Uncut Proof sheet c. 1913 with Cobb and Joe Jackson in May '24 Hunt Auctions

[cgjackson222]

Any thoughts on the potential history of this uncut sheet with Cobb and Joe Jackson that was sold by Hunt Auctions for $30K plus buyer's premium?

Do people think it is legit?

https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=501&lot_qual=

[brianp-beme]

I don't think anyone really knows much about this, beyond what was written up in the Hunt description. It certainly seems to have been identified to be from around the 1913 date based upon the players and a couple of paper experts, and it appears to my eyes to be colorized photos. They have an unique look.

What a great mini-set this could have been! Besides the obvious superstar appeal of Jackson and Cobb, I love the two action shots (Bender and Marquard), and the Davis with the two cops in the background.


Brian (and here is an even bigger scan to appreciate the look of this sheet even more)

[packs]

The Harry Davis image is cool. I'm guessing he's hoisting a flag maybe?

[JollyElm]

Seems (wherever this comes from) that they misspelled it "HUGIHE" Jennings.

[Hankphenom]

That is nice! Amazing what pops up.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Seems (wherever this comes from) that they misspelled it "HUGIHE" Jennings.

Looks like the pack-issued (lol?) version fixed the spelling.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Looks like the pack-issued (lol?) version fixed the spelling.

I'd never seen a non-proof version of these cards. I like the look of the non-proof version with Hughie spelled correctly.
To me, this gives slightly more credence to the idea that these are legitimate cards.

The below description says the card "has been nestled for decades in an advanced collection". I wonder if there are any other non-proof versions of the cards out there.
https://bid.hugginsandscott.com/bids...?itemid=223653

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I don't think anyone really knows much about this, beyond what was written up in the Hunt description. It certainly seems to have been identified to be from around the 1913 date based upon the players and a couple of paper experts, and it appears to my eyes to be colorized photos. They have an unique look.

What a great mini-set this could have been! Besides the obvious superstar appeal of Jackson and Cobb, I love the two action shots (Bender and Marquard), and the Davis with the two cops in the background.


Brian (and here is an even bigger scan to appreciate the look of this sheet even more)

I know nothing about it at all. To me it looks like something the modern Helmar company would make.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I know nothing about it at all. To me it looks like something the modern Helmar company would make.

Ha ha, don’t give them ideas.

[FrankWakefield]

Just from that image, I don't think it is real. I'm sure they think it is; otherwise, it wouldn't be in their catalog.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Just from that image, I don't think it is real. I'm sure they think it is; otherwise, it wouldn't be in their catalog.

My thoughts exactly.

[GasHouseGang]

It's hard to imagine a sheet like that sitting around for 111 years without being discovered. Is there any explanation given about where they found it? Maybe in the files of some defunct printing company? It's also surprising that no other cards from this set have apparently ever surfaced. Amazing discovery.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

It's hard to imagine a sheet like that sitting around for 111 years without being discovered. Is there any explanation given about where they found it? Maybe in the files of some defunct printing company? It's also surprising that no other cards from this set have apparently ever surfaced. Amazing discovery.

The only explanation given in the description is “Important discovery originates from a hobbyist who acquired the piece in the Brooklyn area over 40 years ago.”

I want to give the benefit of the doubt, but I am skeptical.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

It's hard to imagine a sheet like that sitting around for 111 years without being discovered. Is there any explanation given about where they found it? Maybe in the files of some defunct printing company? It's also surprising that no other cards from this set have apparently ever surfaced. Amazing discovery.

An attic. In a trunk. It's an attic find no doubt.

[4815162342]

If only it had been found in an attic in Ohio.

[Lucas00]

It is a very intriguing piece. Definitely suspicious of the high tier player choice, but that of course was common to do for the day.

The printing and images chosen to me are very high quality, something I just can't see being done post war.

If I had to personally guess what I think this is, I would say there's a good chance it's something akin to '33 Goudey. Some sort of popular/star player release from slightly later maybe the 20s-30s.

If the original photos used to create these aren't known to exist or most aren't I would give even more merit to them being real. (Lost media=impossible to use in modern era?)

Just my thoughts.

[G1911]

Other authentic vintage uncut material of this age has surfaced in the New York area in the last few years. Being discovered so much later does not raise doubt in my mind by itself.

It is nigh impossible to authenticate an unknown item though, which, if period, may not even be for unissued cards but testing other kinds of printed pictures.

I am surprised by the price paid by someone, unless they know something I do not which is very possible. I was watching this one.

[oldjudge]

Who is Roy Otis?

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who is Roy Otis?

Good question. I found a Paul Franklin Otis, identified as 'Bill Otis' on the Baseball Reference site, that played 4 games for the New York Yankees in early July, 1912. Emblem experts...is the 'NY' on his sleeve match what was on Yankee uniforms in the early 1910's?

It fits the time frame of the proof sheet, and 'Paul' or 'Bill' could easily be mistaken for Roy. Ok, the name thing is a little sketchy stretchy, but it could have been a mistake.

Here is a photo of Bill Otis next to the Roy Otis card on the sheet. There are some similarities (the shape of his ear is pretty similar, the eyes and mouth as well), but not convinced it is a good match due to the fullness of face on the proof sheet compared to Bill's photo.

proofsheetpaulfranklinotis.jpg
proofsheet1913royotis.jpg


Brian

[brianp-beme]

Taking a look at some 1912 T207 cards, the 'NY' emblem seen on the proof sheet does seem to match those seen on Yankee player T207 cards.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Fun side factoid. Bill Otis was 1 for 17 during his major league career, his one hit coming off Walter Johnson in an extra inning game that Johnson came in the fourth inning to pitch over 12 innings of relief(!).

He was also the oldest living MLB player (100 years old) when he passed away in 1990.


Brian

[babraham]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who is Roy Otis?

Hunt Auctions write-up on the uncut sheet says that it was supposed to be Otis Crandall?

"Thin to medium stock paper uncut sheet (slightly thicker than 1914/1915 Cracker Jack card issues) depicting (12) Major League players in full color including Ty Cobb, Bill Schardt, Chief Bender, Roy Otis (actually Otis Crandall), Hughie Jennings, Ira Thomas, Vean Gregg, Harry Davis, Hub Perdue, Rube Marquard, Joe Jackson, and Frank Baker."

[jcmtiger]

Not for me, only as a fantasy piece. Been Collecting Ty Cobb items, cards and memoriblia since 1970. Dubious. Never saw anything like this. Colorized. But admit had these calendar pieces that were colorized.

[kcohen]

I might be convinced if authenticated by Rick Harrison's memorabilia expert, or by Seth Gold,

[Leon]

Originally Posted by kcohen

I might be convinced if authenticated by Rick Harrison's memorabilia expert, or by Seth Gold,

I want the guy with the HUGE magnifying glass!!
.

[Beercan collector]

For what it’s worth Harry Davis was in Cleveland for only one year - 1912

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

For what it’s worth Harry Davis was in Cleveland for only one year - 1912

Davis managed the club that one season. I would not be surprised if the photo on which this "card" is based was taken Opening Day, since it was common for the home team to have a parade and flag raising ceremony for the occasion, and the manager handling the flag raising would make sense, it that's what's going on in the picture (maybe with the mayor or other dignitary on the other side, plus note one of the officials in the background is removing his hat).

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Leon

I want the guy with the HUGE magnifying glass!!
.

I'm sure Drew could get to the bottom of this.

[Prof]

What did this end up selling for, if at all?

I stumbled across the listing a few days before the auction and it intrigued me. I didn't get to look into it myself, but it's always cool to see some collective brainpower and legwork to find matching cards.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Prof

What did this end up selling for, if at all?

Read post 21.

[nolemmings]

Sale price at bottom:

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Sale price at bottom:

Estimated Price Range: ($40,000 - $60,000)
They thought it would go for double of $30,000.

[boneheadandrube]

FWIW thats the price without the buyers premium. All Hunt results are without it.