust. We may not be so lucky next time, especially now that there will be money involved in the position. Leon took it because he loved the hobby and was willing to put the time into it. He loved it so much he'd do it for free! lol. What's not to doubt about that motive?? What will the motive of the next moderator be?

J

Oh - and PS, (no, not PS as in PostScript, PS as in Peter Spaeth!) I know we can vote with our feet - that is true. But as mentioned above this board has reputation and momentum that will be hard to break, and hard to get everyone moving elsewhere, especially if the change to a more commerical air is gradual. As also mentioned above, we already have newcomers saying it's Leon's board and he can do what he wants. I don't really remember people saying that a lot in the past about moderators. Maybe I missed it.

I guess I'm just kind of a throwback in this sense. Freedoms in the world are often surrendered voluntarily and over time, not taken by force. Stupid analogy, but I do think of it when I hear comments like that. So voting with our feet would certainly be possible, but probably difficult to do and maybe even difficult to see when the need has arisen, exactly.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey Joann -- are you getting paid by the word? You better finish law school quickly -- you've got a bright future in law!

[Archive]

Posted By: pas

Joann, I hear you, but I have faith in the free market.

[Archive]

Posted By: John S

Dave,

Jay and Bruce hanging out together...you might want to get rights to that idea because that is one reality show that I certainly would watch.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

lolol. No, Jeff. Not paid by the word. Just something I have great concern about that, for some reason, I have trouble articulating well.

You mean I can get paid for doing this??? haha

J

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

What is sad is the people like skydash that come across this board looking for help and/or advice on actual related material that have to then get caught up paying attention to a bunch of raving drooling lunatics.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

You know I respect your thoughts. You make good points. I have no defense against future hypothetical situations. I can only defend the history of the last 2 years I have moderated and the last year with banner ads. There are many more "what ifs", if you really think about it. We could play that game all day long......take care...

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Joann- I'm not so worried about the future direction this board may take. Let's live in the present. All internet sites tend to become more commercial and allow more advertising as time goes on. I realize we are a little different, as this is not ebay but a site for the gathering and disseminating of knowledge (as well as a place for all hell to break loose). Leon has found a good balance between accepting revenue but keeping things in proper balance.

Maybe the next guy will be a money grubbing pig, but there is no next guy so I'm not going to worry about it. If it became too commercial, and was rife with conflicts of interest, it might cease to exist. Or somebody else might start a new board with more emphasis on what a chatboard should be. Who knows, but who cares. Greenland might melt and sink NYC beneath the ocean before that happens, and a chatboard suddenly won't seem so important.

Dave- skydash knows exactly what he is doing and I know he has had many laughs over the craziness on this board. He's a good sport and a regular guy with a sense of humor and he is well grounded. He will not let a few lunatics get in the way of his plan to sell his collection.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Leon,

You don't have to defend the history of the last two years - your record and high regard on this board speaks for itself. I'm glad that we can have different views on things and not let it get in the way of a good relationship. I appreciate that.

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: pas

Sha, la, la la la, let's live for today -- the Grassroots.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Thanks....I consider you a friend too...and we can have a pleasant debate without it getting too personal. Everyone that knows me (and there are many)knows I am just a regular guy like everyone else. Not really much different....and btw, wish me luck...I have a softball game in about an hour. I love to play....best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

Leon, I really don't care how much money you make from advertising. But why not just post it and end the discussion. This seems to be the problem with some of the posters/lurkers. Hey it's America, make as much as you can, thats business. Myself, I am glad you have this forum for all of the collectors. As far a Mastro or any auction house, we all make our own decisions to consign or bid in these auctions.

joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Koteles

Hitting a softball is like hitting a watermelon ,your fat lard butt has an hour and a half to swing ....uh, good luck in doing that !

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

And conveniently Leon has ducked the major issue, the lies or truth behind what Leon made claim to me about REA/Rob Lifson. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what these claims are if they are true instead of the lies that he initially claimed in the emails he sent me.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Advertising rates are $300 per banner on the front page per month...and $100 per month on all other pages together. I only allow up to 9 banners at a time on the front page. I give discounts for payment up front.....at the end of the first year...after all expenses and income tax...I will probably make about 15k. I wish it were more ....take care

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I have to run....all I said is there are no saints in the hobby and you don't know everything there is.....I prefer to leave it at that. I might need to take the advice of several professors and lawyers and other respected board members very soon, that have sent emails this evening...I would rather you stay, believe it or not. It is getting a little old though......

