misprinted caramel cards

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

Kevin, I applaud you on your card doctoring experiments. And, it appers the 3 finger Brown card has undergone the same treatmant as the Wills Footy card. But, is it true that you are this guy...?? if so I'm not gonna post bad hair pics of myself from 1982

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Posted By: Brian

Kevin Saucier is listed as 6'1"

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Posted By: Kevin

"Kevin, I applaud you on your card doctoring experiments."


Many thanks!

I might add, at this point cards such as these are no longer experiments but somewhat perfected alterations used to train and teach. It is by all means only the tip of the iceberg in advanced doctoring techniques.

No insult to anyone but many collectors know very little about identifying alterations. Perhaps we have become too complacent on the word of 3rd party authentication companies. Although they do a great job of catching most, they have IMHO, fallen behind the times. Subjects such as trimming and recoloring have become old school.

Does anyone know if any of the various grading companies employ (in one way or another) a person who tests the limits and discovers new methods to pass on? How can they identify something if they haven’t done and/or studied it themselves? Again, only an opinion but if a card can be “put through the ringer” and still not get caught, something is wrong.

Sadly, I am not the ball player. He is a bit taller than me (; and, from what I hear, lives in Florida…I’m in SoCal.

Kevin

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Posted By: Tim Riordan

I've been reading this thread and am fascinated by what Kevin is doing.

I have to ask, is this being done with selective dye bleaches?

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Posted By: leon

My heartfelt thanks for bringing this subject out into the light. I truly believe this is one of the best things about this board and you are to be commended. I know I don't know as much about altering as I should but it's sort of hard to find information about (for obvious reasons). Thanks again.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the best graders are trying to learn all these techniques, but it's a challenge for them to keep up, because the bad guys are learning new techniques too. It's a game of cat and mouse.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A key for collectors is provenance. If a collector is wishing to purchase a unique card, in Mint grade or variation, he can ask the seller to show where the card came from. There's a difference between the seller showing the picture and description of the same card in a 1993 Lew Lipset auction, and not being able to show that it even existed two weeks ago.

A collector can always say, "Prove to me where it came from." If the collector claims he bought it raw from Rob Lifson three years ago, I suspect Rob would be able to verify the sale said card to said seller if the sale existed. If the collector says he pulled a Mint 10 Mickey Mantle from a 1952 Topps wax pack he bought from Lifson two years ago, he should have no trouble proving he bought a 1952 Topps wax pack from Lifson.

It's been often said by card collectors, "Why would anyone pay more for a card because it belonged to Barry Halper?" Well, now you know. It's nice to be able to look at the Sotheby's catalog and know your card hasn't been changed since 1999, and it came directly from the collection of a well known collector ... Compare to a 2007 forger who can offer no proof the card existed last Tuesday.

I'm curious if buyers of expensive PSA 10 cards ask the seller to show where the card came from. Even if the seller bought the card already graded from an auction, this should easily proven. Offer a game used Robin Yount jersey to a jersey collector and he'll ask you where the jersey came from-- hoping you'll offer a letter from Yount or the team, or at least a receipt you purchased it from a reputable jersey dealer.

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Posted By: Kevin

"My heartfelt thanks for bringing this subject out into the light."

You're welcome.

....more to follow

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Posted By: JimB

I appreciate the honesty of coming forward but find this very disturbing. In the wrong hands, this knowledge could be disasterous. If Kevin knows for a "fact" that my Brown was doctored, then either he did it himself and unleashed a fraud on the hobby, or can explain here how he knows with such certainty.
JimB

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Posted By: Damian Anderson

with everyone on civil terms. Intriguing work, Kevin. I hope you stick around as I think we need more of your expertise.

Damian

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Posted By: Kevin

"In the wrong hands, this knowledge could be disasterous. If Kevin knows for a "fact" that my Brown was doctored, then either he did it himself and unleashed a fraud on the hobby, or can explain here how he knows with such certainty."

I believe the term used was highly probable. It's not for certain, I just pointed out it could be done and gave supporting evidence as you requested.

If I was unleashing fraud (knew someone to say it...thank you), I wouldn't post about it and am quite sure no one would ever know. Enjoy your card as it is, a mystery to all!

I've been told by a leading hobby professional, that in the wrong hands what I know could change the hobby as we know it. This is why there are things I will not show...and refuse to explain the "how-to's." I don't want to be at a show when a father points and says to his kid, "see that guy, he ruined it all."

As King pointed out, no image shown has been digitally made.

Just so your card is not singled out I'll leave you with this 1928 R315 Riggs Stephenson ghost print. Is it authentic or doctored?




Enjoy!

Kevin

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Posted By: Anthony

After seeing (in person) some of the work that Kevin has been doing I would never, ever buy something like Nodgrass or Shappe, or pay anything extra for a blank backed card.
He is certainly very knowledable about card alterations and how to detect them, and has been more than generous in sharing that knowledge. While I know some of the grading companies have taken him up on his offers of sharing his knowledge and experience with them, some have arrogantly stated they had nothing to learn. Sadly, this has proven to not be the case.
Based on what I've seen, heard, and been shown (both slabbed by all 3 companies and raw) I would highly recommend anyone with an interest in unaltered cards pay heed to whatever Kevin is willing to share. Among other things he's made me realize that lower grade cards (what would start out being 1's-3's) have as much or more to gain from alteration than some of the higher graded examples, although the payout for those higher ones is much greater.

