Theft at Philly Show

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911-

1) Some commenters in this thread very clearly mentioned incidents of
showgoers being followed beyond the show site. This goes beyond mere
Theft by deception.

2) On the other hand, not one commenter (that I recall) mentioned or
advocated brandishing a weapon at a suspected thief in a show hall.
Rather obviously, lethal force isn't justified in such a situation- but again,
no one mentioned it as an option, other than you in the negative.

3) This really isn't difficult. People are searching for ways to protect their
property or person at shows or beyond them. Personal carry is just one
way.

4) Again, I am very well-schooled in this area so I'm not going to take the
bait for some contorted debate. The notion that people are willing to
discuss gun carry is a symptom of this growing problem at shows, not the
cause. My comment about "passing the problem" applies to all of us.

Done and dusted, Trent King

1) Followed, and an unoccupied vehicle broken into at a restaurant parking lot. That's not free rein to use your gun. Again, the gun would not have helped this incident.

2) As I recall, someone did bring that scenario into the 500 post thread on the front page about the in-show theft. It was a little concerning.

3) How is the presence of a concealed firearm going to deter a criminal unless it is first drawn? Read your previous post? Again, it would not have changed any of these cases. I am all in favor of carrying a gun, but it is not for these kinds of thefts.

4) You don't seem to be very well schooled or responsible whatsoever.

Done and dusted 'em

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911-

1) That was NOT the only incident mentioned in this thread. I have NOT said
that people have "free rein" to use a gun as it suits them.

2) My comments are restricted to this thread, not some 500 post thread in
the past. It's likely you made 80 of those 500 posts anyway, so I'm sure
it's a clown show. People on THIS thread are discussing yet another
high dollar card show Theft and ways to deter/address them.

3) If you really need to be told how a presence of a weapon- concealed or
not- may deter a person with criminal intent, you don't belong in this
chat. (Maybe start with a Google search for "open carry", if you can
manage it).

4) You are a dullard who can't follow basic lines of thought. Frankly, I'm
astonished you've stayed on topic this long, albeit incorrectly. The people
on this thread have posted consistent remarks except, naturally, for you.
You are the one who turned reasonable thoughts into Mad Max conditions.

Get help! Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911-

1) That was NOT the only incident mentioned in this thread. I have NOT said
that people have "free rein" to use a gun as it suits them.

2) My comments are restricted to this thread, not some 500 post thread in
the past. It's likely you made 80 of those 500 posts anyway, so I'm sure
it's a clown show. People on THIS thread are discussing yet another
high dollar card show Theft and ways to deter/address them.

3) If you really need to be told how a presence of a weapon- concealed or
not- may deter a person with criminal intent, you don't belong in this
chat. (Maybe start with a Google search for "open carry", if you can
manage it).

4) You are a dullard who can't follow basic lines of thought. Frankly, I'm
astonished you've stayed on topic this long, albeit incorrectly. The people
on this thread have posted consistent remarks except, naturally, for you.
You are the one who turned reasonable thoughts into Mad Max conditions.

Get help! Trent King

1) Then you shouldn't be objecting and throwing a fit because I said a gun is not an appropriate solution for these kinds of thefts. If you don't believe a gun is the appropriate solution for the situation that is the topic, why are you mad? Try to follow the actual statements instead of just that I live rent free in your head and you're angry.

2) My comments, which you are replying to on schedule for your monthly breakdown, are explicitly about the spate of 2024 card show theft threads and said directly this multiple times. If you don't want to talk about that, then don't reply to talk about it. Kind of obvious, no? EDIT: The dataset shows I made 11 of the 517.

3) A concealed weapon cannot deter anyone, as they don't know you have it. Let's try to think. Are we now changing to one should open carry a gun to card shows so everybody knows not to fuck with you? Should I really be bringing my M4 to card shows to protect my baseball cards?

4) Yes, I am a stupid dullard. But at least I'm not a violent nutter who throws a fit when another poster says you shouldn't just shoot any thief or lynch politicians you don't like. Let's see the details of your certain to be third meltdown when I next post something against unnecessary violence.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh I see we're now on to open carry. Even assuming it were legal in the location, that's a great atmosphere for a card show.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh I see we're now on to open carry. Even assuming it were legal in the location, that's a great atmosphere for a card show.