[Archive]

Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Geez Leon. The worst of all is that - making that kind of money - it obviously makes you a dirty rotten Republican.

[Archive]

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

No one has called for my vote, but no one asked for that of Ted Holden (Hi Ted!) either.
I vote that persons should not be banned from this board because of their opinions. Nor should they be banned because of their style in presenting those opinions. And this applies to everyone (even those of us who exist as dual entities):

"Jay, you are the worst. Enough of your personal and political BS. This it not and never has been a matter of your right to an opinion or just putting in your 2 cents worth. It is your personal agenda to be a contrarian and poke insults at anybody that does not share your opinion. Buy yourself a soap box and go down to your city park and blabber all you want. Just get lost from here.

Leon, how long are you going to take his crap. PLEASE give him the big ole' Texas Boot.

Texas Ted"

[Archive]

Posted By: Jerry Rucker

Leon, Keep up the good work. I wouldn't trade the knowledge I have acquired on this forum for a years worth of banner advertising revenues.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Jerry, after the whole Dorskind incident, you obviously didn't learn anything as evidenced by your comment.

For the record, I have a nice little place on a lake here in MN.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: shane leonard

Leon,
I don't know what your income is for running this board, but to put up with this crap from Jay is not enough. You do a great job and a thankless one at that. Thanks for providing a place for me to come and learn each day about the greatest hobby in the world. Please don't eliminate the banner idea and depend on the guys on this board to pay. I think you have done a great job with it all.

Regards,
Shane Leonard

[Archive]

Posted By: George H. Counter

"Jay, Don't come to Texas, we have enough trailers already."

Jerry, not a cool post...

[Archive]

Posted By: anthony

here's my two "what if's???"

Q: what if jay were the moderator?
A: many upon many board members would leave.

Q: what if jay were to leave?
A: many upon many board members would be happy.

(i could ad a third but i'd get in trouble)

leon, you should charge more to p*ss jay off.
my personal opinion is that jay is a little jealous that he's not the moderator, leon's doing a job that 98% of us dont want...keep up the good work!

[Archive]

Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

......how things spin out of control.

Jay ASSSUMES that Leon is going to push Mastro to Skydash. Who knows what Leon was going to tell him?

Jay pushes REA to Skydash.

Somehow we get back to banners and Leon's income from them. A topic not broached in a long time.

Things get personal, feelings get hurt. Lurkers come out for their first post to voice their opinion.

Future problems years down the road get discussed.

And it all started because Leon was trying to help (direct) a guy who has one of the greatest vintage card discoveries in recent times!!

Man I love this board, and I bet most of you do too. It just amazes me how disfunctional we get sometimes. Remember, its about cards people. Cards.

BTW, if Leon makes $15,000 a year for babysitting us, thats just over $7 an hour based on a 40 hour week. Does anybody out there really want that job?

Randy

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

edited to anonymity...though I agree with what was said....(leon)

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Leon- Everyone has had their say, how about considering locking this thread?
tbob

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

Leon, thanks for the info on the advertising fees. You are certainly not getting rich with these fees.
Personally I would not like to see Jay banned from the board. He brings good information to the board sometimes.

It seems that Jay and Leon might have had problems in the past and we don't know all the details. That seems pretty normal, we are all human. Someday they may or may not resolve these issues, who knows.

Actually we don't have to know.

These posting come up once and a while, but most of the time information about cards are the headliners.

As far as Mastro is concerned, not sure what happened. I know Lifson and Mastro worked with each other in the past and do not know if there are hard feelings. If there are, it's not our business anyway.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: George H. Counter

Jay said: "the lies or truth behind what Leon made claim to me about REA/Rob Lifson."

Jay, why don't post the Lifson story?

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

WIKIPEDIA......
Details on the internet troll.......

"Trolls can be existing members of a community that rarely post and often contribute no useful information to the thread, but instead make argumentative posts in an attempt to discredit another person, concentrating almost exclusively on facts irrelevant to the point of the conversation, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. The key element under attack by a troll is known only to the troll."

