PSA OR SGC?????

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Posted By: MW

<< Mike, you are big on facts. >>

When you buy and sell accurately graded vintage cards, you have to be.


<< I will disagree with you that AAA and NASA grade randomly, I think that they are consistent, not correct, but consistent. >>

I don't agree with you here, Marty, and I don't think anyone else does either. Think about it. We're talking about scraps of paper with 6, 7 and sometimes 8 corners.


<< You may attack me all that you like, you will get no response. Mike,I do want to thank you for listing my web site. >>

I'm not attacking you, Marty, just pointing out that many of the PSA graded cards on your website are highly suspect. Please don't take it personally -- you weren't the one who graded them.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Marty, just curious, if after everything that has now been presented to you, are you going to mention that the fact there is a better alternative out there in the grading field, or are you going to continue to let your customers blindly buy product, knowing full well that what you sell is inferior? I know that if I was your customer and found out that you kept promoting something that was inferior, I would not be inclinded to continue to do business with you.

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

You did forget to respond to one very important question that was asked of you about what you sell.

Do you sell the slab, or the card within the slab?

Jay

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

Derek "Grady". How pollyanna-Dickensonian is that for a name? "Grady" if you're reading this... you got a Pet Cigarettes Battling Nelson coming down the pike. Don't do me wrong, bro.

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Posted By: runscott

...I will really miss Marty's "un-biased" "expert" opinions (sorry, I can't find a laughing smiley).

Marty - I certainly respect your right to go away and not respond to these posts, but I know it will be hard for you given your admission that...

<< a fun part is to see how easy it is to start a fight >>

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Posted By: Jerry O'Conner

Sorry if this is a double post. I did not see my initial post show up so I am doing it again.

I see the grading concerns with most of your examples, but I can't find the problem with the Fregosi card. I am not very familiar with the issue, so please forgive me if it is obvious.

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Posted By: MW

Jerry --

Care to introduce yourself?

Also, who is "Fregosi?" Do you mean "Williams?"

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Posted By: Jerry

As they say on some of the radio talk shows, "I am a long time listener, first time caller."

I am an occasional lurker on this board and have learned quite a bit from the different posts thanks to many of you. I do not have the budget to collect all of the items that I want, so I try to concentrate on middle grade T205s and vintage Brooklyn Dodger cards.

I must be as dumb as a stump because I still do not see what I am missing about the Fregosi card. I am not even interested in the issue, it is just bothering me that I can't figure out the problem with the card!

Jerry

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Posted By: LEON

Jerry is talking about that huge black looking card in the middle of the screen with the name of "Fregosi" on it......I, too, am not versed in that series.....are you knocking it because it has no perforations? later ya'll......and welcome aboard Jerry....

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Posted By: runscott

Personally, I never cared much about "getting a head".

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Posted By: LEON

and I am supposed to know that? I have an E100 that all you can see is Melchoir's head too....I didn't think anything was wrong with it.....oh well....guess I better stay in the PreWWII era....later

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I think this is where we can call Mike a DUNDERHEAD.

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Posted By: Jerry

I can't tell from the scan, but maybe the card is not the unperforated version.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

I have dealt with Marty personally on a few occasions, and believe him to be very personable and fair. While I understand the comments about his website, I recall that more than half of his "stuff" was ungraded, perhaps because he carries odd ball stuff that isn't always conducive to slabbing-- one of the reasons I visit his tables. I also remember speaking to him at length over three Tango Eggs Beschers that were graded, and he did not present as pro-PSA in any way that I noticed (as an SGC fan, I usually remember any PSA puffing).

I'm not sure I follow all of the criticism he's taken in this thread, although I do see some hypocrisy given a few of his PSA cards scanned and posted here. Still,
I do believe that old-label SGC cards were graded a little more generously than new; if SGC fans acknowledge this, then Marty is merely mistaken in suggesting otherwise, if they do not acknowledge it, then I agree with him.
Next, I find the Derek Grady excuse rather lame. It may be that he is the toughest/fairest/insert your compliment here grader in the land, but that does not excuse inconsistency from other graders if in fact it exists. In my view, SGC cannot overtake PSA or even sustain its current market share if the demands on Mr. Grady's time increase a whole lot. Therefore, they need to channel his expertise to others in their company. Of course, the more graders, the greater chance for inconsistency, so I suppose it's a bit of a catch-22. Still, to forego criticism of SGC because "Derek didn't grade it" doesn't impress much.