I mean, maybe we should consider it. There could be additional benefits. If you bring your rifle with you, other people will probably get out of your way, allowing you to be the only person going through a dealers cards to pick out the best ones early. You can also use the pouches on your kit to store the cards you buy - that magazine pouch can probably hold a few PSA slabs you've bought too. And if the power goes out, you can just flip down your goggles mounted on your ballistic helmet and be able to see to continue examining potential purchases for signs of alteration.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I mean, maybe we should consider it. There could be additional benefits. If you bring your rifle with you, other people will probably get out of your way, allowing you to be the only person going through a dealers cards to pick out the best ones early. You can also use the pouches on your kit to store the cards you buy - that magazine pouch can probably hold a few PSA slabs you've bought too. And if the power goes out, you can just flip down your goggles mounted on your ballistic helmet and be able to see to continue examining potential purchases for signs of alteration.

An armed citizenry is not your vision of a utopian society?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

An armed citizenry is not your vision of a utopian society?

I'm as pro-gun rights as it gets - but they are for sporting purposes, sustenance, protection in extreme danger, and a preserver of liberty, not really anything else I can think of. They are not to tote around to tell people not to mess with you, or to brandish upon or shoot a guy who did something bad but is not a life threatening danger to others.

Some basic common sense should tell one that they don't need to display a gun at a card show and it will accomplish nothing but making people panic. Legality of different jurisdictions aside, when I am in a rural small town in a free state, I have often open carried because of the context - nobody cares at all or panics or is worried and no stir is caused because it's outside my shirt instead of under it. At a card show, obviously you are going to cause a scene to nobodies benefit. Common sense, ya know?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

a valid form of ID (not your Avengers membership card).

Will my KISS Army card work?

Guns are not the answer. And before the gun people have kittens over my 'liberal' view, I own multiple and can shoot the wings off a mosquito with my rifle, so I am not a prohibitionist, but I am a realist. Have you met the average card show attendee? I don't think a good portion of them should be allowed to drive, and to think of them armed...yipes!

[ClementeFanOh]

Adam/Exhibitman-

Good God, not you too. PeterSpaeth and G1911 are..."special". They write to
see their words in print, or to start debate even if off the topic of the post.
Sophistry is too much of a preoccupation in certain corners of this board. I
am certain you are better than this.

Let me make this crystal clear: improving awareness and security at card
shows is not- not- simply about carrying a weapon. I've made it beyond
clear that preventative measures on the part of a) promoters b) dealers and
c) show attendees together, can make it much harder on those with bad
intent, to carry out that intent. This can and should involve enhanced
human security at large shows for sure, electronic security if
possible/practical, and steps to ensure that people entering actually have a
legitimate purpose for doing so. It should involve sellers with significant
card/cash value to enlist help at their tables, and for show attendees to do
their part by being vigilant with their own material as well. Gripes by the
"but" crowd- you know, people who say "I'd like to feel more secure at
shows but..."- are plentiful. I don't believe my suggestions would entirely
stop this problem, but they would stand a much better chance of helping
than an endless list of reservations about taking action.

In my first post on this thread, I said hyperbolists would come out of the
woodwork. It's precisely what has happened here, by precisely the folks
who I predicted would do it. The G1911/PeterSpaeth ploy of reduction to
the absurd came right out- shocking.

Last word- I agree the gun aspect has taken too much energy here. Bottom
line is individuals are free to take legal steps to protect themselves. The
wisdom of that choice is beyond this thread- it simply exists as a choice.
It isn't that hard, all parties at shows should take steps to ensure they aren't
a victim.

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is there anyone on this board more arrogant, self-righteous, and personally hostile as you? Good god, as you like to say. I haven't said anything in this thread that would remotely warrant yet another personal attack from you. Here's one back -- fuck yourself. I doubt I've told anyone that before, but there's a time and place for everything. Here's some advice for you -- stick to the merits of a discussion, don't get angry, and don't attack people. How hard is that?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Adam/Exhibitman-

Good God, not you too. PeterSpaeth and G1911 are..."special". They write to
see their words in print, or to start debate even if off the topic of the post.
Sophistry is too much of a preoccupation in certain corners of this board. I
am certain you are better than this.

