Getting Discouraged with raw cards

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Posted By: dan mckee

Does anyone buy cards to collect the cards any more? Or is this strictly an investment. Who cares what it slabs from some idiot that doesn't know vintage cards. If you checked the number off of your want list, then you have made a good purchase. If you paid the insane graded NM price for a raw card and then you do not get the grade, then I can see your point Jeff. No one likes to throw money away. If you purchased them at a low price hoping to slab them as NM and make a killing, then I do not feel for you. When I buy a card as EX raw and it has a slight crease, I will still be happy with it because I won't pay the ridiculous slabbed prices for cards. Dan.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I almost always make it a practice to ask a seller of a raw card for a larger scan F and B. This will give you a better idea of the condition of the card. If the seller refuses, that should give you an idea that the card isnt as nice as described.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, I've never bought a card in my life with the intention of selling it. All of my sales are cards that have been upgraded. That being said, I'm not in the practice of throwing money down a rat hole. Eventually, either myself or my kids (or their kids) will sell the cards. And why should they get ripped off?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

that I could be just a collector. Given the acquisition costs, however, I feel it necessary to consider "value" beyond the value to me.

Does this mean that the "real" collectors are the folks who are, gasp, collecting modern cards, because those cards aren't ever going to be worth anything and are bought simply because they like card collecting?

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Posted By: Alan

Will we (or our kids and/or grandkids) have trouble selling our collections if all the cards (even if high grade) are raw ?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

you will be leaving money on the table so long as someone is willing to pay a premium for a slabbed card.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Agreed, as long as there are IDIOTS out there paying $4K for a T205 graded 8 or 9, then Adam is correct. It is very sad that the hobby is no longer a hobby but all people care about is what number is assigned to a card and that several of the people assigning the numbers have no clue about the issue, very sad indeed!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, I think you're mostly right. It really is sickening that a great card in PSA 8 is worth x while one in PSA 9 is worth 5x; after all, there's like virtually no discernable difference. And think of all the money that is wasted on picking up a PSA 8 common card that just happens to have a low population in the pop report. However, at least for me, I don't mind paying premiums for expensive vintage cards in high grades to ensure (for the most part, I know) that the card being bought hasn't been trimmed by some greedy nut. Nothing is worse than getting an expensive card sent by an ebay seller and looking at the edges (something you can't tell from a scan) and realizing that the card is trimmed....

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Posted By: Josh K.

I wouldnt assume that any high grade psa card isnt trimmed just b/c its been graded. As many people on this board are aware, I once owned a very nice psa 3 e95 plank that was later rejected by another grading company as being trimmed.

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Posted By: dennis

there are plenty of trimmed cards in slabs....but they are in slabs so they must not be trimmed.sometimes it depends on who sent them in.

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Posted By: cmoking

I hear alot of nonsense like "people only buy the slab" and all that, but that is not completely true. Yes, the number on the slab has something to do with it, but the card still matters.

Example: A card I recently sold. A 1933 Goudey Heinie Manush PSA 8. SMR is $1250. PSA 8 cards of 1933 Goudey have been going for higher than SMR for the most part. I sold mine for $660. Why? Because it was a "low-end" PSA 8.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5214310149&category=86843&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

If people only bought the slab, I want to know where the rest of my $600 is? Obviously a lot of people still care about the card itself - to an extent.

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Posted By: DJ

You guys are 100% correct and this is the most infuriating part of collecting. T206, Freshest Man On Earth:

A PSA7 of Arlie Lathan will sell for $200-250.
A PSA8 of Arlie Latham will sell for about $700-800.
A PSA9 of Arlie Latham will sell for $1,400-1,500.

If all you want is a nice example, raw (and untrimmed) and non-graded and you have to dig through the grading BS to get an example that you know if you crack open and resend (or send to another Grading card company), the card's value could fluctuate several hundred dollars.

Ay Caramba! Nobody is buying CD's because people are downloading their music...Nobody is watching commercials because of the Digital Video Recorders...Nobody is going to the movies because they come out on DVD a few months later...Everything has changed over the last five years, why not this beloved hobby!

DJ

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Posted By: DJ

cmoking:

When I say 'People only buy the slab', I feel that is true when people are trying to put together sets that really don't desire a slab.

Take 1980. Why would you want to purchase a complete PSA10 set of that?

People are paying $20-30 for commons that are 10's. You multiply that by 792 and you have what...$16-19,000 (not counting the stars...with stars...probably $25-27,000) for a set that books at $150-200? How much do you really have to love that set to invest that kind of money in something that will really never capture a return of any kind on that investment?

I don't think it's a slabbed purchase when dealing with PSA 1-8's (or maybe PSA 1-7's) but when you pay 6 times an '8' for a card that was graded in favor of the owner and should be an '8' but it's graded a '9', that's when prices spike up. You've all seen 9's that should be 8's and 8's that should be 9'.

DJ

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Dan (McKee) your the Man.....your repeated posts on this thread
says it all. Almost all, here is a few more comments:

1) The liberal use of the term "Evidence of Trimmed" by some of
Grading Co. turned me off long time ago. Because in many cases,
due to the variability in card sizes (1933 Goudeys and 1941 Play
Balls come to mind), some cards will never pass muster. Most graders
give no consideration to card manufaturer's tolerances.

A converse example of this was at the Philly Show several years ago.
A collector opened up a pack of cards and brought them over to PSA.
PSA rejected 8 of these cards because in their opinion they were
"over-sized". It's crazy out there in the "Grading world"; you really cannot win.


2) This "paranoia" over altered, or trimmed cards can simply be minimized
by attending the major BB card shows where most of the Grading
Services are on premise. Buying RAW cards only from well known reputable
dealers and for just $5. GAI (for example) will pre-grade the RAW card.

At the Philly Show if a customer questions a given card of mine
that he is interested, I allow him to get it pre-graded and then
when he returns to my table we complete the transaction.
And,if the customer decides not to buy the card, I refund the $5
he spent to pre-grade it.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I suspect that in many cases "evidence of trimming" means "I don't know what I'm doing, but it measures short".

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Anyone want to comment on the PSA graded HARRIS collection of T206 cards? Is it at all possible that maybe, just maybe there were one or two "modified" cards in the grouping?

Ok, PSA is not PRO, but that doesn't mean that they are immune to these mistakes, nor are the other grading services.

Not only should you be concerned with raw cards, you might also consider being concerned with graded material.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I think the old adage "a fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place" applies to people who chase $0.25 commons in 10 slabs. Let them piss away their money having the best Ron Hassey cards; keeps them out of our prewar stuff.

Edited to say:

In no way do I mean any disrespect to Ron Hassey, who may be a very fine gentleman.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scott Forrest

Your point is probably more accurate than you think.

Take my personal experience at a show 4 years ago. I submitted to PSA what I thought
was a really sharp 1949 Bowman Stan Musial that was part of my original collection.
PSA rejected this card due to "evidence of trimming".

Since I knew this card was never tampered with I tried to reason with PSA.
A heated argument ensued with a couple of people at PSA. So, I took
this same card over to SGC. And, SGC graded the card with an 88 grade.

Grading cards has become an ARBITRARY ART.