did the t206 strip sell?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

David, I have seen the letter sent to Neal Ball, but I have never seen any others. What are the other letters that have been found regarding participation in the T206 set?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Maybe I just saw the Neal Ball twice.

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Posted By: scgaynor

I didn't read the entire thread above but did want to mention a couple of things.

I have not seen the piece in person, but Josh tells me that it is one continuous strip and not several cards pieced together.

I don't know what the reserve was, or how close it got to the reserve, but even though Verkman bought the piece for $80,000, it has traded hands privately for more at least twice in the last couple of years. I think that this card suffers from the fact that it is unique. If there were several around, it would proabably sell for more money.

The reason that the auction had "reserve $50,000" is because "reserve" is the defaut phrase in the Lelands internal system. When entering an item into Lelands system, it is sort of like putting an item on ebay. There is a template with areas like "Title", "Description" and "Reserve". When the item goes live, the system uses those defaut terms. It was obviously not meant to deceive as there was full disclosure in the description about the consignors hidden reserve.


Let me know about any other questions and I will see if I can get them answered.

Scott

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Posted By: joe brennan

Maybe the Sweet 350 back Plank was printed in the 50's.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: JimB

Ted said,
"My feeling is that the 150-only cards are very unique in the T206 issue. In all likelihood, these 12 (or so) cards
were the very 1st cards printed when T206 production was started up in 1909.
Therefore, Mr. Wagner would have been on a strip (or panel) adjoined with some of these other 11 cards that
I have displayed here (that is if this 5-card strip was an actual production, or even prototype piece)."


Ted,
I don't think there is any compelling evidence to support your feeling. It is just as likely that those were simply the 12 that were discontinued in the second run (350 series) for some currently unknown reason, such as potentially needing to drop 12 due to space limitations on the sheets of the 350 series.


Ted said,
"And Jim, regarding Plank....if you recall, some months ago I theorized that the discontinuance of the T206 Plank card
was possibly the result of the American Caramel Company's "exclusive right" to portray Eddie Plank; and, most of
Connie Mack's Phila. A's players (ca. 1908-09)."

I don't want to debate the appearance of the Plank in the 350 series again. It is really peripheral to the discussion at hand anyway.

"In the 1st Series of T206's, Plank and Wagner are only found with Piedmont 150 or Sweet Cap 150 Fac. 25 backs,
and that's proof enough for me that they were both printed on the same sheets. "

No argument here. I am not convinced, but I see no compelling reason to presume otherwise. I would even say it is likely the case given the similar quanties of each, etc.




Interesting discussion.
JimB


Edited to spell peripheral correctly per Barry's correction. Thanks Barry. Spelling has never been my thing.

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Posted By: barrysloate

"Peripheral", professor!

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Just like I have argued for years about the Piedmont 150 Wagners being printed at a later date. Also, Mr. Bill Heitman even came on this website and told about Goudey and Bowman printers printing cards like the Plank and Wagner with "different" backs. OR, backs they were NOT found with! I also remember seeing a 1933 Goudey - the same number as Lajoie, with another player on the front in a Mastro auction a few years ago (I will have to look for that catalog when I get time). Anyway, I feel that was printed later on as well - probably by one of the Goudey or Bowman guys to "fill the Lajoie hole" in their 1933 Goudey set.

Again, I know people have doubted what I have said about the Piedmont Wagners NOT being period for years. However, I will state this with confidence - NOBODY ON THIS BOARD HAS HANDLED MORE RAW T206'S AND DONE MORE RESEARCH ON THE SET THAN MR. HEITMAN - NOBODY! If you still want more proof, just get an enlarged scan of the PSA 8 Wagner and compare it to some nice 1's or 2's of Wagner with a Sweet Caporal Fact. 25 back - compare the fronts. THEY ARE DIFFERENT - I HAVE DONE THIS - I KNOW (I even remember speaking with Brian Weisner about the differences of the fronts a few years back)!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scott -when do you think the Piedmont Wagners were made, and what do you base it on?

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I base it on the fact that I ran across some around a dozen or so years ago - looked VERY REAL, but the person who had them was honest and had had the cards since the 1950's and told me they were reprints!

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Bill Heitman stated the SAME THING on here several weeks ago. Needless to say, Bill has handled more raw T206's than you and I put together and has been around the Hobby long enough to know of these reprints that look real with different backs!

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

Am I imagining things (or confusing them) ....but wasn't there some other stip or something that included an Eddie Collins T206 that was never really issued where he is shown batting?