Let me make this crystal clear: improving awareness and security at card
shows is not- not- simply about carrying a weapon. I've made it beyond
clear that preventative measures on the part of a) promoters b) dealers and
c) show attendees together, can make it much harder on those with bad
intent, to carry out that intent. This can and should involve enhanced
human security at large shows for sure, electronic security if
possible/practical, and steps to ensure that people entering actually have a
legitimate purpose for doing so. It should involve sellers with significant
card/cash value to enlist help at their tables, and for show attendees to do
their part by being vigilant with their own material as well. Gripes by the
"but" crowd- you know, people who say "I'd like to feel more secure at
shows but..."- are plentiful. I don't believe my suggestions would entirely
stop this problem, but they would stand a much better chance of helping
than an endless list of reservations about taking action.

In my first post on this thread, I said hyperbolists would come out of the
woodwork. It's precisely what has happened here, by precisely the folks
who I predicted would do it. The G1911/PeterSpaeth ploy of reduction to
the absurd came right out- shocking.

Last word- I agree the gun aspect has taken too much energy here. Bottom
line is individuals are free to take legal steps to protect themselves. The
wisdom of that choice is beyond this thread- it simply exists as a choice.
It isn't that hard, all parties at shows should take steps to ensure they aren't
a victim.

Trent King

How is it absurd of me to observe that bringing a gun out is not a legal or ethical solution to non-violent thefts that never posed a physical danger to anyone? Of course you can't answer anything or back your statements because your solution of open carrying guns at shows to cause panics is retarded and you can't figure out how that makes any sense. This is the second time you have had a meltdown over somebody not endorsing violence. What kind of sick fuck objects to this?

All you do is blatantly lie about transcripts, throw randomly chosen insults, and come off like a potentially violent lunatic. I hope this is merely an online tough guy persona this dipshit has.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

How is it absurd of me to observe that bringing a gun out is not a legal or ethical solution to non-violent thefts that never posed a physical danger to anyone? Of course you can't answer anything or back your statements because your solution of open carrying guns at shows to cause panics is retarded and you can't figure out how that makes any sense. This is the second time you have had a meltdown over somebody not endorsing violence. What kind of sick fuck objects to this?

All you do is blatantly lie about transcripts, throw randomly chosen insults, and come off like a potentially violent lunatic. I hope this is merely an online tough guy persona this dipshit has.

Where I come from, a normal reaction to someone disagreeing with you is to defend/explain your position. Nope -- Adam dares to disagree with the all knowing one and the response is "Good god not you too."

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Where I come from, a normal reaction to someone disagreeing with you is to defend/explain your position. Nope -- Adam dares to disagree with the all knowing one and the response is "Good god not you too."

I know he believes that you and I, even though we rarely agree, are in some kind of conspiracy against him, but what did Adam ever do?!?!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I know he believes that you and I, even though we rarely agree, are in some kind of conspiracy against him, but what did Adam ever do?!?!

Dunno. Dared to disagree with him? Failed to understand that his post about guns was not intended as a complete or even primary solution, although no one as far as I can tell interpreted it that way? Et tu, Adam?

[ClementeFanOh]

PeterSpaeth and G1911-

Thanks once again for proving my point. I'll stick to facts here (tough for
both of you, I get it):

1) Peter- You tell me to "go #!*& myself", yet I'm the one with the problem.
Where exactly do you come from, anyway? (Don't answer, it's rhetorical).

2) G1911- You exceed even your depths of stupidity. I don't believe you and
your buddy Peter are conspiring against me- I think you are both
egomaniacs. By the way, I did NOT "endorse bringing a gun out at
shows". For someone who pretends to be the ultimate rationalist, such a
blatant lie seems indefensible at this point. You are quite literally making
things up to defame me. My memory isn't what it used to be, but even I
can scroll up, partner.

3) G1911- I hope like heck you mistyped above and that you own M80
fireworks, not an M4. Yep, I've decided to believe that just for peace
of mind.

4) Adam did nothing wrong- he just bit into your inexhaustible desire to
turn the thread to what YOU want to discuss, rather than the poster.
Are the rest of us in any danger of either of you contributing a useful
idea of how to minimize thefts at shows? Or are you stuck in an endless
Moebius strip of inane chatter? I'm just a guy who dislikes hearing about
these high dollar heists and would like to discuss ways to stop them.

I'm done, please continue this 2-person episode of Short Attention Span
Theater. It won't entertain anyone else, but that hasn't stopped you before.