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd Schultz

Thanks for the info, Leon, but I have a question about the math. Seems to me that $300/banner ad per month times 9 ads per month earns a gross of more than $32K per year, and that's just front page ads. Assuming the other ads bring more, I gotta believe you're grossing more than $30K per/yr. on banner advertising, even allowing for cash up front discounts.

Where I come from it is impolite to ask what other people make, and I don't care to know your personal business, but since the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, I do believe it is fair game to at least raise eyebrows as to impartiality under these circumstances. Count me as one who does not consider $30K to be chump change. I mean no offense and take no shot at your impartiality here, but the question seems to me to be a fair one.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Good Lord, he said after taxes and expenses. Where I come from getting abused by people hiding behind a keyboard for 15K a year is grounds for being institutionalized.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

Todd,

I don't mean to answer for Leon, but your number assumes that the ads are close to a sell out. I do not think that was the case in the last year. You also aren't factoring in taxes. Taxes alone will take your $30,000 down to $20,000.

Anybody who thinks Leon is doing this for the money is dreaming.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kyle

Here's our other options. Nothing against them, I read PSA's all the time, but I'll take Net54 for free, every day, thank you very much.

psa message board (lots of modern stuff)

board collectors society(rarely gets posts)

sportscardforum.com(1960s and 1970s is vintage here)

trading central.com(no thank you)


Many thanks to not only Leon, but the other moderators. Maybe Leon and the moderators should decide to abolish the ads, and charge a user fee for the message boards. Would that everyone happy? How can the entrepreneurial aspects of the hobby be so frowned upon. Every other website you visit has ads on it, and people who make their careers selling the ads, fixing glitches in the website. Look at CNN, ESPN, MLB.com. If the moderators really want to annoy us, they could make the ads pop-up ads.


edited links due to rules

[Archive]

Posted By: Darren

I just learned of these boards about a month ago. I have found answers to several of my questions and also purchased a few cards from members. After reading all the BS and bickering over the last 2 days, I think I will go away and let you children have at it.
Leon, if I were you, I would boot a few of these pricks.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Mike Ocards, if you want to see the definition of childish, look at your first line and take your own advice.


Obviously, a lot of people that seem to think my behaviour is borish don't act any better themselves.

Leon, what happened to the rule against personal attacks? Seems that the lurkers think it is OK as long as they are on your side and think they are safe from punishment.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

It's very difficult to protect you right about now. However, to protect the integrity of the board, everyone needs to have their full name by their post in this thread or be well known. Anyone not known needs to edit their responses, already posted in this thread, or put their name out here. In a little while (if I am still awake) I will need to edit out the comments if they aren't, it's only fair. I absolutely appreciate all of the support from the board and hope those that are only speaking their mind WILL put their names out here. Either way thanks so much. best regards

Todd S- email me privately if you want to and I will tell you the expenses more in detail. Gross is a tad above 30k......I wish a business got to keep gross as all profit.... I could keep more revenue brought in but I can explain better privately...

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam

"This board could have been run just as effectively with donations from the people here on the forum and we wouldn't even be having half of these discussions."

So why doesn't Leon just tell Jay how much money it takes to run the board annually and why doesn't Jay just pay that amount?

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

It's not about how much money is made. It's where the money comes from.

Leon, you can't have a rule stating there will be no personal attacks and then let them slide when things get heated. Of all the board rules, this probably the one that you do not enforce at all, so why have it if you aren't going to enforce it?

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Turner

What Jay is saying is....there was a time when the board had NO ads and did have a spot for donations. That way no one could say the Moderator was playing favorites.

What gets me is Kyle just posted a bunch of message boards a few posts up. When Scott Elkins posted about the Aimoo board it was taken down because Leon did not want it up there. Which is fine but you can't single out certain message boards based on the person running them. I am a member of both and enjoy both, there is nothing wrong with that.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Jay, so it's OK for you to personally attack Leon, but when someone attacks you then it is not OK? Then it is Leon's fault because he didn't stop it? We have all read your opinions of Leon, banner ads, and Mastro countless times. You have made your point, now it is time to move on.