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Posted By: Kevin

Also posted on another thread.

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Posted By: Kevin

The 1931 W517 Lefty Grove Ghost card:

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Posted By: barrysloate

Kevin- I have to say your argument becomes more convincing with each picture you provide. This is one more thing that collectors need to be concerned about.

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Posted By: Steve f

Just a thought...

I lived on Jax Bch, Fla for a few years. My 1971 red Honda 600 was noticably more faded than a neighbors' blue 600. Both the same year, both out in the blazing sun.

I don't collect these freaks myself. Do these oddities/doctored cards lack reds and other colors with red derivatives fade as do cars exposed to intense UV light?

BTW, That little sedan was a real chick magnet, but dangerously slow (2 cyl. 600cc), especially when on outings with larger girls 8)

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Posted By: Kevin

Do these oddities/doctored cards lack reds and other colors with red derivatives fade as do cars exposed to intense UV light?


There is really no comparing modern paint vs. 100 year old ink. Each color of ink has a different reaction in various stages of whatever process is being used. Intense UV light can be a factor.

From my experience ink has been through 4 or 5 changes (not counting photo or high gloss) since cards were printed; pre-war, post 1930's, all regular issues post 1948, 1974 - present.

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Posted By: Marty

I contacted Jim after I saw him listing the E93 M. Brown card on BST. I owned this card for several years. I told Jim that I would post my story if he wanted, so here it is. I have no records that I have ever sold amything mail order to Jim. I do not know if I have had any dealings with him at a show. I just became aware of this card being offered for sale and of this thread discussing it. I first asked Jim if he would like a history of this card. There are some people that are not interested in the past, but this was not the case. When he said that he would, this is what I sent him.

I started doing local Phoenix shows in 1989 with my son. We did new stuff like everyone else. That has changed. I bought this card probably 1995 give or take. It was a walk up to my table. We discussed it as a "sun bleached" card because of the fading. I probably paid $15-25 for the card. I put it in a box like so much of the stuff that I buy.

Three or four years ago I came across the card again. I had seen
discussions of "ghost" cards on the 54 board. I was at Lew Lipset's looking at his cards to be auctioned. I told him about the card, and he said that he would like to see it or sell it. I posted a scan of the card on the 54 board asking if anyone could help me out on why the card looked like it does. I stated that there was no odor of bleach or anything else on the card. With a 10X loupe, I could see crystals or glaze like on the surface. I stated this also. I have searched the posts on the board and they do not go back far enough. I said that I was taking the card to a Fort Washington show.

I had it in my case for the weekend. I pointed it out to some people who did not help me. I showed the card to Terry Knause. His guess was a "proof" card. I showed the card to Mike Baker, GAI. He said that they would not put a number grade on the card but would authenticate it. He would have to do some investigation, which included Terry. GAI had the card for 3 or 4 weeks, big surprise, before they sent it back to me in the holder that it is currently in. I gave the card to Lew to sell. I believe that it sold for about $650, or that was my 90%. I have my records somewhere. I thought that it would go higher being labeled as an "error" card.

I recently have been told that there is a chemical called sodium hypochlorite or NaClO that is used in altering that may leave a crystal residue. When I bought the card, the price that I paid was for a faded sun bleached card, not for a "special" error or proof. If the person that I bought the card from was trying to pass it off as rare, he was unsuccessful. If he bought it as a special card, he did not represent it as such and probably lost money. It excited me so much that I left it in a box for several years. If I would have been offered the card as a "special" card at a special card price, I would have passed because I would not have had enough knowledge about the card to pay much more. I still do not
have enough knowledge to say if it has been altered or not. I showed it to the "experts" and it was put in the holder. Lew does not own a 10X loupe that I know of so he did not look at it with more than a lower power glass.

If it was an experiment or a shot at fraud, who ever did it did not profit from it. I made the most money on the card. The crystals always concerned me, but I did not keep it a secret. When it was put in a holder, I was satisfied, but I liked the idea of proof card more than error card. I thought that if the card was altered, more colors would be gone.

This will take the card back about 12 years in time for you. If I can answer anything else for you please let me know. Would I do something like this again? Under the same conditions, absolutly. I bought the card as flawed. Years later, I found the posibility of it being special and did some research. The experts passed judgement and I went with it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Even though the original seller didn't profit by it, the crystals on the surface would concern me. Sometimes people experiment with cards just for the fun of it, or to see how far they can go. I guess to some degree it will remain a mystery.

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Posted By: peter ullman

to clarify something...sodium hypochlorite is BLEACH...and is used in disinfecting root canals by dentists each and every day...as well as card doctors!

pete ullman in mn

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Posted By: Rich Klein

1989 Upper Deck was legendary for what you could create from the cards with just an eraser. I wonder exactly what Kevin could do with that product

Rich

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Cool thread and this is only one I have to contribute..