Finally, I would like to point out what may be an unnoticed problem with PSA that chaps my arse. Apparently, PSA will grade without a qualifier if specifically requested to do so. While the card presumably may "slab" one full grade or more lower, it still irks me that someone buying one of their cards sight unseen (remember, that's one of the so-called selling points of a PSA card)could be sorely disappointed if they fail to ask for centering, staining, etc.
regards...................Todd

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Posted By: runscott

I collect baseball from pre-wwI almost exclusively, and barely have a clue about anything more modern.

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Posted By: runscott

If you are going to put on a front that you are something you aren't (or in Marty's case that you aren't something that you are) then you better be ready to take some fire. He popped in, said a few things that were self-contradicting, bad-mouthed the board a little and mentioned it was fun to start fights, then picked up his toys and went home when a couple of people responded in a way he didn't like. So what did we do wrong again?

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Posted By: Hankron

I don't specalize in cards and have owned exactly three graded cards in my life (2 PSA, 1 SGC, each worth about $2). My guess is that PSA, SGC and Beckett are all legitimate graders-- each with having comparative weaknesses and strengths, or being better in one area instead of another. I think these arguments often come down to a collector's emotional attachment to her grader of choice-- only enhanced by the fact that she has invested lots of money in that company's product. I think that in many PSA collectors' minds, the weaknesses of SGC are artificially magnified and PSA's weakness are casually dismissed. And visa versa.

So, while there are many facts to the arguments (I am personally aware of certain graders grading fakes and counterfeits), I think a lot of the arguments are at least partially based in the cliques typical to any part of society, including baseball cards.

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Posted By: Hankron

And if you don't beleive that there are cliques: how come the 'PSA' board is over there, and the 'SGC' board is over here. It's just like high school all over again.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

There is a forum on SGC'c site. This is a vintage board that most members prefer SGC. Mike goes over to the PSA board and gets kicked off, what good does it do to go to the board if they kick you off because they don't like your views?

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Posted By: hanrkon

<<< Mike goes over to the PSA board and gets kicked off, what good does it do to go to the board if they kick you off because they don't like your views? >>>

Doesn't that support what I just said?

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Posted By: Anonymous

I didn't say that you did anything wrong-- please re-read my post.
I did say that he does not sell exclusively or even primarily PSA cards--his own web page shows many other items, and stated that I do not consider him, based on my first-hand dealings, to be a PSA apologist.
I do not see exactly what he said that was self-contradictory, unless you take the position that by selling PSA cards, he cannot criticize SGC without coming across as self-interested. As I understood his message, SGC has made centering mistakes/overgrades too, and with that I would agree. I say that not being a dealer, and as one who has more SGC cards than PSA.
He stated that others were free to disagree, he identified himself by full name, and provided information from which his wares could be reviewed on line. Not exactly laying in the weeds.
He stated his opinion on a fairly debatable issue, one that may never be resolved. Having stated it, he elects not to participate further--what would you have him say? Does he sell the holder instead of the card? Who cares? What's there to fight about? Time to move on.

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Posted By: MW

David,

We don't "ban" PSA supporters here. We gently coddle them while applying the tar and feathers. We've also been known to give them quite a bit of "floor" while they speak. Especially if they've got big mouths and small feet. See? There's a difference. Diplomacy.

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Posted By: Robert

How do you attach a picture on to a thread? Rob

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Posted By: runscott

and I feel no urge whatsoever to re-read it.

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Posted By: Anonymous

SGC is way less restrictive on grading T-200's!

Fatimas from SGC are two grades lower than the standards used by PSA and I have plenty for comparision.

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

SGC is way less restrictive on grading T-200's!

Fatimas from SGC are two grades lower than the standards used by PSA and I have plenty for comparision.

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Posted By: marty

I know that I said that I would not post again, but I did forget one thing. Will someone please post a scan of a card that has a grade of a 30, 40, or 50 that if centered well would have graded 88 or better.
Thank you in advance.

