"Grading Scandal" in a nutshell, please

[drcy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

a billion dollar fraud but for whatever reason no lawsuits....any other billion dollar frauds with no lawsuits?

How do you know there have been no lawsuits?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

a billion dollar fraud but for whatever reason no lawsuits....any other billion dollar frauds with no lawsuits?

Not that I know of which makes this scam all the more remarkable

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nothing personal but this is sort of an ignorant statement. Haven't you read the many, many threads, which have stated unequivocally, there is a formal investigation going on by the FBI?

I think he might just be frustrated that these Dealers and TPGs continue to do business as usual (and rake in money, from mostly unsuspecting victims) while the investigation transpires. It's as if nothing has changed, despite the tens of thousands of altered cards revealed in numbered PSA holders.

All entities are still seemingly thriving (for now, anyway). Patience is a virtue … but is difficult for those of us who are eager to see industry fraud and corruption cleaned up.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by drcy

How do you know there have been no lawsuits?

i dont, as i have said before correct me if i an wrong. I assume someone on blowout or somewhere else would of mentioned it. lawsuits are not secrets they are in public view

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I think he might just be frustrated that these Dealers and TPGs continue to do business as usual (and rake in money, from mostly unsuspecting victims) while the investigation transpires. It's as if nothing has changed, despite the tens of thousands of altered cards revealed in numbered PSA holders.

All entities are still seemingly thriving (for now, anyway). Patience is a virtue … but is difficult for those of us who are eager to see industry fraud and corruption cleaned up.

+1 That is how I read the post also.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bmcnutt;1944274/

Back in the day, if you had a NR/MT 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle that booked for $600.00, you paid no more than $600.00.

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by "back in the day", but I would not agree with this statement. Even back in the late 80's, when Beckett was king - it was understood that there was a high column and a low column, and explicitly stated that for year ranges in their price guides, some cards that were truly above "NM" condition could command higher prices than even the "high" column reported. I saw dealers back then do that frequently with choice / cherry examples of certain cards (some no doubt altered...) without regard to the high "book" prices. Not saying they always got the higher price, but I know of more than a few that occasionally did.

[jchcollins]

At a very high level:

* The scandal has proven some of our worst fears about TPG's true - that in many cases they were not up to the task of knowing what they should know about how to detect altered cards, that in many cases they were at least susceptible to improper influence from their largest customers, and that in many cases the "professional" in professional grading was just a marketing term.

At it's best, professional grading at first helped to consolidate standards and make it easier to buy a card in a certain "range" sight unseen with a greater chance that the card you received in the mail would be somewhat what you expected that you had ordered. But at a foundation level, even when done correctly, the model for professional grading which exists today reaches a point of inconsistency due to the subjectivity inherent in the process which has not been able to be overcome. At some point, the precision of professional grading is fraud, because it's been proven anew what many knew all along: There is no magic. It's just an opinion. It's just one opinion. And the standard for that opinion may be different today than it was yesterday on the same card, or even one like it that comes into their queue a mere 5 minutes later.

The collector's own opinion and evaluation of the authenticity and condition of the piece in question is in the end what really matters, and what we have to get back to with additional eduction.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

At a very high level:

* The scandal has proven some of our worst fears about TPG's true - that in many cases they were not up to the task of knowing what they should know about how to detect altered cards, that in many cases they were at least susceptible to improper influence from their largest customers, and that in many cases the "professional" in professional grading was just a marketing term.

At it's best, professional grading at first helped to consolidate standards and make it easier to buy a card in a certain "range" sight unseen with a greater chance that the card you received in the mail would be somewhat what you expected that you had ordered. But at a foundation level, even when done correctly, the model for professional grading which exists today reaches a point of inconsistency due to the subjectivity inherent in the process which has not been able to be overcome. At some point, the precision of professional grading is fraud, because it's been proven anew what many knew all along: There is no magic. It's just an opinion. It's just one opinion. And the standard for that opinion may be different today than it was yesterday on the same card, or even one like it that comes into their queue a mere 5 minutes later.

The collector's own opinion and evaluation of the authenticity and condition of the piece in question is in the end what really matters, and what we have to get back to with additional eduction.

