Of Demmitt and O'Hara....St Louis Variations.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

thanks guys...this clarifies a lot for me.

MS

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Posted By: John

That sort of clears it up, thanks Scot. I guess I’m a just confused or seeing things. For example Cobb Bat Off is 350 only correct? If so there have been 3 PB Cobb Bat off’s this month alone. Not to mention I have one or 2, and see PB Cobb Bat Off’s pretty routinely.

So if what your saying is accurate we should see both Demmit and O’Hara about the same correct, yet we don’t?? Why?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your example, Cobb (bat off) is actually a 350/460 Subject, and can be found with many different backs.
Including Broad Leaf 460, Lenox, Red Hindu and Uzit.

However, both this Cobb and the Red Cobb, as I have said in a prior post, are found quite often with
Polar Bear backs. More often then the Demmitt or O'Hara. And, this I attribute to the "attrition rate" of
certain cards.

What do I mean by "attrition rate".....certainly the Cobb's were keepers by most back in 1910-11.
However, Demmitt and O'Hara were no longer "on the scene" (as they were relegated to the Minors).
Hence, many collectors discarded them.

TED Z

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Posted By: John

Ted, makes sense, thats why I said Cobb 350 only? Forgot he can also be found with 350-460 makes sense I sold won last year duh? So would you say our Lindaman Piedmont 350's are harder than say Demmitt/O'Hara??? Can this be??

Also George your out there right, for a guy who has 6000+ T206's surely you could bring some pretty powerful stuff info to the table. Feel free to chime in.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I still wonder what the significance is of both Demmitt's being in the T213-2 Coupons. I think some T206 questions can be answered by a close look at related sets. Is there a good resource on the web for Coupon scans?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You would have to remind me of that Lindaman that you beat me out on about a year ago. Anyhow,
yes your Lindy (Piedmont 350) is much scarcer than either Demmitt or O'Hara. I had been search-
ing for one for two years. After, 100's of Lindy's I finally found one.

But, I'm just one guy, both Scot Reader's huge survey and Bill Brown's "super set" survey hadn't either.
Until I finally inputted mine to Bill. You want to sell it or trade yours ?

Seriously, there are other T206's front/back combinations that are just as "scarce"....and, I'd venture
to say scarcer than Demmitt or O'Hara. And, who'd ever guess that certain Piedmont's are that rare.

I'll tell you, after "completing" a 518-card Piedmont-ONLY set, I started looking for the tougher 350 backs.
And, cards of Ames, Ewing, Tom Jones, Lundgren, Schulte, etc. just can't be found with P 350 backs.
And, these cards are not normally considered that tough....but, just add the "back factor" into the mix
and you better be patient....because you just aint going to find that card that soon.

TED Z

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

I think Brian W. finally produced a Jones (St. Louis) with Piedmont 350. But Jones, Doyle (Throwing) and Lindaman are extremely difficult with any 350 back and Ames (Hands at Chest), Ewing and Schulte (Front View) may be impossible. I have monitored eBay for these subjects with any 350 back for about 3 1/2 years and none have shown up.

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brian W has the Tom Jones Piedmont 350. It is the only one I've seen.

Between you and I, we've probably seen many 100's of Ames (hands/chest) and Ewing cards; but, still
no P 350 backs on these. In my search, I not only rely on the Internet, but also fellow T206 collectors,
and of course Shows I set-up at, or attend.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SCOT

Also, this Thread has prompted my interest in the Polar Bear cards. And, I am considering that my
next project might be assembling an all-Polar Bear set. To start with, I only have approx. 26 cards;
but, they include the two Cobb's and Demmitt and O'Hara.

And, my recent study of the Polar Bear cards, indicates that there are only 249 possible cards.

I arrived at this number by comparing your survey with Bill's "super set" data, and also from certain
cards that I've been monitoring. And, I find that of the possible 319 Polar Bear candidates.... 70 of
them are "No-Prints".
Interestingly, many of the Subjects of these PB no-prints coincide with the Sovereign no-prints.

If you get a chance, you might want to double-check my calculations.