Do you think that this thread will reach 100? I will help one more time.
MW, do you really think that the Pafko is centered 35/65?
Now I am done, go ahead on.

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Posted By: Elliot

Just to be clear. This is NOT a SGC board. It is true that a number of posters have strong favorable opinions regarding SGC, but it is far from unanimous. Different viewpoints are always welcome here, although sometimes it appears otherwise. A number of people just have strong opinions--don't let them get you down. I think all the major grading companies have their strength and weaknesses. The best advice is to buy the card and not the holder. View the grade as a guide.

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Posted By: B c Daniels

"Can't we just all grade along"


Ted Kennedy is my designated driver.........

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Posted By: MW

Night blindness -- the inability to see after dusk or at night -- is the most common ocular manifestation of moderate to severe vitamin A deficiency.

PSA blindness -- the inability to accurately judge the condition of a card –- is the most common manifestation of someone who sells the holder and not what's inside of it.

Which category do you fall into, Marty?

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Posted By: MW

Classy move, Marty.

For those who were not logged on earlier, I had originally copied a PSA 6 1951 Bowman Ted Williams from Marty's website. For whatever reason, Marty chose to change the image to a Jim Fregosi instead. Here is the original image for #6 above:

Incidentally, Marty has this card listed for $525. At that price, I'd switch images too.

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Posted By: MW

Just so you guys are aware -- Marty tried to change images on me. The image he had posted for #6 above was originally a PSA 6 1951 Bowman Ted Williams. I have reposted the correct image farther down.

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Posted By: petecld

What are we supposed to be wondering about:

1) that a card that is that off-centered is in a PSA 6 holder.

or

2) that a card that is trimmed along the top and is in a PSA 6 holder?


Legal fine print: Just my opinion.

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Posted By: Jeff Kennedy

Hello All,

I just wanted to take some time to clear the air on this subject. If I would have known then what I know now, I would not have sat down and posted this thread in the first place. It was not intended to start a heated debate between members of the forum or anything to that matter. As I mentioned in the original thread, I am new to the hobby and was just searching for the majority vote on this topic. I was looking to pick the minds of the many experts that frequent this forum, but in doing this, I may have ruffled some feathers. I have had other members of the Forum make comments about this lame thread and how bad it is and have had them comment on the first impression that I have made with the other members. With that said, I am going to continue doing what I have been doing from the beginning and that is to buy quality cards, not quality holders. Thanks to all for your help.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Jeff, The subject was a topic that has been hashed over and will continue to be. I feel that sometimes this is the best way to gain information at times. As long as there are no personal attacks I feel there is no problem.. Every member of the board is a different person with different thoughts and opinions. I feel that no matter what your opinion there is alot of respect for the people on the board. I know that personally I tend to bid a bit higher on board members auctions and wouldn't hesitate to buy or trade from them. Sometimes you just don't know what topic will get this board rolling, just climb aboard and enjoy the ride, I know I have.

Lee

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Bill calls me "Mr. 1st Amendment", so the following comment shouldn't come as any surprise: If someone ever tells you what you can and can't post regarding vintage baseball cards, just tell them to go take a jump. I also don't see a problem with questioning the motives of certain posters - after all, this isn't an encyclopedia, it is a forum of flesh-and-blood human beings who should be communicating honestly.

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Posted By: Scott Whittenburg

I've popped quite a few cards from various companies and resubmitted to other slabbers and here's my opinion...

Asking SGC to regrade a card they know came from PSA is "death". SGC WANTS you think they grade harder, so the grade comes in low. Always pop first, then submit.

PSA won't accept it in a holder from anybody else, you have to pop it first. My guy feeling is that if they think it's an old SGC card they grade it tougher.

The vast majority of SGC cards I pop and submit to PSA come back with lower grades, even on old cards.

PSA cards in equivalent grades to SGC almost always have a price premium.

