Fake 1915 Cracker Jack in PSA holder...wow!

[jerseygary]

(Looks like John beat me to it)

I can see how it could be confusing.

What the photos are showing is a regular un-aged Dover reprint card compared with the slabbed card, which is also a Dover reprint card which has been artificially aged. Neither card shown is original, both are reprints from the same source.

[JollyElm]

Wow, then those graphics really need to have 'Dover Reprint' written beneath both.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Wow, then those graphics really need to have 'Dover Reprint' written beneath both.

I think the top one should have "PSA Authenticated 1915 Cracker Jack" beneath it.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I think the top one should have "PSA Authenticated 1915 Cracker Jack" beneath it.

Good idea. I'll go back and add that in now. I just threw it together quickly and didn't think to add that or organize it better at least.

[oldeboo]

Here are some updates to the graphic to help anyone that was confused. I think it's a little easier to understand, although it is very busy for 1 image, so I apologize.

For anyone struggling with identifying some of the commonly distributed doctored reprints, it's usually a good idea to just go on Ebay and search "Mack Cracker Jack Reprint," as an example, you'll find the common ones at least. Obviously, there are ones much more sophisticated than these.

Edit: to be clear, the card which is slabbed is identified in the graphic as "PSA Authenticated 1915 Cracker Jack Dover Reprint." This card has been determined to be a Dover Reprint card by this board. PSA deemed it to be a genuine 1915 Cracker Jack card.

[doug.goodman]

...a poor reflection on PSA.

Here's another "poor reflection" from early in their history...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Her's another "poor reflection" from early in their history...

At least they are consistent.

[Rhotchkiss]

“Never Get Cheated”..... a great punchline to this TPG malpractice.

John, is this over on blowout?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

John, is this over on blowout?

Yeah, I added it to the back of a thread in the baseball section and the grading section.

Oh, and I bid $50 on the slabbed fake.

[Tao_Moko]

This is so far from an isolated incident. I've said it a million times - the tpg's lack controls to consistently, effectively and accurately measure a cards condition. And in this case even authenticate.

[Fred]

Grading is subjective... it looked real to the grader... That's just unbelievable.

[jchcollins]

My question is, does PSA now make good on their grading guarantee and buy back that card from him at a genuine PSA 1.5 1915 CJ Connie Mack price?

They sure as hell should have to...

[Throttlesteer]

On a side note, I'm impressed he sent the card in June and already got it back

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

My question is, does PSA now make good on their grading guarantee and buy back that card from him at a genuine PSA 1.5 1915 CJ Connie Mack price?

They sure as hell should have to...

Nope, the original submitter cannot make a claim on the grade guarantee. Someone would have to buy it and then make a claim.

[Rhotchkiss]

Dave Smith,

Sincere thanks for coming on here and telling your story - stories/incidents like these, posted on forums like this, help keep collectors’ eyes open and, sometimes, cause change in the hobby.

Ryan

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Nope, the original submitter cannot make a claim on the grade guarantee. Someone would have to buy it and then make a claim.

Well that sucks.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

My question is, does PSA now make good on their grading guarantee and buy back that card from him at a genuine PSA 1.5 1915 CJ Connie Mack price?

They sure as hell should have to...

Well, they did once buy back a fake Babe Ruth RC that they graded. But times have changed and they don't need to care any longer.

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

On a side note, I'm impressed he sent the card in June and already got it back

Lmfao I was thinking the same thing

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, they did once buy back a fake Babe Ruth RC that they graded. But times have changed and they don't need to care any longer.

Very sad but true.... They don't give two shits about the collector. It's only about profits, favoritism and stock price escalation. Truth be damned.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Very sad but true.... They don't give two shits about the collector. It's only about profits, favoritism and stock price escalation. Truth be damned.

I can't recall his name, maybe someone here does - but one of the guys on the FB groups is a fairly new VP at PSA/CU. He did post yesterday for the owner of that card to please contact him. I would hope they would make it right, but would agree this day in age - would not be surprised if they don't.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I can't recall his name, maybe someone here does - but one of the guys on the FB groups is a fairly new VP at PSA/CU. He did post yesterday for the owner of that card to please contact him. I would hope they would make it right, but would agree this day in age - would not be surprised if they don't.

If PSA recalls the card, it serves to benefit themselves, first and foremost. They are not doing it because it's the right thing for the collector. They are doing it to squelch and hide their ineptitude by getting it off the market.

They are quick to hide and conceal their blunders on obvious fakes, but have no problem whatsoever keeping their more subtle bleached, recolored and trimmed cards in circulation... no matter how conclusive the before/after evidence of tampering and alteration.