Thanks,

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

...my Cobb Bat Off (SGC 50) is a Polar Bear as well.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Ted- as you and i have discussed over the phone...it seems that most frank smith, chi & bos variations are seen with polar bear backs (obviously he can come with other brand backs, but the majority i have seen or handled, do have PB backs...what do you make of this...can we draw any information from this fact?

MS

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

MIKE

I have seen many Polar Bear backs on Smith (Chi & Bos), also.....however, I don't have an answer
for why.

Here are most of the 460 Series backs that this card is found with...including a very rare P460/42.
Missing is Sovereign (which is a "no-print").

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

...is also a PB.

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Posted By: J Hull

There was a good discussion a couple months back about the Smith (Chicago & Bos.) and Kleinow (Boston) cards, and one observation, I think, was that both cards are most common with Polar Bear backs, over all other possible brands. I believe Scot Reader had worked out a possible theory why that was, although I should re-read the thread because I could be wrong.

Jamie

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Posted By: Judson Hamlin

Ted- A couple of quick notes-

Byrne has been a real pain in my behind- Sweet Cap and Piedmont are plentiful, but I came across only one other, and that was a Tolstoi. I don't think I appreciated how tough that combo was at the time or I would have grabbed it.
Lundgren (Chi) with a 350 is a real pain also. Dave Levin has a Pied. 350 for sale now, but cheap it ain't.
The only tougher backs that I've seen with Abstein are Broadleaf, Cycle and Tolstoi.

Judson

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I remember the post by Scot and I did a search, but had no luck finding it. I'll try again later.

TED Z

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Posted By: John

“You want to sell it or trade yours ?”

Sure Ted, but seeing as its much harder to come by than Demmitt and O’Hara I cant see letting it go for say less than 10k, check or money order is fine Ted.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK guy....."dueling" Lindy's......



TED Z collection

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Recall that Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) are not "true" 460-only subjects, but are really 350/460 regular print (RP) subjects in disguise. That is, these subjects experienced the 460 portion of the 350/460 RP print run, with their counterparts Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (White Cap) having experienced the 350 portion of the 350/460 RP print run. That is why Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (White Cap) are about 1.5X scarcer than a typical 350/460 RP subject and why Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) are about 3X scarcer than a typical 350/460 RP subject. That is also why you don't see Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) with backs that are characteristic of the 460-only series, such as Sovereign 460 and Sweet Caporal 460/30.

Now, the Polar Bear back was fairly prevalent in the 350/460 RP series, accounting for some 13.8% of all backs in that series. Meanwhile, all the variants of Piedmont 460 and Sweet Caporal 460 combined for about 24.4% of all backs in that series. So, if you assume that about 90% of the Polar Bears were printed during the 460 portion of the 350/460 RP print run (say 12.2% out of the 13.8%), you would expect some 1/3 of Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) to have Polar Bear--which seems at least close to in line with reality. So my guess (and it is just a guess) is that Polar Bears were printed heavily late in the 350/460 RP print run, which accounts for the high percentage of Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) with Polar Bear.

Of course, if this theory is true, you would also expect VERY FEW Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (White Cap) examples with Polar Bear. Not sure if this is the case.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Scot- i need a drink after reading that post...

i'll re-read it later and try to digest that.

p.s. i was reading your book (for the 5th time) on the plane today...very informative.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I will try to define Scot's excellent explantion in terms of actual numbers....

My experience, in hunting down Kleinow (Bos) and Smith (Chi & Bos) cards during the course of
putting together my 4 t206 sets, is for every time I looked for a Piedmont 460, Sweet Cap 460,
or Sovereign 460 (which I never found....these two cards were not printed with Sov)....I found
on an average of 4 - 6 Polar Bear versions for any other given Tob. back.

This really frustrated me when I was putting together my Piedmont-only set. Smith was virtually the
last card I found with a P460 back. And also, frustrated me with my 2nd set, since I was trying to
put together an Ex to ExMt set. And, the typical Polar Bear Tob. staining was a hinderance to this
goal. Now one might say my experience is just anectdotal; however, surveys on these two cards will
reinforce this.

TED Z