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

PeterSpaeth and G1911-

Thanks once again for proving my point. I'll stick to facts here (tough for
both of you, I get it):

1) Peter- You tell me to "go #!*& myself", yet I'm the one with the problem.
Where exactly do you come from, anyway? (Don't answer, it's rhetorical).

2) G1911- You exceed even your depths of stupidity. I don't believe you and
your buddy Peter are conspiring against me- I think you are both
egomaniacs. By the way, I did NOT "endorse bringing a gun out at
shows". For someone who pretends to be the ultimate rationalist, such a
blatant lie seems indefensible at this point. You are quite literally making
things up to defame me. My memory isn't what it used to be, but even I
can scroll up, partner.

3) G1911- I hope like heck you mistyped above and that you own M80
fireworks, not an M4. Yep, I've decided to believe that just for peace
of mind.

4) Adam did nothing wrong- he just bit into your inexhaustible desire to
turn the thread to what YOU want to discuss, rather than the poster.
Are the rest of us in any danger of either of you contributing a useful
idea of how to minimize thefts at shows? Or are you stuck in an endless
Moebius strip of inane chatter? I'm just a guy who dislikes hearing about
these high dollar heists and would like to discuss ways to stop them.

I'm done, please continue this 2-person episode of Short Attention Span
Theater. It won't entertain anyone else, but that hasn't stopped you before.

Trent King

2) - It is in the transcript, you fucking idiot. When you were informed that a thief cannot be deterred by a gun they don't know exists, you advocated open carrying at card shows before being unable to defend this dumbass idea. You are in the transcript having a meltdown because you are the only one who wants to show off guns at card shows like a god damn lunatic lol. The transcript of your repeated batshit crazy affinity to look for violent solutions defames you.

3) - Yes, it's the guy who is *against violence* that you are raging at in your second Net54 meltdown for endorsing non-violence that is the danger.

4) - Do you have any useful ideas or only the fantasies of a 12 year old COD player? So far your idea here is showing off guns, lying and screeching.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Right, you did not endorse bringing out a gun at shows.

3) Again, the mere presence of a weapon might well persuade a bad guy
to try someone else. "An armed society is a polite society".

And when you were asked to explain how a concealed weapon could deter anyone, you made clear you were talking about open carry.

3) If you really need to be told how a presence of a weapon- concealed or
not- may deter a person with criminal intent, you don't belong in this
chat. (Maybe start with a Google search for "open carry", if you can
manage it).

But we're the ones who are confused.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Will never understand Americans and their passion for guns. No need to explain or defend your views because it's all so foreign to a lot of us who live in countries without this culture.

Anyway, here's a great song from my country about guns which has nothing to do with the conversation here, but good music is good music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH8RoAPKoWk

[MikeGarcia]

.. I MADE POPCORN :

[notfast]

Every thread about a theft results in ClementeFanOh telling everyone why his opinion is right and everyone else’s is wrong. It’s funny.

Also, lots of people conceal carry at card shows. Like A LOT. Especially in PA.

[ClementeFanOh]

Notfast has joined this miserable little battle. If ever I doubted my stance
in this matter, that doubt is now removed... And for the record, Notsmart,
I haven't claimed that I'm right and everyone else is wrong- that's just more
hyperbole from a tired mind. I have made the point that changes need to
happen at shows to make it harder on thieves, and suggested multiple
changes myself. Predictably, one segment started a 2nd Amendment debate
and ignored the actual thrust of the original post. I hardly think I'm right all
the time; however, I am capable of staying on point. How about you?

Trent King

[Exhibitman]

Trent: no hyperbole or sounding off to hear myself think, just throwing some cold water on the Clint Eastwood control fantasies about guns.

Most people are not capable of handling a gun in a stressful situation, let alone in a crowd. They are not trained and have no experience. The few times I've brandished my gun for self-defense reasons at home I've been scared crapless and not sure if I could have hit the side of a barn cleanly had the sight of a big-ass gun not scared off the miscreants. I was not in a crowd, either. Armed in public in a crowd is not a place for amateurs. If shows allow arms, I am far more afraid of some yahoo with a handgun firing wildly into the crowd than I am of anyone stealing cards at a card show.

The laws on the line between self-defense and criminally culpable homicide are very fine and nuanced, again not a place for amateurs to play sheriff. We covered it in law school and just scraped the surface. Most of the popular 'knowledge' about it is folktales. As someone else noted, you can't just shoot someone who stole something, nor are the 'stand your ground' laws in the states that have them as absolute as the fantasists claim.