[DWS44]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I can't recall his name, maybe someone here does - but one of the guys on the FB groups is a fairly new VP at PSA/CU. He did post yesterday for the owner of that card to please contact him. I would hope they would make it right, but would agree this day in age - would not be surprised if they don't.

Yes, the person you mention from PSA, or at least sounds like the same person, contacted me yesterday afternoon via ebay after someone tipped them off on FB to the listing. After passing a few brief emails, he is supposed to call me this afternoon to discuss. Not sure what to expect.

Have I mentioned it's been an interesting 24 hours?!?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by DWS44

Yes, the person you mention from PSA, or at least sounds like the same person, contacted me yesterday afternoon via ebay after someone tipped them off on FB to the listing. After passing a few brief emails, he is supposed to call me this afternoon to discuss. Not sure what to expect.

Have I mentioned it's been an interesting 24 hours?!?

I know others have said, but thank you again for posting here and the disclosure. I'm sure it's been interesting to say the least!

[Rhotchkiss]

Dave, you have done nothing wrong- you submitted a card to an “expert”, paid their fee, and they totally f-ed up and graded a reprint (not even a good one); and hell, you disclosed right on the submission form that you suspected it to be a reprint.

I have messaged you about this and you know where I stand, but my offer to buy the card and concomitant paperwork for 100% of whatever you have in it remains open.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Dave, you have done nothing wrong- you submitted a card to an “expert”, paid their fee, and they totally f-ed up and graded a reprint (not even a good one); and hell, you disclosed right on the submission form that you suspected it to be a reprint.

I have messaged you about this and you know where I stand, but my offer to buy the card and concomitant paperwork for 100% of whatever you have in it remains open.

+1...Nice, Ryan!!!!!!

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

concomitant

That is the coolest word I have seen here since PS left.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Dave, you have done nothing wrong- you submitted a card to an “expert”, paid their fee, and they totally f-ed up and graded a reprint (not even a good one); and hell, you disclosed right on the submission form that you suspected it to be a reprint.

I have messaged you about this and you know where I stand, but my offer to buy the card and concomitant paperwork for 100% of whatever you have in it remains open.

+1 that would be a cool card to own. I have owned 3 counterfeit PSA graded cards in the past.

[Jgrace]

Originally Posted by bnorth

+1 that would be a cool card to own. I have owned 3 counterfeit PSA graded cards in the past.

I own one - a fake 1991 Topps Desert Shield that got past PSA. That was before I learned to not take the authenticity of graded cards for granted.

[ruth-gehrig]

A counterfeit "authenticated" card thread with pictures sounds fun

[jchcollins]

What is PSA's move if he says "Sorry, you can't have it back." LOL.

[oldeboo]

Yeah, there has to be a lot of PSA authenticated counterfeit cards out there, would be neat to see them in one thread. I'd wager people would pay more than a PSA genuine card in some cases. Crazy world we live in.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

What is PSA's move if he says "Sorry, you can't have it back." LOL.

PSA moves on, then a bidding war occurs here

[slightlyrounded]

God bless this thread. Such an affirmation of my choice to mostly buy raw, despite all advice otherwise.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

PSA moves on, then a bidding war occurs here

Sell it to your neighbor for $1. Then have the neighbor file under PSA's guarantee, LOL.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

God bless this thread. Such an affirmation of my choice to mostly buy raw, despite all advice otherwise.

Buy raw all you want, but caveat emptor. If I'm buying raw, I would hope I know a hell of a lot more about 1915 Cracker Jack cards than PSA apparently does.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

God bless this thread. Such an affirmation of my choice to mostly buy raw, despite all advice otherwise.

Bravo! Looks a little more like ecce homo habilis.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

What is PSA's move if he says "Sorry, you can't have it back." LOL.

Just a guess. Remove the cert from their data base and sue him when someone else tries to cash in on the guarantee.

I would also guess after he talks to PSA we will not hear the details of what took place.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just a guess. Remove the cert from their data base and sue him when someone else tries to cash in on the guarantee.

I would also guess after he talks to PSA we will not hear the details of what took place.

I would guess you are right on what happens after they talk to him. If I were PSA I would want to pay out under the guarantee (I know that a submitter is supposedly not eligible, whatever) or buy the card from him at a price worth his while to leave a good impression. But not sure they react that way. Yes, clearly this is not the first huge swing and miss PSA has had in the authenticity department. This is just the worst one I've seen aired publicly in a long time.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Hi Dave,

I just got around to reading your post explaining things and wanted to let you know that my own post about believing the card to have been switched was not meant to infer that you were the one who switched it out, but that at some point someone likely did. Sorry if you took it to mean I was questioning your integrity. I never meant to do that.

And thanks for posting the explanation.

