Mastro Wins???

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Posted By: tbob

I thought it was just me, Hal. Welcome to the S.S. Paranoia. (just kidding). Seriously I can't tell you how many times I seem to have won cards at my max bid, when I do win that is. It's kind of eerie and makes you think it is not always a coincidence.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

SERIOUS QUESTION:

Has ANYONE ever finished as an underbidder but then been offered the item by MASTRO later because the winning bidder did not finalize the deal on time???

This is typical of every Ebay shiller... who drives up the price with some "make believe" buyer... and then offers to sell it to the actualy bidder for their last bid (which was of course their MAX bid).

This is a sure sign of shilling...

so I hope that it has never happened with MASTRO, since that would seem suspicious.

ANYONE ever had it happen??

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

How do you know that the max bid was the same as yours? I thought when people just peck away it says you are either high bidder or you've been out bid? Maybe they stopped where you did but you had the higher bid in? I remember I ran up a lot you were on (not knowing it's you of course)on the Boston Team Cabinet from 8K to 16K and I had know way of knowing how much higher I had to go so I stopped. If I would have known one more bid would have taken it, I probally would have done it.

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Posted By: andy becker

i would never, in a "blind" (where the competion is unknown) auction, accept a "second chance" offer.

i have seen lots sell for high (very) amounts, only to magically resurface in same company's next auction.
i'm sure there is a % of bad debt incurred by these major auction houses....but i have wondered the same thing in the past (i too ride the ss paranoia).

anyway, it is a great card hal. live and learn.

i am TOO JEALOUS of whomever won the 1911 zeenuts and the high grade obaks. congratulations.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Doug Allen has graciously and promptly responded to my concerns and has offered to have the underbidder contact me to absolve my fears.

He was very polite and understanding, and not accusatory or defensive at all. Very professional.

Jim: You are correct, of course, in that ANYTHING is possible. It may be that someone had NO CLUE and just stopped bidding.

I may just be paranoid... but didn't you at least wait until the END of the auction to start pecking away at that card?

That's the only thing that bugs me about this one.

It sat at $13,000 for weeks... and then I place my Max Bid and someone comes out of left field to MATCH it a few hours later... with a week left in the auction.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

hal,

i think to calm your anxiety, the 1st person to contact would have been doug allen, not query the board as to the bid history, they can only surmise to the actual happenings like yourself. sort of like "misery loves company". why not get the facts and be done with it. your posts and queries were 1/2 a step away from accusing mastro of shill bidding, which carries a much greater loss than gain on their part, which is what you were insinuating, but you were smart enough legally not to put that in print,as a question cannot be construed as a statement, just leading.



scott

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Posted By: Brian

Andy,

I won the high grade Obaks. I am very eager to receive them. I feel fortunate to have won a single lot in this auction. I didn't mention it in my earlier post because I am generally clumsy & forgetful...

Now, its on to sweating REA

Brian

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Scott:

As you point out, I am not accusing anyone of anything.... unless the facts come out.

If 15 people respond and say that they have been offered "second chances" to buy things from Mastro, then it will be telling. As of yet, however, nobody has acknowledged this. That certainly bodes well for Mastro.

On the other hand, nobody has come forth on this board and admitted to being the "other bidder" on the Matty card.

I don't want to think that anything "rotten" happened... but I also am telling 100% the truth on how the bidding happened on this card and how weird it was to me.

All I said was that I am never going to use the "Max Bid" function again. I certainly didn't say that I wouldn't be bidding in Mastro auctions, nor did I encourage anyone else to pass on them.

I just think it is safer for one's "conscience" to stay up and bid all night rather than use the "Max Bid" feature and end up wondering "what if?"

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

I won the big Zeenut lot and Warshawlaw's favorite Ruth exhibit.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

If someone has a Max Bid entered for $50,000 for a particular card...

and someone else goes in and enters their Max Bid for $25,000...

would the sales price of the card be $25,000 to the guy who bid $50k...

or would it be the next highest bid increment ($27,500)??

On EBay, the underbidder would bid $25,000 and get a message telling him that he was NOT the high bidder... and the sales price of the card would be the EXACT amount of the underbidder's bid.

Isn't that the same for all of these auctions??

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

It would be the next increment up.

-Ryan

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Posted By: quan

on ebay if my MAX bid on an e98 old put cobb was $5500...and somebody else bid $5500 also, I would win it for that amount. However if my max bid is $7000 then it would be the next increment. I think this also applies to Mastro as I do get messages stating "your bid was placed at $2000 but you are not the high bidder since a previous bid was entered for that amount"...