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Posted By: MW

<< The vast majority of SGC cards I pop and submit to PSA come back with lower grades, even on old cards. >>


My experience and that of my customers tells me differently. I've "popped" over a hundred vintage PSA graded cards and re-submitted them to SGC. I would say that roughly 70% of the time, they come back graded lower. For quite some time I have also heard that some dealers allegedly receive preferential treatment when submitting to PSA. That combined with the current PSA scandal where a major PSA authorized dealer was supposedly grading and slabbing his own cards and circulating thousands throughout the hobby via "grade-and-trade" as well as through other PSA Authorized dealers, makes SGC easily the best bet right now. Anyone who would argue differently at this juncture either works for PSA or has many thousands of dollars invested in PSA graded cards and fears a substantial loss in equity.


<< PSA cards in equivalent grades to SGC almost always have a price premium. >>


Just not true. Here are some recent examples of major rookie cards or "benchmark" indicators:

1955-56 Parkhurst #50 Jacques Plante Rookie Card. SGC 92 value = $2555. SMR value for a PSA 8 = $2000. The typical range for a PSA 8 would be $1500 (low-end) to $2000 (high-end).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16309&item=1987402680

1963 Topps #537 Pete Rose Rookie Card. SGC 88 value = $2500. SMR Value = $1750. Recent PSA 8 sales have been in the $1300 (low-end) to $1500 range (high-end).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16273&item=1987165848

1968 Topps #177 Nolan Ryan Rookie Card. SGC 92 value = $1600. SMR Value = $1100. The typical range for a PSA 8 would be $900 (low-end) to $1200 (high-end).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16273&item=1987178574


As can be seen by these and other examples I could provide, SGC cards -- even those from the 1950s and 1960s -- have overtaken the values for similar PSA graded cards. And with the drastic loss of confidence from the current PSA scandal, I expect this gap to widen.

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Posted By: MarkThompson

MW: “I would say that roughly 70% of the time, they come back graded lower.”

What is lower? Can you provide an example of “lower” using SGC and PSA grades?

Do you know how SGC grades translate to PSA or is this an opinion?

MW: “That combined with the current PSA scandal where a major PSA authorized dealer was supposedly grading and slabbing his own cards and circulating thousands throughout the hobby via "grade-and-trade" as well as through other PSA Authorized dealers”

The “Scandel” appears to be ONE company that has unquestionably broke the law as the FBI has indicted them. Can we\should we conclude all PSA slabbed cards and or companies are fraudulent? As the article states “The charges were based, in part, upon evidence PROVIDED TO THE FBI BY PSA.” This doesn’t make PSA’s credibility look worse, does it? Further, “No Collectors Universe personnel were involved in the fraudulent scheme. Rather, Collectors Universe, using proprietary security measures that it has developed to protect collectibles consumers from fraud and misrepresentation, helped to uncover the fraud and to assist the Federal Government in the investigation that led to the filing of charges against the dealer.” Should we just skip this paragraph entirely?

MW: “….makes SGC easily the best bet right now.”

1. “Easily” – one dealer indicted and your opinion = easily?

2. “Right now”? Can PSA survive this “scandel” or are will they lose their position as the article states as “the leading provider of value-added grading and authentication services and products to dealers and collectors of high-end collectible coins, sportscards, currency, stamps, sports and entertainment memorabilia, autographs and other collectibles.”

MW: “Anyone who would argue differently at this juncture either works for PSA or has many thousands of dollars invested in PSA graded cards and fears a substantial loss in equity.”

1. “this juncture” – conclusive evidence and support from the one dealer and a few cards?.

2. “… many thousands of dollars invested in PSA graded cards and fears a substantial loss in equity”. Don’t you have thousands of dollars in PSA graded cards listed on your web site?

MW: “Just not true. Here are some recent examples of major rookie cards or "benchmark" indicators:”

Are you answering the first couple questions above re: card grades and is this fact or your opinion?

Could it be that PSA’s SMR prices are more conservative (i.e. lower)?

I thought PSA would grade a SGC 8.8 as a 10 from the sounds of respondents in this thread? Therefore, your SMR values are incorrect and the cards would be worth well more in every example you list?

How do you know what PSA SMR values are? Are you a PSA member?

MW: “As can be seen by these and other examples I could provide, SGC cards -- even those from the 1950s and 1960s -- have overtaken the values for similar PSA graded cards. And with the drastic loss of confidence from the current PSA scandal, I expect this gap to widen.”

1. “As can be seen by these and other examples I could provide, SGC cards -- even those from the 1950s and 1960s -- have overtaken the values for similar PSA graded cards.