My personal opinions-

Leon - great job!
Banner Ads - I like them. One click and I can access current auctions and advertisers websites.
Mastro - I have never dealt with them, and I don't plan on dealing with them based on their recent reputation.


Rick

[Archive]

Posted By: Howard Rosen

In an earlier post someone wrote that Jay is a "contrarian". I agree. My dad is the same way...he loves to debate so he throws out unpopular ideas to get things going. This may not be Jay's intention but but it is what happens nevertheless. He can also be obnoxious and I think he realizes this. This being said, I like to read Jay's posts. When he writes about cards he is informative and when he makes posts that he knows others won't like he gets a lively debate going. I think it would be a mistake to ban him and to Leon's credit he has resisted that obvious temptation.

Leon seems to do a great job as moderator but if he is taking advertising $$$ from auction houses he should avoid recommending (or appearing to recommend) one or the other publicly. A simple solution would be to send a private e-mail or to dispense the advice through a third party (another forum member).

Howard

[Archive]

Posted By: leonl

So you are saying I am childish and Hitlerish as I make about 15k a yr from this? I hope you weren't pointing your finger this way...but if you are please elaborate a little more....thanks

deleted personal remarks from "keith"...he won't be playing anymore

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

These threads are getting really annoying...

Leon- you seem to be an intellegent person, why do you feed into these comments?

Let it roll off your shoulder...

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Keith- comparing anyone to Hitler is a pretty strong statement, and absolutely uncalled for. I would not take something like that lightly. I don't know who you are but I request you apologize to Leon and retract that statement. It doesn't not belong on this board or anywhere.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Keith, I'm not sure which is more offensive: your Hitler reference or your inability to spell or use proper grammar. I'm going to vote for a tie.

[Archive]

Posted By: leonl

I really don't care to elaborate anymore as we have had this debate several times but let me say a few more things.....

1. Mark T- you are right and I edited out links....though at this point it would probably be better to ban Jay, go with the overwhelming majority of the opinion of the board (read this thread), and be done with him. You would if you were me and he attacked you the way he has attacked me.

2. As far as being in advertisers threads....Mostly it's when one (Mastro) gets unfounded attacks and I ask for more proof. There hasn't ever been any, though I understand there could be investigations going on. At any rate I don't think I need to sit idly by why people get convicted without a trial. Just my opinion and as most intelligent people say "take it with a grain of salt".

3. Jay- personal attacks aren't allowed. Why do you keep attacking me personally? You should even say that YOU know you should be banned for what you have done. You are very hypocritical though. All you see is someone making a buck and then you rallying around the "oh woe is me, I am poor, see how happy I am, and how miserable I can make life on this board for Leon"....You are truly pathetic. You add very little to this board and if I do decide to ban you I will sleep better at night knowing I have rid the board of an infection. You are truly bad for this board, imo. A pathetic individual for all to see...


I am sure I will come back and add a bit to this but those are some thoughts for now....stay tuned...

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Jay does (or did....and still COULD) make valuable posts but the VAST majority of all the posts he's made since the ads went up (and even immediately before) were and are negative attacks on Leon and the whole concept and execution of the ads. The ads happened and they aren't going away. The personal crusade is mildly admirable, but I've always heard the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. The results are the same. Leon's still here and so are the ads.

This stuff goes in cycles and I'm sure you could chart it similarly to charting a stock. We get 2-3 months of peaceful, beneficial discussion, then the Mastro thread or the Banner Ads thread or whatever, and all Hell breaks out for a couple days. People who don't normally post--positive or negative--pop out of the woodwork, and then after it dies down, then shrink back to lurk.

And if you're worried about personal attacks, get out the mirror.....a lot are coming from your way........

[Archive]

Posted By: PAS

The Hitler reference is truly disgraceful. It's bad enough to read Jay's obsessive blather about Leon and banner ads, but that is above and beyond.

[Archive]

Posted By: leonl

No need for this to go on. If you don't like the way this board is run then leave. If you don't come here to talk about vintage baseball cards then leave....everyone on the board has a right to come here to get away from stress....Not have more of it. If Jay says anything else whatsoever about the ads he will be banned. I might ban him just out of general principle. If you don't like it ...oh well....No one should have to put up with a nuisance like that....no one.