Thanks,

Andy

[luciobar1980]

Scrolling down the thread I just knew that it would be found that PSA graded the card, and so many people here defending or not willing to believe the seller at first. SMH As if PSA has a spotless record, from either a moral or technical standpoint. I'm sure it was graded authentic as an honest mistake, which is crazy, but the way some people act as if PSA is beyond reproach, morally or technically, is beyond me.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

What is PSA's move if he says "Sorry, you can't have it back." LOL.

They retaliate by banning his account and ability submit cards in the future.

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by DWS44

Yes, the person you mention from PSA, or at least sounds like the same person, contacted me yesterday afternoon via ebay after someone tipped them off on FB to the listing. After passing a few brief emails, he is supposed to call me this afternoon to discuss. Not sure what to expect.

Have I mentioned it's been an interesting 24 hours?!?

Inquiring minds want to know. What the heck did Mr. PSA say when he called you? What was the deal’s terms, or is it premised on confidentiality?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

Inquiring minds want to know. What the heck did Mr. PSA say when he called you? What was the deal’s terms, or is it premised on confidentiality?

I'd love to know as well... ASAP. Because once you make a deal with the devil, they'll swear you to secrecy.

Ryan's generous offer is probably the better one anyway.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I'd love to know as well... ASAP. Because once you make a deal with the devil, they'll swear you to secrecy.

Ryan's generous offer is probably the better one anyway.

Pretty sure Ryan's break even offer is not even close to the best he has received.

[swarmee]

My bid of $50 seems to still be the mark inside of this thread. But I don't want the poor guy to be banned from PSA if he won't return it to them.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by swarmee

My bid of $50 seems to still be the mark inside of this thread. But I don't want the poor guy to be banned from PSA if he won't return it to them.

Are you saying you think PSA would ban him if he refused to send it to them?

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Here are some updates to the graphic to help anyone that was confused. I think it's a little easier to understand, although it is very busy for 1 image, so I apologize.

For anyone struggling with identifying some of the commonly distributed doctored reprints, it's usually a good idea to just go on Ebay and search "Mack Cracker Jack Reprint," as an example, you'll find the common ones at least. Obviously, there are ones much more sophisticated than these.

That graphic works better, and spells it out more clearly. The busy-ness is fine, methinks, but I do have one last piece of advice to think about. Sorry. With regards to the PSA authenticated Dover reprint, someone seeing the graphic may not realize that PSA thought it was an original CJ card, know what I mean? Looking at it in a vacuum, someone may think that the graphic shown is a closeup of a card with a PSA label stating that it is a reprint. Perhaps I'm too much of a perfectionist, but it is worth mentioning.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

That graphic works better, and spells it out more clearly. The busy-ness is fine, methinks, but I do have one last piece of advice to think about. Sorry. With regards to the PSA authenticated Dover reprint, someone seeing the graphic may not realize that PSA thought it was an original CJ card, know what I mean? Looking at it in a vacuum, someone may think that the graphic shown is a closeup of a card with a PSA label stating that it is a reprint. Perhaps I'm too much of a perfectionist, but it is worth mentioning.

Understand, no doubt. When I first discovered this card on Ebay, I was the first one to post about it in another thread, then this one was created and I added the same two images. The first one was of the front and back of the whole slab, then the variation of the second image to point out how it was indeed a Dover Reprint. That was my only intent. I just wanted to show it so people could see it closer, although someone who is legally blind could see those perforations and all of the issues. I figured there would be a heavy resistance from people who love PSA and they would say that the card was either simply questionable or a doctored slab. My intent was to show the whole slab to show that there was no apparent doctoring and details of the card to show why it wasn't genuine. Certainly don't want it to be deceiving at all, but don't want to really change it again unless someone really needs it.

I mean what is this card? A reprint? A forgery? Yeah, sure PSA thinks it's genuine, but I'd rather call it what it is...a reprint, albeit doctored.

It's plenty clear enough in this thread that PSA was fooled by a terrible reprint and did not put reprint on the slab. They were just plain fooled and couldn't detect the card with their expertise.

I added the whole slab picture back into the above and edited this in:
"Edit: to be clear, the card which is slabbed is identified in the graphic as "PSA Authenticated 1915 Cracker Jack Dover Reprint." This card has been determined to be a Dover Reprint card by this board. PSA deemed it to be a genuine 1915 Cracker Jack card."

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by conor912

Are you saying you think PSA would ban him if he refused to send it to them?

I wouldn't put it past them. But your mileage may vary. PSA is very good at banning people.

[Rhotchkiss]

John, can you post a link to your thread about this in blowout? I cannot find it (I find that site overwhelming and I am dumb- a tuff combination). Thanks