Now, taking on the topic of show security: I have promoted shows, set up at them, and attended them for nearly 50 years. I was asked into a group that wanted to run shows in LA and I opted not to join because of my concerns about security. It is just a matter of time before the sneak thievery and car break-ins move to armed robbery of dealers or the Los Angeles specialty, the smash and grab flash mob robbery. I do not wish to be on the liability end of any of that.

Most shows I have set up at since COVID have been in municipal facilities patrolled actively by local PD. I think that is the best way to keep the crime to a minimum, visible and active law enforcement presence. If I wanted to promote a show again, it would only be in a facility where I could get police stationed inside and I would also insist on hiring off-duty police officers for additional security.

I completely agree that show attendees and dealers will have to consider paying for security to be part of their future ticket prices and overhead expenses. There is just too much money sloshing around shows to count on amateurs to deter the crime.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I am in no way shaming any victims in saying this, but we hear so many instances of cards being swiped from cases. Cases are normally lockable; no matter how inconvenient it is to have to lock and unlock them constantly, please do so.

[packs]

I've been followed home twice in my life, neither as a result of a card show. Just some asshole who probably saw me go to the ATM or something. Both time I noticed the same car making a series of the same turns and on both occasions I rerouted and pulled into a police station. The first time this happened to me the car didn't even realized what they were doing and pulled into the station too, then quickly made a U-Turn out of the lot.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I am in no way shaming any victims in saying this, but we hear so many instances of cards being swiped from cases. Cases are normally lockable; no matter how inconvenient it is to have to lock and unlock them constantly, please do so.

Our theft threads this year could have been solved by:

1) Not shipping millions in cards to a hotel delivery room.

2) Keeping an eye on the case with extremely expensive cards or locking them in a case too large to effectively snatch and grab.

3) Locking their car in the parking lot.

4) Not leaving expensive cards in a unattended vehicle.

Basic common sense would have prevented all 4. A victim of a crime is not at fault, but a lack of common sense will make one a likelier victim in an imperfect world in which people do bad things. Extremist solutions are not relevant to what has actually happened, especially violent nutters looking for an excuse to display how tough they are.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Notfast has joined this miserable little battle. If ever I doubted my stance
in this matter, that doubt is now removed... And for the record, Notsmart,
I haven't claimed that I'm right and everyone else is wrong- that's just more
hyperbole from a tired mind. I have made the point that changes need to
happen at shows to make it harder on thieves, and suggested multiple
changes myself. Predictably, one segment started a 2nd Amendment debate
and ignored the actual thrust of the original post. I hardly think I'm right all
the time; however, I am capable of staying on point. How about you?

Trent King

Do you attend shows?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by G1911

Our theft threads this year could have been solved by:

1) Not shipping millions in cards to a hotel delivery room.

2) Keeping an eye on the case with extremely expensive cards AND locking them in a case too large to effectively snatch and grab.

3) Locking their car in the parking lot.

4) Not leaving expensive cards in a unattended vehicle.

Basic common sense would have prevented all 4. A victim of a crime is not at fault, but a lack of common sense will make one a likelier victim in an imperfect world in which people do bad things. Extremist solutions are not relevant to what has actually happened, especially violent nutters looking for an excuse to display how tough they are.

One small edit above.

As a dealer, it's a safe assumption that your cases (or the ones you are renting) have locks. All it costs you is extra time and care to fully utilize them.

"I spent my money on the Clapgo D-29. It's the most impenetrable lock on the market today. It has only one design flaw: the door...must be CLOSED!"

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

One small edit above.

As a dealer, your case (or the one you are renting) has to have locks. All it costs you is extra time and care to fully utilize them.

"I spent my money on the Clapgo D-29. It's the most impenetrable lock on the market today. It has only one design flaw: the door...must be CLOSED!"

Your version is better!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by notfast

Do you attend shows?

Hopefully he does not

[Eric72]

Thank you for this post, Adam. In my opinion, reading it was time well spent.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Trent: no hyperbole or sounding off to hear myself think, just throwing some cold water on the Clint Eastwood control fantasies about guns.

