O/T, Slightly, Should Hodges Go In HoF Ahead of Santo

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Posted By: J McKenna

I've been a long time lurker, but until now haven't added to any discussions. I've enjoyed the "vintage" myopia of many contributors. Somehow, if you played before the advent of night baseball or color TV, you are automatically better than any "modern" player. The argument that Frank Baker is one of the ten greatest 3rd basemen of all time is a classic. Ok, he did hit over .300 six times, never coming close to winning a batting title. He did lead the AL in homers 4 straight years, hitting a combined 41 homers in that span. He finished with a fantastic career total of 96 dingers. Now I know you all will begin with your dead ball era smack. It's always interesting to hear the congregation rise up to defend a ball player no one ever saw play. We are currently in an era where 3rd basemen rule. Look at this list: Chipper Jones, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright, Scott Rolen, Aramis Ramirez, and AROD, with Garrett Atkins and Ryan Zimmerman waiting in the wings. A case could be made that AROD and Chipper Jones are already in the top 10. Miguel Cabrera and David Wright have made nice starts to their careers. Frank Baker couldn't beat out a single guy on that list.

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Posted By: George Dreher

His career batting average adjusted to the league average (.307) is surpassed in history only by Wade Boggs and George Brett. No one playing today should even be mentioned in the same breath except for AROD and Chipper Jones. Baker also has them all beat in post season batting average.

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Posted By: peter chao

George,

I'll agree that Home Run Baker was better than Ron Santo but not by much. Arod will probably be thought of as a shortstop so he's not a competitor. Chipper is a better hitter but doesn't field as well as Ron.

Peter

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

To me the Veterans Committee is there only to correct some blatant oversight. Neither man got in during his many years of regular eligibility, and neither is a compelling case -- while arguably the equal of some already inducted, they would be marginal at best, and the Hall is already overstuffed.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

"To me the Veterans Committee is there only to correct some blatant oversight ..."

You mean, an oversight like Bill Mazeroski?

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Posted By: Jason L

"His career batting average adjusted to the league average (.307)"

how does one calculate that?
thanks!
Jason L

edited to say: Awww, c'mon Chris...you know as well as I do that Maz is a National Treasure!
He gives me hope that I still have a shot at making it in. After all, I've watched more games on TV than he played in!

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Posted By: Chris Counts

I've got nothing against Bill Mazeroski ... just last week I picked up a razor sharp 1959 Topps card of him on eBay for about $5 ... Clearly, card collectors think less of him than Veterans Committee members ...

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Posted By: George Dreher

Not sure exactly how it is figured. Bill James is the one who calculated it. I'm out of my home state right now, so I don't have access to my sports library and my volume of "Total Baseball" for reference purposes.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

But his ACTUAL average was in fact .307.

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Posted By: peter chao

Chris,

Quit picking on poor Maz, I don't know, the all time best fielding 2nd baseman and a World Series hero. That sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.

Also, the Hall of Fame isn't too crowded. People have already informally decided that first ballot Hall of Famers are the upper crust and everybody else is 2nd tier.

Peter

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Peter,

I actually like Bill Mazeroski. I've always been partial to slick fielding, clutch players. But there's a great piece in Bill James' Baseball Abstract that gets to the heart of the Mazeroski HOF argument. He goes into great depth comparing Mazeroski and Willie Randolph in virtually every category, then he adjusts the numbers to account for the fact the two played in slightly different eras. I came away convinced Randolph was a significantly better player than Mazeroski. Before I read the article, I never considered Randolph HOF material. I'm not sure if I do now.

And if Randolph is better than Mazeroski, what about Lou Whitaker, who was clearly better than Randolph?

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Posted By: peter chao

Chris,

But the reason why Maz is in is because he's the best fielding second baseman of all time. And although Randolph and Whitaker may be better all around they are not better fielders than Mazeroski.

After saying that, I do think in the long run Whitaker will get in and Randolph won't.

Peter

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

And although Randolph and Whitaker may be better all around they are not better fielders than Mazeroski

I'm not clear as to how a better fielder should be in the HOF over a better player?

Frank

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Posted By: peter chao

Frank,

It's called a Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Goody Two Shoes or the Hall of the Better Player or...

Maz did two things which made him famous, his fielding and the home run in the 1960 World Series. In my mind that's enough for him to be famous and deserving of the Hall of Fame.

Peter

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Just curious Peter if you think Roger Maris should be in the Hall?

Frank

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Posted By: peter chao

Frank,

With Roger it's a close call, but I would say no. Of course, he's famous for hitting 61 homers but that was accomplished over one season.

Because of the HOF's ten-year requirement, really we should look at accomplishments over an entire career. So even though Don Larsen throws a perfect game in the World Series he wouldn't be a Hall of Famer.

Peter

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Maz is in is because he's the best fielding second baseman of all time

I think Ryne Sandberg fans would question that. Maz was a good fielder, but the best ever? I looked up two second basemen Ryne Sandberg and Roberto Alomar. If you go by fielding percentge I see Sandberg at .989, Alomar at .984 and Maz at .983. Maz had 204 errors in about 5,000 chances while Ryno had 109 errors in almost 4,000 chances. Not very close there.

Frank

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Posted By: howard

Frank, much of the case for Maz as the best 2B is actually contained in what you wrote. He and Sandberg played in roughly the same number of games but Maz had a THOUSAND more chances than Rhino. He also participated in far more double plays. A six point advantage in fielding average does not make up for that.

Howard

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Posted By: peter chao

Frank,

Maris is a borderline Hall of Famer because his career is almost adequate. If he had won an additional MVP with the Cardinals, he probably would be in the Hall.

Peter

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Posted By: Chris Counts

If they put Maris in the Hall, that would really open up a can of worms. Take away his two great seasons (1960 and 1961), and he was a pretty average player, although he did have decent power. I just compared his stats with those of Leon "Daddy Wags" Wagner, whose career mirrored the Yankee outfielder, and there's not a big difference between the two. Needless to say, Honus is the only guy named Wagner worthy of Cooperstown. If they ever put Maris in the HOF, they might as well put in every one-shot wonder (or two-shot wonder, in his case). Maris wasn't even the best non-HOFer in 1961. Norm Cash gets the nod with 41 homers, a .361 average (nearly 100 points higher than Maris) and a .487 on-base-average ...

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Posted By: peter chao

Chris,

That's why Maris needed a third MVP, then he would have been among a very small group of elite Hall of Famers that have three. As a matter of fact, 3 MVPs was the record before Barry Bonds came along.

Peter

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Peter,

I would have given the 1961 MVP to Mantle. Outside of 1956-57, it was by far his best year ...

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Posted By: peter chao

Chris,

I agree with you. Also, if Mantle's legs had held up he would have broken Ruth's record. With Maris batting right after him and providing "protection," Mickey should have broken Ruth's record first.

Peter

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I agree with you. Also, if Mantle's legs had held up he would have broken Ruth's record. With Maris batting right after him and providing "protection," Mickey should have broken Ruth's record first.

Peter


Hooray, we finally agree on something!

Maris had ZERO intentional walks in 1961! No one wanted to pitch to Mickey.

Frank

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Posted By: peter chao

Frank,

Can you imagine the Mick with healthy legs batting lead-off on your all-time greats team. When Mantle was young he was the fastest going from home to first base, and of course, he was a switch-hitter. What more could you want from a lead-off hitter.

Peter

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Posted By: peter chao

Well, Ron Santo is in the hospital again, I hope that he gets well soon.

Peter