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Posted By: TJ Schwartz

I've known Bill for 15 years. I've won lots in almost every auction he has had. I've NEVER been offered any second chance buys. I've NEVER felt I've been shill bid. Mastro is one of only a few auction houses I'll deal with. We all know there's shill bidding on almost every important and sometimes not, eBay lot, yet we still bid. Bill is as integrous as they come. Always treated me right.

BTW, in my next 'On Your Side' column in Tuff Stuff, I will be writing about a new ebay scam making the rounds. Ebayers are being send second chance offers on expensive lots from people that have nothing to do with the item. I bid 3500 on a card that eventually sold for 6K. Lo and behold, a few days later I received a SCO and I was the SIXTH underbidder. The seller was one that I had done numerous deals with. I called him and he had no idea it was happening. Who knows how many suckers sent $$$? HUGE SCAM! TJS

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Posted By: John

Just a thought Hal maybe someone collects cards and doesn’t visit this forum, or may not want to brag about being the under bidder on such a $$Heavy$$ lot.

I also agree the people at Mastro have always been good to me. But even if there was a chance of a shill issue going on? You said Doug would have the under bidder call you. That would make you feel better? Couldn’t they just have any person call you?

Beautiful card all the same you should be proud.I’m very jealous.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

In hindsight, I should have just contacted them directly and asked about it... although my concern was that they could just tell me anything and I wouldn't know whether anyone else had been told the same thing or not.

I am VERY GLAD to hear that nobody has received any "second chance" offers from Mastro. That speaks volumes for their shop.

It is in their "auction rules" that they are allowed to offer second chance sales to underbidders when someone fails to pay... but apparently they have realized that this is probably not a wise move publicity-wise.

------------------

I'm sorry that I went public with my concerns.

I guess I am just so used to EBay, where a Max Bid is almost ALWAYS topped at the end.

Maybe the third-party sniping services would make people feel better about my situation???

That would also require a DROP DEAD end-time to the auctions... which I would like as well.

WHY NOT have these things be like REAL AUCTIONS where every item ends at a SET TIME?

If every item ended 2 minutes apart...

they could do 30 items an hour...

so they could sell 1,440 items in a 48-hour period.

-------------------------

This would obviously require a "Max Bid" or even better, a third-party snipe service, because some items would end at 4:48 in the morning...

but the way they do it now....

EVERY ITEM ENDS AT 4:48 IN THE MORNING!!!

This has NEVER made sense to me.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

And NO... nobody at Mastro threatened me in any way to apologize or retract. They have all been very nice and explanatory. In fact, they always have been.

I guess I just have a way of guessing what certain items are worth long before an auction ends.

Maybe I can start a price guide for one-of-a-kind items?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

That's a really nice card.

But Mastro's description is still wrong. Other cards in the set prove it, as nearly all are athletes and others whose heydeys were the 1924 Olympics and/or 1924 championships. A few examples:

Yakima Canutt: Inducted into the Rodeo Hall of Fame of the Rodeo Historical Society (a support group of the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum) in 1975. 1917, 1919-1920 & 1923 World All-Around Rodeo Champion. In 1924 he started working in films, playing bits, stunting, and finally starring (albeit in incredibly cheap independent oaters such as 1927's The Iron Rider). Source: Leonard Maltin's Movie Encyclopedia, http://www.us.imdb.com/name/nm0134831/bio

Charles Jewtraw: Jewtraw was the first athlete ever to win a gold medal at the Winter Olympics. He won the 500-meter speed skating championship, the first event at the 1924 "Olympic winter carnival" in France, which was approved by the International Olympic Committee. He was the national outdoor champion in 1921 and 1923. Source: http://www.hickoksports.com/history/speedskatehof.shtml (National Speed Skating Hall Of Fame)

Edward Gourdin: A standout track athlete at his high school in Florida, Edward (Ned) Gourdin attracted national attention as a long jumper. He broke the World mark in 1921 with a jump of 25-foot-3. That same year, Gourdin won the pentathlon of the National Amateur Athletic Union. He won first place in three events: the broad jump, the javelin throw and the 200-meter dash. Following a successful collegiate career, Gourdin competed in the 1924 Olympic Games in France. He captured a silver medal in the running broad jump. Source: ivyleaguesports.com

Jack Dempsey: Listed as world chamion on the card, he was defeated by Gene Tunney in 1926 and by the early 1930s was retired in all but name. The championship, meanwhile, had passed through multiple hands. I also recognize the Dempsey image as one from a photo shoot that ended up being used on two of his 1925 Exhibit cards.

By 1932, when this series of cards is alleged to have been issued, Exhibit Supply Co was already onto a 1932 set of champions in a different format. It is not likely that they would have printed two such sets.

Finally, if you look at the Ruth card itself, he is wearing a pre-1925 uniform, which is fine except that Exhibits of Ruth had the correct (navy cap) uniform for Ruth for several years before this issue's supposed date.

The 2006 SCD big book will have a corrected description of the card, so if you plan to have it slabbed, you may want to go with the earlier date so you don't have to resubmit.

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Posted By: Julie

I watched an ex-mint T3 keeler go for $350, much to my regret, and then in his next (online) auction), it was back. The card didn't measure quite right, but Mastro guarenteed it was untrimmed. This time i won it...for $900!

I'll never understand auctions, I think my co-bidder may have been R Christoff, because he kept me up all night, bidding at widely spaced intervals, and didn't really get started bidding until initial bids were closed (I did this also--the lare start business)).

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Posted By: HW

I have a feeling that this is not over and it will be interesting to see how this ends.

Hopefully either Hal or Mastro will supply the name of the underbidder in order to put my mind at rest.

I hate to say it, but depending how this turns out, I have lost a great deal of respect for one of the parties involved.

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Posted By: Craig

I'm sure Hal and Mastro are fully aware of privacy laws.
I certainly wouldn't ( and I'm sure others feel the same) want my bids divulged to anyone else without my permission. Heck a lot of people on this board won't even fess up to what items they won. Do you think they would want anyone knowing what they bid on?
Besides if you truly believe that Mastro manufactures bids ( which I don't) it is not a great leap to suggest manufacturing a mythical underbidder to allay a winning bidder's fears.

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Posted By: JimB

I have been bidding in Mastro auctions for years. I have placed max bids that on lots that I won below my max bid. And I have been underbidder on some pretty significant lots. I have never been contacted for a second chance after the auction.
JimB

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I have no knowledge of the inner workings or details of their auction process, but have not personally seen evidence of anything wrong. I have bid for perhaps 5 years and have had my bid maxed out, but have also had it beaten and won at price below my max bid.

MastroNet does a lot of advertising, regularly appears on the national and international news (I read about the PSA8 T206 Wagner on the BBC), and has a solid reputation, so they get a lots of bidders and lots of bidding.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

If anyone on the board won lot # 1848 1910-27 Vintage Card Collection (433) and have plans to break it up, I may be interested in some or all of the really low grade 1913,and 1915 thru 1923 Zeenuts.

About 20 or so featured in this lot fall into this "worst of the worst"category with torn corners, major creases, missing chunks, punchholes, etc. These are the ones I'm interested in.


Thanks,
Adam

AJohnBaxter@aol.com

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Posted By: MioshiUmeki

Placing a max bid at that amount meant that you were very willing to buy the card at that price. If you're unhappy now, perhaps you should not have bid in the first place.

I won five lots, and four were below my max bids.

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Posted By: John Spencer

As much as I love looking lustily at the amazing stuff that Mastro features in his main auctions, I fear that I can no longer compete with the prices he fetches. I am now 0 for 24 in his last 5 or 6 auctions I bid in for the simple reason I cannot match some of the truly amazing bids that come in. I think I will be sticking in the future to the smaller auctions houses, eg. Lipset, 19th Century, Sloate etc. where winning prices realized seem to have some relationship to market trends or perhaps sanity. Also, there is usually an assortment of mid-grade material in these auctions which is normally absent in Mastro's with the exception of large mixed lots which usually don't interest me.
And, Hal, I was not surprized that Doug allen was cordial and professional when you spoke to him. He damn well should have been; you are a big time player and he doesn't want to lose you as a bidder.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

as amused as I am by the results, I not only don't expect to win, I don't even expect to bid on Mastro's stuff. I COULD pay some of the prices; I don't WANT to do it. Lately, even when I seriously watch an auction and anticipate a certain result, the actual price usually beats my estimate. By a lot. Must be slowing down in my old age

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Posted By: barrysloate

John- One of the things I noticed about this auction is that most of the larger lots that dealers look to buy and break up were complete or near complete sets, many among the finest known. As such, you are bidding against well-healed collectors who really aren't paying close attention to the price. I think Mastro gets great prices but someone looking for value is completely priced out. I spend hours figuring the maximum I can pay for a lot and it typically goes three to five increments above it. At this point I feel I am just wasting my time. Hey, it's fair and square, but a small group of very wealthy people seem to be buying up everything good. Either that will change one day, or the average collector/dealer is priced out forever. Only time will tell.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hal- on a different note, I can tell you as someone who has run many auctions that leaving your max bids a week before the end can't possibly help your chances of getting a lot at the best possible price, and often hurts it. You are just setting a target for another bidder to keep raising his bid until he reaches his limit or finally tops you. I found first hand that when bidders left very large ceiling bids early in my auctions, they did rather poorly, and in many cases remained high bidder for perhaps ten days and then lost the lot in the last hour. If a lot reaches your limit with a week to go, then that's a good time to leave your final bid and be done. But why not wait until you are ready to go to bed on the last night and then leave your max bid. I think it has more impact at that time. I was always happy to receive a max bid early in my auctions, but if a collector actually asked if that was a good strategy I would tell him to save his max for the last possible moment. That's just my opinion looking from the inside out.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