Most people are not capable of handling a gun in a stressful situation, let alone in a crowd. They are not trained and have no experience. The few times I've brandished my gun for self-defense reasons at home I've been scared crapless and not sure if I could have hit the side of a barn cleanly had the sight of a big-ass gun not scared off the miscreants. I was not in a crowd, either. Armed in public in a crowd is not a place for amateurs. If shows allow arms, I am far more afraid of some yahoo with a handgun firing wildly into the crowd than I am of anyone stealing cards at a card show.

The laws on the line between self-defense and criminally culpable homicide are very fine and nuanced, again not a place for amateurs to play sheriff. We covered it in law school and just scraped the surface. Most of the popular 'knowledge' about it is folktales. As someone else noted, you can't just shoot someone who stole something, nor are the 'stand your ground' laws in the states that have them as absolute as the fantasists claim.

Now, taking on the topic of show security: I have promoted shows, set up at them, and attended them for nearly 50 years. I was asked into a group that wanted to run shows in LA and I opted not to join because of my concerns about security. It is just a matter of time before the sneak thievery and car break-ins move to armed robbery of dealers or the Los Angeles specialty, the smash and grab flash mob robbery. I do not wish to be on the liability end of any of that.

Most shows I have set up at since COVID have been in municipal facilities patrolled actively by local PD. I think that is the best way to keep the crime to a minimum, visible and active law enforcement presence. If I wanted to promote a show again, it would only be in a facility where I could get police stationed inside and I would also insist on hiring off-duty police officers for additional security.

I completely agree that show attendees and dealers will have to consider paying for security to be part of their future ticket prices and overhead expenses. There is just too much money sloshing around shows to count on amateurs to deter the crime.

[FromVAtoLA]

This thread has devolved, but a question for folks who are dealers. Is it common to hide an airtag in each of your cases, boxes, luggage, etc? It wouldn't prevent a single card from being stolen, but if there's a smash and grab or someone grabs a case like they did in Dallas then you could immediately open your phone and show the cops where your items are. They are like $20 bucks each so it seems pretty cheap relative to the value of your inventory.

[ClementeFanOh]

FromVAtoLA- You, sir, hit the nail on the head. Once again, a determined
minority of attention-starved posters deliberately derailed the thread. It is
common on this board, sadly enough...

Adam/Exhibitman- Thanks for your rational reply, amazing what happens
when a couple people manage to stay on a directly stated point. For the
record, I am very well aware that most folks can't hit the broad side of a
barn under pressure. I have not, am not, and will not advocate for a card
show to look like a GTA mission. I'd much prefer that show promoters
announce the presence of uniformed or plain clothes LE at shows, that
entering folks see a camera at the only entry point, and that sellers and
customers alike take active steps to minimize chances for thieves to act.
Maybe an observant thief notices a concealed carry bulge under a dealer's
shirt and decides to try his luck elsewhere as well- no harm at all in that. I
don't have Eastwood style fantasies about guns at shows, my vision is much
more docile than that- every party taking a role to make it hard on the
thieves who should be the focus of this thread, for example. If some sellers
opt to conceal a weapon for safety there's no need for Constitutional Law
class beforehand- it's up to that person to know what he's about. Judging by
the utter absence of news about dealers/buyers cranking rounds off at shows
because someone made off with their cards, I'd say most people already
grasp this concept.

NotSmart- I've attended shows since 1981 and greatly enjoyed myself at
practically all of them. No cards stolen, zero shots fired. I notice you still
haven't contributed to the actual thread. Good luck with 1911 as an ally.
Such an..."interesting" choice.

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

3) Again, the mere presence of a weapon might well persuade a bad guy
to try someone else. "An armed society is a polite society".

Originally Posted by G1911

3) How is the presence of a concealed firearm going to deter a criminal unless it is first drawn? Read your previous post? Again, it would not have changed any of these cases. I am all in favor of carrying a gun, but it is not for these kinds of thefts.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

3) If you really need to be told how a presence of a weapon- concealed or
not- may deter a person with criminal intent, you don't belong in this
chat. (Maybe start with a Google search for "open carry", if you can
manage it).

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Maybe an observant thief notices a concealed carry bulge under a dealer's
shirt and decides to try his luck elsewhere as well- no harm at all in that. I
don't have Eastwood style fantasies about guns at shows, my vision is much
more docile than that- every party taking a role to make it hard on the
thieves who should be the focus of this thread, for example. If some sellers
opt to conceal a weapon for safety there's no need for Constitutional Law
class beforehand- it's up to that person to know what he's about. Judging by
the utter absence of news about dealers/buyers cranking rounds off at shows
because someone made off with their cards, I'd say most people already
grasp this concept.