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<"1989 Upper Deck was legendary for what you could create from the cards with just an eraser. I wonder exactly what Kevin could do with that product">


Just about anything you can imagine ? Is there something you would like see or have an error card you would like validated (see if it can be created)?

With the correct formula one can get very creative with UD cards. No erasers involved as they often lift fibers.

I know this is a vintage forum but I though it deserved a comment.

That Ames card is just awesome. I can never get enough of those errors.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: E, Daniel

the card that turned me into a vintage sports card collector......

The first 5 cards I bought here in the States 7 years ago were 3 x 86' Topps Jerry Rice cards (2 psa8's and a pro8.5) and 4 93' Pinnacle Derek Jeters (two BGS 8.5's and two BGS 9's). I had begun the late night fiesta that is ebay, and was slowly formulating what collecting sports cards meant to me and what sort of focus I would have. It was a passionate few weeks!
Then one night I came across this card - knew immediately there was something 'wrong' with it - quickly confirmed its difference to other 58's, and spent three days stalking the auction. While it was roughly seventy five bucks in outlay, more importantly it shuttled me back in time to a focus I hadn't yet considered, and gave me the confidence to enter the shark filled collecting waters and try win my share.







Daniel

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Posted By: Brad

Bill Mckechnie~(Ghost Print) Sorry for the blurry scan!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Daniel- is your 58 Aaron really as blue as it shows up on your scan? That is amazing, and the only one I ever saw that wasn't green.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Perhaps a touch deeper cyan/blue even, but nearly exactly that color. It completely missed the yellow ink I believe - can't see any under loupe around the indian head....

Interestingly enough, not long after buying it I attended a Chicago card show - can't remember exactly which amongst the sportsfest/national/etc., but it was out at rosemount, and that weekend they were shooting a live "sportscard roadshow" type television piece. Many of the biggest names were there, and people brought stuff up to first have it deemed worthy or not of the show, and then have it appraised/inspected. Well, I had the card with me so got in line and whoa, they wanted to use it on the show.

Well, 2 hours later I was now only one person back from going up in front of camera and they took the card up to the mavens for a looksee and discussion. I watched them all pass it around, stare intently at it, and then shake their head and eyes blankly......

They brought the card back to me and apologized, saying they couldn't use the card on the show because no-one had ever seen this missing ink variation before, therefore couldn't opine a value or any interesting background to it.

Disappointed obviously, I took it round to Standard Catalog, Beckett, SGC, heck anyone I could think of, all admired it and passed it to friends, said how neat an item it was but couldn't really tell me anything. SGC wouldn't slab it as a 'missing ink' variation at that time, in fact no-one would.

So it is my cornerstone, my collecting building brick, and I love it regardless that it has not brought me fame or fortune or sits rather forgettably in any SGC50 slab without special notation.




Daniel

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

Kevin,

I would say that friends and enemies are always won/loss with what ever side you decided to be on. Your showing your handy work only proves that "Knowledge" is once again "Power". My questions to you are as follows: "Who side are you on now?" In the future, Can we rely on what you know and will you aid said collectors of "Freaks, Errors & Proofs"?

I was very interested in Jim's Card, But I had reservations about buying it because the "C" was missing from his chest area!(?) It didn't make sense to me that it wouldn't be there! I follow (as much as possible) Ghosts, Freaks, Printing errors, etc... & I'm aware of some of the techniques involved. I thought Bleaching & High UV rays were cominly known about on this board???

Some chemicals will remove the lighter colors and leave the Black & Red faded. No one would contest the(B&R)colors being faded, they only see what is missing, Not what is there. This is actually one of the keys to knowing what is or isn't real! Am I right?

As for your 1928, I can't answer your question because I've never seen a real one... My guess is that it's Altered though...

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: barrysloate

Daniel- that is a funny story. I guess people are afraid of things they never saw before.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<"My questions to you are as follows: "Who side are you on now?" In the future, Can we rely on what you know and will you aid said collectors of "Freaks, Errors & Proofs"?">


Now? I've never been on the dark side. If I did I certainly would never post, let alone show any results. Plus, I could make a ton of money just from a few cards.

Although I am no expert I assist when I can. I've been helping collectors identify altered cards for years. As mentioned, it's one of the few things I can offer the hobby and do so as long as "said collector" is somewhat courteous. The one thing I will not do is give a hint to any "how-to's" which tends to make many upset.

I have no loyalty to any company, authenticator or auction house, so I have nothing to gain or lose. I Just give an opinion based on objective findings. Unfortunately, I’m not always the most popular guy...especially if it's something the collector doesn’t want or chooses not to hear.

Different formulas, mixtures and/or techniques have various effects on cards. Depends on the year, stock and ink. Each is different.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Denny

Bravo Zulu (Well Done!) Kevin,

I see that you have been very honest in your posts. I do understand everything that you've convey'd. I also heartfully appreciate it, "Thank You". I do apologize if I convey'd that you do this for money. It was not what I meant at all! I was just hopful that you might chime in with your opinion if ask'd?

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh