Roberto Clemente Signature "Bob"

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And if it really was his common and acceptable nickname, why didn't other companies use it, and why did Topps change it back in 1970?

Why did they change it to Bob in 1957 in the first place? His name is Roberto on his 1955 and 1956 Topps cards, why change it?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

You are biased just like every human. You just like to hide it in your talk about Aristotle, and reason. If I had a nickel for every time you used the phrase "Any claim to fact should have an evidentiary basis" while at the same time showing your biases, I could afford a '52 Mantle rookie.

Obviously every person has a bias - I have many of them. I claim we should separate statements of my opinions from claims to actual fact. I claim that we should provide evidence for a claim to fact. Feel free to point out a claim to fact here that is incorrect.

I think that claims to fact should be built on evidence, and that the research should be before the conclusion. You know, very basic logic of the middle school variety. I know that’s unpopular with people that prefer to not have an evidentiary basis or have to ascertain facts. I have never noticed a correlation between being correct and ignoring an evidentiary basis. If my biased dumb ass can handle basic logic, I’m sure you brilliant gentleman may do so as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Why did they change it to Bob in 1957 in the first place? His name is Roberto on his 1955 and 1956 Topps cards, why change it?

Unless Topps has some sort of documentation of both changes in their archives, we will never know.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

Obviously every person has a bias - I have many of them. I claim we should separate statements of my opinions from claims to actual fact. I claim that we should provide evidence for a claim to fact. Feel free to point out a claim to fact here that is incorrect.

I think that claims to fact should be built on evidence, and that the research should be before the conclusion. You know, very basic logic of the middle school variety. I know that’s unpopular with people that prefer to not have an evidentiary basis or have to ascertain facts. I have never noticed a correlation between being correct and ignoring an evidentiary basis. If my biased dumb ass can handle basic logic, I’m sure you brilliant gentleman may do so as well.

People hear stuff and read stuff and just repeat it without ever checking to see if its true. Nowhere is that more true than when it comes to 1919 Black Sox, people continually repeat the lies of the 8 Men Out book and movie. But thats a different discussion.

[nolemmings]

Not taking sides here, but I note that Clemente's 1967 Topps card has a facsimile signature of "Bob". Assuming it was taken from an actual handwritten exemplar, it would seem he had signed in this way. I suppose it could be fake or that Topps scoured all over to find a "Bob" sig to reproduce. I could not find such usage in any of his other cards, including Kahn's, Kellogg's and a couple of local issues. Maybe our friends from the autograph side can shed some light on how frequently Clemente signed as "Bob".

[packs]

Hate to burst the bubble in the room but in my opinion I see a rushed and squished Roberto and not the "Bob" everyone's talking about. Look at the first letter of the signature. It looks just like the facsimile R for Roberto's signature which leads me to believe it is an R and not a B.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Hate to burst the bubble in the room but in my opinion I see a rushed and squished Roberto and not the "Bob" everyone's talking about. Look at the first letter of the signature. It looks just like the facsimile R for Roberto's signature which leads me to believe it is an R and not a B.

But it very clearly cuts off after "b." So you think he signed it "Rob" Clemente? Very confusing.

Speaking of his facsimile sigs, what's going on with 1959?

[packs]

I think what I said: that it’s just a rushed and squished version of Roberto. His last name comes right up the border of the card so maybe he just squished it in. I don’t know what else to think about the R in his facsimile signature, which is pretty distinct, looking like the first letter in his in person signature. I don’t see two different letters I see two R’s.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

I think what I said: that it’s just a rushed and squished version of Roberto. His last name comes right up the border of the card so maybe he just squished it in. I don’t know what else to think about the R in his facsimile signature, which is pretty distinct, looking like the first letter in his in person signature. I don’t see two different letters I see two R’s.

The one in our auction was very clearly Bob.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by G1911

Obviously every person has a bias - I have many of them. I claim we should separate statements of my opinions from claims to actual fact. I claim that we should provide evidence for a claim to fact. Feel free to point out a claim to fact here that is incorrect.

I think that claims to fact should be built on evidence, and that the research should be before the conclusion. You know, very basic logic of the middle school variety. I know that’s unpopular with people that prefer to not have an evidentiary basis or have to ascertain facts. I have never noticed a correlation between being correct and ignoring an evidentiary basis. If my biased dumb ass can handle basic logic, I’m sure you brilliant gentleman may do so as well.

I’m glad you brought this up. One of the biggest myths on this Board is that “ears don’t change” when aging. This fallacy is used to ID players in photos (especially in comparing the photos of the younger player to his older shelf).

This is from WebMD:

“You may have heard that your nose and ears never stop growing. As you get older, you might notice that your nose looks bigger or your earlobes look longer than they did when you were younger. Is there any truth to the idea that they are still growing?

Your nose and ears indeed change as you get older, but it isn’t that they’re growing. Instead, what you’re seeing is the effects of skin changes and gravity. Other parts of your body change in the same ways, but your ears and nose are more visible and more noticeable.”

[EddieP]

The encyclopedia Britannica:

“ While Clemente amassed a mountain of impressive statistics during his career, he was often mocked by the print media in the United States for his heavy Spanish accent. Clemente was also subjected to the double discrimination of being a foreigner and being Black in a racially segregated society. Although the media tried to call him “Bob” or “Bobby” and many of his baseball cards use “Bob,” Clemente explicitly rejected those nicknames, stating in no uncertain terms that his name was Roberto.
There was also confusion over the correct form of his surname. For 27 years the plaque at the National Baseball Hall of Fame read “Roberto Walker Clemente,” mistakenly placing his mother’s maiden name before his father’s surname. Only in 2000 was it changed to its proper Latin American form, Roberto Clemente Walker.”

My $0.02 : Clemente suffered the Dick Allen Effect.

[EddieP]

Double post

[ALBB]

Yea, after looking at that sig again.. its looks like a lot more then just - b-o-b,..I think a rushed scribbled Roberto

[cgjackson222]

I'm pretty unconvinced by all of the supposed "Bob" Clemente signatures.

I think its pretty easy to forge a signature, and the memorabilia world is rife with fakes that have been identified as authentic by the "experts".

I am also unconvinced by the 1967 Topps card's supposed "Bob" Clemente signature. We are talking about a company that routinely airbrushed and tampered with photographs. At least one person doesn't even think it says Bob, but rather "Rob" which adds another wrinkle.

I am also unconvinced that Topps was overtly racist or had malevolent intentions in calling him Bob. On the back of both the '57 and '62 cards, for instance, he is referred to as Roberto. I think Topps calling him Bob was probably a sloppy oversight.

What we can say for certain, is that he unequivocally told the Press in 1955 that he wanted to be called Roberto Clemente (see post#34). Whether that changed later in his life, we may never know for sure.

[AndrewJerome]

This is a very interesting topic. The Topps usage and changes over time especially. Why would Topps unilaterally make the change to Bob without asking him? And why was the change made to Bob in the first place if no one called him Bob? Surely if he asked for a change back to Roberto, Topps would have made the change for him, right? Certainly for the year after he requested the change. Why would Topps refuse to use the name he wanted? I don’t buy the idea that he allowed “Bob” just so he had a card. There would be a card of him every year either way, why not have it be the name he wanted? And why was the change made to Bob in the first place if no one called him Bob? That’s the part I’m confused about. Some random, rogue Topps employee doing this and having it stick for years doesn’t logically make any sense.

On the flip side, no one calls me Andy, always Andrew my whole life. If I had a card, and it said Andy on it, my initial thought (now) would be like you gotta change that thing asap. Like yesterday. However, when I was a young kid 15 1/2 working my first job, they made a shirt for me that said “Andy” on it. They didn’t ask me, just printed it that way. And I wore it that way the entire time I worked there because I thought it was funny. So who knows!

I guess the threshold question to answer is: as a general matter, do we know what power players had over what exact name was put on a Topps card? And are there other players whose name/nickname changed on the front of their cards over the course of their Topps run?

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by AndrewJerome

And are there other players whose name/nickname changed on the front of their cards over the course of their Topps run?

Dick Allen. When he came up the Phillies called him “Richie” to make him less threatening. Allen hated that name. But his cards from 1964-70 had either “ Richie” or “Rich”.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Someone already mentioned Albert/Joey Belle. Topps decided to use "Rock Raines" on Tim's cards, but I want to say that was only for one year.

Tony Oliva was Pedro on his RC. There have been many others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ironically or not, Roberto, Bobby, and Bob Avila all appeared on different cards. Topps used Bobby. Bowman and Red Man used Roberto.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Orestes Minoso.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ironically or not, Roberto, Bobby, and Bob Avila all appeared on different cards.

One guy who did not mind being called Bob. Signed his name that way all the time.

Then, there's Carlos Trevino, the elder, lesser-known brother of Alex. He had no major issue MLB cards, but was called "Bobby" for reasons unknown to me. He also apparently didn't mind the nickname, as he usually signed "Carlos 'Bobby' Trevino" post-career.

Miguels Gonzalez and de la Hoz are among several Miguels who had no problem being referred to as Mike, as they usually signed with the Americanized version of their first name.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

One guy who did not mind being called Bob. Signed his name that way all the time.

Then, there's Carlos Trevino, the elder, lesser-known brother of Alex. He had no major issue MLB cards, but was called "Bobby" for reasons unknown to me. He also apparently didn't mind the nickname, as he usually signed "Carlos 'Bobby' Trevino" post-career.

Miguels Gonzalez and de la Hoz are among several Miguels who had no problem being referred to as Mike, as they usually signed with the Americanized version of their first name.

Fun stories. Reminds me a bit of my own family history.

My great grandfather, Giuseppe Tranquillo Pinoli, immigrated to the US in 1901, ultimately landing in a rural part of NorCal known as Anderson Valley, along with his 4 brothers. On old maps of the area, there's even a part of Philo labeled as "Ite-Town", showing where the Italians all lived. Shortly after arriving, Giuseppe started to go by Joe. Even went so far as to sign just about everything Joe. After convincing my great-grandmother to move to the US (they were married in San Francisco after she arrived in 1913), and when they started having kids, a family friend convinced them to give the kids all solid American names - Arthur, Inez, Norris, and Raymond. If you happen to go to the Evergreen Cemetery in Boonville, you will notice that even his grave stone uses Joe.

Fast forward a few generations, and after serving a mission in Italy, my father decided all of his kids needed good Italian names. But growing up, everyone at school gave me crap for having a foreign sounding name, so I went by Nick. Took me a while to get a little confidence and realize that I should lean into it a bit more. When I went off to college, I discovered real quick that the ladies all seemed more interested in the exotic fellows. At that point, I dropped Nick and went by my full name Nicolo, and have never gone back.

Of course, if you talk to my mother or any of my siblings, I'm still Nick. And aside from my little nieces who call me Uncle Colo, everyone else calls me by my full name.

Except I guess for BobC, who took it upon himself to call me Nic, and I haven't had the heart to correct him.

[packs]

I would think the overall chances of Roberto Clemente signing his name as "Bob Clemente" would be pretty slim. Think about Giancarlo Stanton. As long as he went by "Mike Stanton" he didn't sign his name Giancarlo Stanton. Even now that he goes by Giancarlo Stanton professionally, he still uses his original "Mike Stanton" signature because I'm guessing that's how he was used to signing his name his entire life before he decided to go by his birth name.

He didn't start signing his name any differently and as far as I know unless specifically asked to sign Giancarlo he doesn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Long after he changed his name, didn't Ali occasionally sign as Cassius Clay?

[packs]

He definitely did because there are some Cassius Clay signatures out there that were clearly signed late in life but again he wouldn't just be walking around doing that. I'm sure that was part of an organized signing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Slight diversion, but who said about Clemente, he could field a ball in New York and throw out a runner in Pennsylvania?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Slight diversion, but who said about Clemente, he could field a ball in New York and throw out a runner in Pennsylvania?

Vin Scully: https://calltothepen.com/2018/04/13/...clemente-mays/

[Peter_Spaeth]

Such a great line. Now back to his signature before Trent gets on my case for going off topic.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by AndrewJerome

And are there other players whose name/nickname changed on the front of their cards over the course of their Topps run?

This guy:

[Peter_Spaeth]

David Ortiz' LAST name changed.

[JollyElm]

George/Jorge Orta. I actually wrote to Topps thinking I found another incredible variation. Alas...

[packs]

Different set of circumstances but there’s Fausto Carmona and Roberto Hernandez.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

George/Jorge Orta. I actually wrote to Topps thinking I found another incredible variation. Alas...

Same for Bell.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Different set of circumstances but there’s Fausto Carmona and Roberto Hernandez.

https://www.si.com/mlb/guardians/opi...fausto-carmona

I remember well for a brief period, namely 2007, he was really quite good. Fortunately for the Red Sox, he didn't have it in either of his starts in the ALCS, got shelled.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Same for Bell.

OMG, I'm a 'misremembericating' idiot. It was actually Bell I wrote to Topps about. Had Mr. Orta on my mind, for some reason.