many lots from Mastronet, sometimes just slightly below my max or right at my max. I've never gotten a second chance offer either.

I think one of the things that Mastronet has done is that by marketing and promotion, they've drawn SIGNIFICANTLY more people into the market who have SIGNIFICANTLY more disposable income than many of us (or at least ME). These folks seem not to hesitate to spend that money and spend it at levels that most of us would not feel comfortable to spend it at.
Lots that would have typically gone for $5K a year ago routinely go for $8-$10K now. Unfortunately, it's just a fact.

Another phenomenon I think happens is that SO many people (myself included) bid SO early now just to get their number in on lots, that they mushroom in those first week to week and a half.

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Posted By: jay behrens

A big reason I got out of the hobby in 1991 was for those very reasons. The big auction houses started getting into the action and they could get much more for items than I ever could. I took that as my queue to get out, along with the pressure I was getting from the future ex-wife.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: andy becker

brian:
NICE PICKUP!!!! i was high bidder on that lot for a while on friday....once the bidding got going, i had step aside....
i was the under bidder on the 1911 zeenut lot, and after sleeping on it....well, had the auction continued later into saturday morning...i was ready to "pony up" another bid.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I have won a few lots from Mastro for under my max bid. I haven't won anything in a few years, but still bid (so I assume they are fair, or I would have quit bidding).

I guess the reason I haven't won anything is that I bid on a few lots looking to resell them, since my collection has been narrowed down and they usually don't have examples of cards I collect. I think what was hinted at above - maybe by Barry or John Spencer is that: the prices are probably the result of the end consumers winning the lots. The people (dealers) who usually won these and broke them up for a profit are now being outbid by people bidding high amounts to obtain the items directly.

I remember a few years back making a real nice profit on an E90-1 lot I won from Mastronet that had a Joe Jackson in it, along with around a dozen other top-tier HOF'ers. In fact, I can remember after selling all the HOF'ers, I only had $800 in a GD Jackson Rookie! Unfortunately, those days seem to be long gone. At one point, it seemed that if one were to spend $100k in a Mastronet auction they could very easily sell the lots individually and easily make at least a $25k profit. NOW, they would probably lose 25%!!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scott- you hit the nail right on the head, but I'm going to make a prediction: the cycle will run its course and somewhere down the road, these lots will be buyable again. And that's all I'm going to say about it.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Barry:

In a nutshell, that was more or less what I started out complaining about: My own stupidity in using the "Max Bid" feature so that people would have a "challenge" to meet.

That was why I said I will NEVER use it again. Ever.

If I have to go to sleep or be away from the computer... I will just lose the items.

If there is NO DEFINITE end time for an auction and therefore NO WAY to snipe with a high bid at the end...

then the Max Bid thing is just like an EBay "reserve" price that challenges people to keep pecking away.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

However, I thought the market for type cards and rare backs topped out around 3 or 4 years ago when I quit collecting. I was hoping to come back and get items cheaper than what I sold them for. That was not the case, by far.

I predict items will continue to increase (some very significantly) - especially the really rare cards. Even tough cards such as T207's, caramels, etc. will go up even though people are complaining about prices right now.

Being a collector, I don't like it, but I have come to accept it. This is a reason I have cards I am not selling right now, even though I don't collect them. Just waiting for the right time to unload them to make a little profit for other purchases.

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Posted By: Preece1

Hal,

I bid the Mathewson up to where you eventually won the card. I did not go any higher because of the upcoming REA (N167 Ewing, T210 Jackson, etc.). I would have gone one higher (to where you were), but that was going to be it for me.

Regards,

Patrick

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Thanks for easing my concerns.

You drive me up on the Matty... and then you get to save your money for the cool Ewing card that I wanted (for less than the current price).

You are clearly an expert at this.

I stink.

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Posted By: Preece1

Hal,

I am really starting to feel bad about driving up the cost of the Plow Matty on you. Why don't you just sell it to me at your cost and I will throw in an extra $10 for postage. You know what, make it $20 for postage.

What do you say?

Patrick