At least we have backed off the open carry let's show off our guns to intimate people at card shows lunacy. Now it is strictly concealed - and hopefully a potential thief sees our bulges and is intimidated so he doesn't try anything.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

At least we have backed off the open carry let's show off our guns to intimate people at card shows lunacy. Now it is strictly concealed - and hopefully a potential thief sees our bulges and is intimidated so he doesn't try anything.

It feels like Yogi time -- I never said half the things I said.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It feels like Yogi time -- I never said half the things I said.

Sir I know not what you mean. I merely ran with his new idea that an observant thief will be intimidated and scared off by checking out the dealers bulge, instead of openly displaying his piece to the whole show.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sir I know not what you mean. I merely ran with his new idea that an observant thief will be intimidated and scared off by checking out the dealers bulge, instead of openly displaying his piece to the whole show.

I always check for bulges before attempting thefts, myself.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Now, taking on the topic of show security: I have promoted shows, set up at them, and attended them for nearly 50 years. I was asked into a group that wanted to run shows in LA and I opted not to join because of my concerns about security. It is just a matter of time before the sneak thievery and car break-ins move to armed robbery of dealers or the Los Angeles specialty, the smash and grab flash mob robbery. I do not wish to be on the liability end of any of that.

Most shows I have set up at since COVID have been in municipal facilities patrolled actively by local PD. I think that is the best way to keep the crime to a minimum, visible and active law enforcement presence. If I wanted to promote a show again, it would only be in a facility where I could get police stationed inside and I would also insist on hiring off-duty police officers for additional security.

I completely agree that show attendees and dealers will have to consider paying for security to be part of their future ticket prices and overhead expenses. There is just too much money sloshing around shows to count on amateurs to deter the crime.

The solution is for show promoters to hire visible armed security whether that be off-duty policemen or private security guards.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I always check for bulges before attempting thefts, myself.

Sometimes you have to look. Situational awareness and all that, know your surroundings.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sometimes you have to look. Situational awareness and all that, know your surroundings.

A dealer could just wear one of these.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195021247820

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A dealer could just wear one of these.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195021247820

Considering the joke here I was a little scared to click the link

[ClementeFanOh]

PeterSpaeth and G1911-

You 2 just can't do it, can you? Can't stay on point and avoid hyperbole.
My nickname for you now is Hummingbird 1 and 2- you can call dibs on which
you prefer. By the way, keep ignoring the reality that the high dollar thefts
aren't stopping and that board members who attend shows, are expressing
concern and searching for answers. You 2 should start charging me rent for
the space I occupy in your little brains. I feel sorry for anyone luckless enough
to know you personally.

If anyone else would care to weigh in on the actual topic, I'd be refreshing.

Trent King

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I always check for bulges before attempting thefts, myself.

..I always used to check for bulges when on shore leave in Norfolk .

..Ah , memories ..

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

FromVAtoLA- You, sir, hit the nail on the head. Once again, a determined
minority of attention-starved posters deliberately derailed the thread. It is
common on this board, sadly enough...

Adam/Exhibitman- Thanks for your rational reply, amazing what happens
when a couple people manage to stay on a directly stated point. For the
record, I am very well aware that most folks can't hit the broad side of a
barn under pressure. I have not, am not, and will not advocate for a card
show to look like a GTA mission. I'd much prefer that show promoters
announce the presence of uniformed or plain clothes LE at shows, that
entering folks see a camera at the only entry point, and that sellers and
customers alike take active steps to minimize chances for thieves to act.
Maybe an observant thief notices a concealed carry bulge under a dealer's
shirt and decides to try his luck elsewhere as well- no harm at all in that. I
don't have Eastwood style fantasies about guns at shows, my vision is much
more docile than that- every party taking a role to make it hard on the
thieves who should be the focus of this thread, for example. If some sellers
opt to conceal a weapon for safety there's no need for Constitutional Law
class beforehand- it's up to that person to know what he's about. Judging by
the utter absence of news about dealers/buyers cranking rounds off at shows
because someone made off with their cards, I'd say most people already
grasp this concept.