There is no question based on the above conclusive evidence.

2. “and with the drastic loss of confidence from the current PSA scandal…..”

“Drastic loss of confidence” – A quick search of “Pre-30’s Graded” cards on ebay shows 258 PSA cards and 61 SGC cards. Is this the drastic loss of confidence you’re talking about or are these 258 being sold by “When It Was A Game”?

Finally, can these two companies even be compared? What is the economic size difference of these two entities. If SGC does do a better job of grading, have we seen the shift in the market place or will it come now that the above referenced article (just released to the public yesterday) is out? It seems SGC’s strength is in Mr. Grady. If the market has shifted (efficient market hypothesis), there still seems to be many people selling vintage cards in PSA holders. If the market hasn’t shifted to SGC quite yet, how will Mr. Grady be able to handle the influx of business? Will his resources be taxed and grading standards suffer or will he train others to grade vintage cards and therefore create as least two if not more opinions on what a card grades at SGC? I have many SGC and PSA cards, what I don’t have is such a closed-minded view of things.

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Posted By: jay behrens

>“Drastic loss of confidence” – A quick search
> of “Pre-30’s Graded” cards on ebay shows 258 PSA
> cards and 61 SGC cards. Is this the drastic loss of > confidence you’re talking about or are these 258
> being sold by “When It Was A Game”?

I'll save MW some time on this one.

What, Instantly, all the PSA graded cards are supposed to go away and SGC outnumber them? Give me a break. You try to pass yourself off as impartial, yet make this absurd statement.

Or, could it be that we are seeing the loss of confidence and everyone is dumpong their PSA graded cards while they can? I doubt this is the case, since I am sure it will take more than a few days for this story to filter through the entire hobby.

Jay

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Posted By: MW

This proud PSA supporter above us obviously has a large financial stake in PSA graded cards. If he weren't so worried about how his investment is going south, he wouldn't be here responding to me. I'll tell you something, Mark Thompson, the cracks are in the dam and they're getting larger and there's nothing you can do about it. Coming here from the CU forum to argue with me only shows how truly desperate you've become.

Might I recommend a few thousand crossovers to SGC before you end up with virtually the same thing that exists in AAA and NASA holders? Hurry, Mark Thompson, there's still time!

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Posted By: MarkThompson

That's the whole point! You supported the silliness very well. His rush to judgement claims (with weak support) are as silly as the "quick search on ebay" I mention.

It seems whatever MW says, goes on this site. Impartial, open-minded, heck they should call this the MW hour and the MWettes.

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Posted By: Mark Thompson

How dare I come to this temple and curse. Do you know who you are quesitoning. He sells PSA cards on his web site. Silly, silly, silly.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi MW
If Psa cards are now in a class with AAA and Nasa, will you sell me the Cobb with the Uzit back for a $1000? PLEASE.... Pretty PLEASE


I'm still buying cards, not holders.

be well brian

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Posted By: MW

So, tell me, Mark Thompson is this you on eBay?

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=gemint&include=0&since=30&sort=3&rows=0

Because if it is, I'd like to compliment you on your selection. I really mean it. Lots and lots of great cards from the late 1960s and early 1971s. Is that what attracted you to this forum? Or was it another reason?

I'll tell you what -- let's address some of those possible reasons in the order that you present them:


<< What is lower? Can you provide an example of "lower" using SGC and PSA grades? >>

Yes. As the PSA scandal (not scandel) grows larger and larger, your PSA cards will sell for lower and lower prices. Soon, it won't matter whether we compare them to SGC graded cards or AAA graded cards. Wait, I'm sorry, Mark. Was I supposed to use PSA and SGC in the same sentence? Oops!


<< Do you know how SGC grades translate to PSA or is this an opinion? >>

Gee, I don't know Mark. I was one of the original PSA-Authorized dealers and I've bought and sold more SGC cards than your ten best friends combined. Maybe that doesn't count for anything. I don't know. Maybe you're the expert with all of your late 1960s and early 1971s PSA graded cards and I'm the one who looks like an unqualified idiot.