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Story goes that Rob Lifson bought it from the find. Bill Mastro realized it was a card that was never issued and got it from Lifson cheap. Then, I believe Lifson finally obtained it back and the rest is history. Maybe Mr. Lifson could chime in with the facts on this one?

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

simply e-mail me at tycobb@adelphia.net or joejackson1919@comcast.net.
Edited to add the scans are too large to post here - sorry!

Cut the scan down in order to fit it on here. Mastro even states in the description that this one came from a Goudey employee - probably making a joke card to fill in for the missing #106 (which would later be printed in 1934 as Lajoie). Notice there is no "Bleed Through" on the back like a lot of REAL 33 Goudeys have. Also, Mastro goes on to state this is probably some "Proof". It seems they call a lot of cards "Proofs" that don't look like they should - a PRIME example is how Mastro referred to the T206 Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back that is graded "Authentic" as a proof, and it is definitely handcut and looks VERY DIFFERENT from a REAL T206 Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back! As well as all the Piedmont Wagners appearing handcut - Mastro's explanation - they were cut from a sheet by one of the printers!

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Posted By: T206Collector

"It is just as likely that those were simply the 12 that were discontinued in the second run (350 series) for some currently unknown reason, such as potentially needing to drop 12 due to space limitations on the sheets of the 350 series."

...or Mr. Powers' death on Opening Day 1909.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Today they'd probably cut up a funeral program and include it in a numbered edition card.

I hate shiney crap...

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

How are the fronts of the Piedmont Wagners different than the fronts on Sweet Caporal Wagners? Also, do you have any opinion whether the Piedmont Wagners were made from period plates or plates made at a later date?

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Posted By: T206Collector

"That would be a good explanation for one of them"

Actually, I think since one of them has a very simple explanation for why it was discontinued after 1909, there probably are other simple explanations for why the others were discontinued -- none of which point to these cards being printed first, or differently, from 150/350 subjects cards.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

wagner- we know why
plank- we know (sort of)
powers- we know
donlin- sat out 1910 to act?
and then all of the Cubs players: didn't the CUBS change their uniforms?

Ted, Scot, Brian?

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

PLANK....we don't really know....I offered a theory in a Thread I posted several months ago;
and, other than Frank Wakefield....it wasn't received too well by the others. Despite the fact
that I did some in-depth research at the Philadelphia library to add credence to my theory.

POWERS....Yes, he died, so they stopped printing him. But, not before they also printed him with
a tough Sweet Cap 150 Fac. 649.

DONLIN....his new bride got him interested in acting so he dropped out of BB to go into vaudville.

CUBS players....yes. the uniforms were changed to Chicago and these guys and other Cubbies were
not printed as "350's". Although, some Cubs players exist with Piedmont & Sweet Cap 150/350 cards,
they are 150-ONLY with the Sovereign brand (if you are interested....I'll provide a list of them).

TED Z

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Posted By: MVSNYC

<<<"POWERS....Yes, he died, so they stopped printing him. But, not before they also printed him with
a tough Sweet Cap 150 Fac. 649.">>>


Ted- i just acquired a PSA 6 Powers, i think it might actually have the SC 649 overprint back...i'll check and let you know...

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

On that one - I simply stated my opinion - I have no evidence to support the card I referred to as not being real. Again, I was simply going by the card looking different from the others - not having the glossy front as the others do mainly.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

ted- my psa 6 powers IS a factory 649 overprint back!

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I'm siding with Ted on this one. Looks mighty suspicious and odd. The cardboard backing only adds to the potential problem.

It would take about 10 minutes with simple loupe and a halogen to know for sure. There are specific things to look for when examining potentially pasted cards. I'm always leery of anything that's a one-of-kind & hand cut.

I'd also like to see just one hand-cut Pirate back T215...that should take less than 5 minutes to identify one way or the other.

Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Kling didn't play with the Cubs in 1909. He was a holdout. After the 1908 season, that winter, he won the world pocket billiard championship. He did not retain his title at the end of the year, and rejoined the Cubs for 1910.

So I can see how Kling was initially put in the cards because of the Cubs and what all happened in 1908... then when he's not playing as 1909 winds along they pull his card, an don't ever give him a second card (most Cubs stars have multiple cards, M Brown 3, Chance 3, Evers 3, Overall 3, Pfeister 2, Reulbach 2, Schulte 2, Sheckard 2, Steinfeldt 2, and Tinker 4). Yet it has always seemed to me that his card is seen a bit less often than other Cubs. That might be because some folks just want one each of the main Cubs, so the demand for Evers is spread out among his various cards, but for Kling the demand all focuses on his one card. Or it could be because American Litho pulled his card a bit early in the printing process... or both.