NotSmart- I've attended shows since 1981 and greatly enjoyed myself at
practically all of them. No cards stolen, zero shots fired. I notice you still
haven't contributed to the actual thread. Good luck with 1911 as an ally.
Such an..."interesting" choice.

Trent King

I’d be embarrassed to be old enough to have attended shows for 40 years and still name call on the internet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

PeterSpaeth and G1911-

You 2 just can't do it, can you? Can't stay on point and avoid hyperbole.
My nickname for you now is Hummingbird 1 and 2- you can call dibs on which
you prefer. By the way, keep ignoring the reality that the high dollar thefts
aren't stopping and that board members who attend shows, are expressing
concern and searching for answers. You 2 should start charging me rent for
the space I occupy in your little brains. I feel sorry for anyone luckless enough
to know you personally.

If anyone else would care to weigh in on the actual topic, I'd be refreshing.

Trent King

Keep up the personal insults. Pathetic. One in every crowd I suppose; most of us here are able to disagree or even have pointed debates civilly and without going ad hominem.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

.. I MADE POPCORN :

Sadly no popcorn because of health issues but I am on my 3rd bag of Pork Rinds because this thread delivers.

I have no real ideas besides stop using cash but we all know the reason that isn't happening. I am kinda amazed with all the cards being shown off on here over the years that a few members haven't had their houses broken into.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

PeterSpaeth and G1911-

You 2 just can't do it, can you? Can't stay on point and avoid hyperbole.
My nickname for you now is Hummingbird 1 and 2- you can call dibs on which
you prefer. By the way, keep ignoring the reality that the high dollar thefts
aren't stopping and that board members who attend shows, are expressing
concern and searching for answers. You 2 should start charging me rent for
the space I occupy in your little brains. I feel sorry for anyone luckless enough
to know you personally.

If anyone else would care to weigh in on the actual topic, I'd be refreshing.

Trent King

Quoting your own words is not hyperbole, sir. There’s a gigantic gap between ignoring anecdotal theft increases and showing off guns at shows to intimidate people. It’s nobodies fault but yours but you said some incredibly stupid shit and proposed some nutball ideas that no sane person is going to agree with.

[Yoda]

[QUOTE=G1911;2464774]Quoting your own words is not hyperbole, sir. There’s a gigantic gap between ignoring anecdotal theft increases and showing off guns at shows to intimidate people. It’s nobodies fault but yours but you said some incredibly stupid shit and proposed some nutball ideas that no sane person is going to agree with.[/QI

I suppose open carry of live hand grenades is out of the question.

[ClementeFanOh]

Yoda- Apparently basic reading comprehension is out of the question.
There's been no call for hand grenades, that's idiocy. I also didn't propose
"incredibly stupid shit" per our resident Rhodes Scholar G1911, either. I
proposed a series of measures every party at a show can do IF people are as
concerned about theft (and worse) as they say, which I believe they are. It's
not hard to comprehend, people need to take heed at shows for their own
sake.

G1911- If you think I'll "back off" from the likes of you, you are dumber
than even I believed. You and PeterSpaeth would be utterly useless if an
actual theft occurred near you or to you- while you were busy debating the
philosophical ramifications of confronting or identifying the thief, or perhaps
thinking of words that rhyme with "thief", he'd just run away. Just so you
don't take THAT quote into outer space, I do NOT want either of you to be
victims of theft at a show. DO NOT. Got that? I don't care if you carry open,
carry concealed, or use a pop gun with a "Bang" sign like Road Runner. I
don't care if you tape money to your forehead and invite theft. Got it? I do
care, however, that people with legitimate concerns (not empty-headed
distraction and deliberate moving of goalposts to hide one's own illogic) do
something to minimize the chances of theft. You're a part of the problem
rather than the solution- it's well established. So, keep lying and joking.
It's really funny, you are quite the cut up!

TLDR- Theft at shows is a real thing. It's not everyone else's concern, it's
everybody's concern. Wake up!

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good god, as someone likes to say. Yoda was goofing. Everyone else but you surely saw that.

Taking everything literally as you appear to do seems related somehow to your freaking out if anyone goes even slightly off topic in a thread. Perhaps you should take a break.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by notfast

I’d be embarrassed to be old enough to have attended shows for 40 years and still name call on the internet.

Call us curmudgeons, but some of us are proud of the edge we've gained through experience!