<< "Easily" – one dealer indicted and your opinion = easily? >>

One dealer, many thousands of PSA graded cards. On eBay. In major auctions. In other dealers' inventories. Maybe even in your collection. Take your pick.


<< Don't you have thousands of dollars in PSA graded cards listed on your web site? >>

Yes. And I submitted the 1887 N172 Kelly, the 1935 National Chicle Nagurski and the T206 Uzit Cobb myself. Can you say the same for all of your expensive PSA graded cards? Didn't think so.


<< Could it be that PSA's SMR prices are more conservative (i.e. lower)? >>

Yes, but not low enough. Stop hibernating and take a look at some of the prices that PSA graded cards bring on eBay. If we're talking 1950s and 1960s star cards, it is a fraction (that means less than 100%) of SMR. Uh oh!


<< I thought PSA would grade a SGC 8.8 as a 10 from the sounds of respondents in this thread? Therefore, your SMR values are incorrect and the cards would be worth well more in every example you list? >>

No offense, but this doesn't make any sense, Mark. There's no such thing as an SGC 8.8. Also, you assume that I sell my cards based on SMR values. I know that you live in a PSAcentric universe, Mark, but I don't. The bottom line is that collectors are figuring out that PSA cards are graded more leniently and, as a result, they pay less for them. It's really as simple as that. Promise!


<< How do you know what PSA SMR values are? Are you a PSA member? >>

A teeny tiny fairy named Tina told me. I'll send her your way when she's done talking.


<< A quick search of "Pre-30's Graded" cards on ebay shows 258 PSA cards and 61 SGC cards. Is this the drastic loss of confidence you're talking about or are these 258 being sold by "When It Was A Game"? >>

Look at it like this, Mark. You walk into a women's plus size clothing store and you wander over to the lingerie section. It's not going to have a great selection, is it? On a more tangible level, all you need to do is think about it. PSA has been grading since 1991. SGC has been grading for three years. You do the math and we'll check your answer later.

As for the second part of your question, I'm not sure. Do YOU know if some of these cards are from WIWAG? I sure hope they're not. But what do you say we play it safe and don't buy any?


<< If the market hasn't shifted to SGC quite yet, how will Mr. Grady be able to handle the influx of business? Will his resources be taxed and grading standards suffer or will he train others to grade vintage cards and therefore create as least two if not more opinions on what a card grades at SGC? >>

SGC has at least two other well-qualified vintage graders that I am currently aware of. Both grade at Derek's level. It's too bad we can't say the same thing about a certain other scandal-ridden grading company, isn't it, Mark?


<< I have many SGC and PSA cards, what I don't have is such a closed-minded view of things. >>

Add AAA and NASA to the mix. Will this make you even more open-minded? Just trying to follow your logic.

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Posted By: MW

No offense, Mark, but vintage collectors populate this forum. The knowledge base is pretty expansive here. I have full confidence that everyone can think for himself or herself. The CU forum I have my doubts about, but not this one.

As for more evidence of SGC prices, here you go:

http://www.bmwcards.com/Hobbynews3.htm

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Posted By: MW

Mark,

Add up the values of the three most valuable PSA graded cards on my website. Now, given the fact that I submitted all three myself, many years before the PSA scandal broke, what possible subtractions can we make?

Also, you might want to note that I sold off much of my PSA inventory years ago. Call me Promethean.

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Posted By: MW

No offense, Mark, but vintage collectors populate this forum. The knowledge base is pretty expansive here. I have full confidence that everyone can think for himself or herself. The CU forum I have my doubts about, but not this one.

As for more evidence of SGC prices, here you go:

http://www.bmwcards.com/Hobbynews3.htm


Brian, I submitted the card myself. Sorry!

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Mike
Thanks anyway. You can't blame for trying.
Be well brian

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Posted By: Mark Thompson

It was only a matter of time before you edit, for spelling my first post. The web site is not mine and the spelling is different from my e-mail (I would think you would pick that up) anyway. It has to come to derogatory comments because anybody that points out anything contrary to your your logic is an "idiot". Lower the bar and flex up on counterpoints. That goes with your rush to bring up NASA and AAA. Even you know that PSA is not even in the ballpark with them.

Another disciple of MW comes to his aid and reiterates the same NASA, AAA garbage. I'm sure there will be more.