Great points... especially that last paragraph.

I will never submit anything to PSA, but have bought cards that reside in PSA holders (just because they were in the condition I was seeking and priced right). It had absolutely nothing to do with the inconsequential PSA slab.

Bottom line is to trust your own eye, seek out the best example within your budget, and give very little (if any) credence to their arbitrarily assigned number.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

To me the biggest issue in this scandal is that PSA had been told repeatedly in the distant past (10+ years ago), that they had a significant problem of grading and slabbing altered cards and now fast forward to 2019 and obviously nothing adequate was done to fix the problem. I won't speculate if this massive mess on PSA's part was deliberate indifference, willfully intentional or they made an earnest attempt, but can't detect alterations to save their lives. Regardless, they need to be held accountable and explain why this happened in light of the prior notification.

So now, there's no way that PSA could afford to buy back all of the doctored cards in PSA holders that are now out there in circulation and furthermore, the top sets in the vintage PSA Registeries are likely significantly tainted with bad cards thus turning the entire registry competition into an embarrassing sham.

[ejharrington]

In an nutshell, PSA is an example of a company that grew faster than it could effectively manage. It can still recover as many successful companies have had growing pains but had management that was able to adapt and overcome the problems associated with fast growth.

However, if they don't adjust, their reputation may be ruined and they could go bankrupt settling warranty claims. The following two risk factors are included in their Annual Report among all the boilerplate risk factors.

I hope the Board of Directors makes the right decisions for the sake of shareholders, card holders, and the hobby generally...




Damage to our reputation could have a material adverse effect on our business, financial condition and results of operations.We have developed a reputation as one of the leading third party providers of collectibles authentication and grading
services, as well as related services, as a result of a number of factors including, we believe, the rigorousness and consistency of our
grading standards and the integrity of our grading processes, which enables us to provide warranty protection to our customers, our
knowledge of the collectibles markets in which we operate, and innovative programs and services that we have developed and are
able to offer to our customers, including the Collectors Club, our Set Registry Programs and our Certified Coin Exchange dealerto-
dealer Internet bid-ask market. As a result, our continued success is heavily dependent on our maintaining that reputation
among collectibles dealers and collectors. Failures or errors in authentication or grading processes, such as inconsistent application
of grading standards or incidents that put the integrity of those processes into question, could significantly impair our reputation
in the marketplace which, in turn, could lead to a loss of customer confidence and a decrease in the demand for our services and,
therefore, could have a material adverse effect on our business, financial condition and results of operations.


We could suffer losses on authentication and grading warranties.In general, we issue an authenticity or grading warranty for coins and trading cards that we authenticate or grade. Those
warranties provide that:
▪ if a coin or trading card that we authenticated and sealed in one of our tamper-evident plastic holders are later
determined by us not to have been genuine, we would have to purchase the collectible at its current market value had
it been genuine; or
▪ if a coin or trading card that we graded and sealed in one of our tamper-evident plastic holders later receives a lower
grade upon resubmission to us for grading, we would be obligated either to purchase the collectible at the market
value at its original assigned grade or to pay the difference between that value as compared to the value at the lower
grade.
We have no insurance coverage for claims made under these warranties, and therefore we maintain reserves for such
warranty claims based on historical experience. However, there is no assurance that these warranty reserves will prove to be
adequate, and as we expand our services in overseas markets, we may incur higher warranty claims than we have experienced in
the past. If our warranty reserves prove to be inadequate, our gross margin and operating results could be harmed. As a result, we
monitor the adequacy of our warranty reserves on an ongoing basis.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by "back in the day", but I would not agree with this statement. Even back in the late 80's, when Beckett was king - it was understood that there was a high column and a low column, and explicitly stated that for year ranges in their price guides, some cards that were truly above "NM" condition could command higher prices than even the "high" column reported. I saw dealers back then do that frequently with choice / cherry examples of certain cards (some no doubt altered...) without regard to the high "book" prices. Not saying they always got the higher price, but I know of more than a few that occasionally did.

I still remember the 2 cards I bought at a card show that were "superior examples"...I paid 350.00 for a '61 Aaron (years later graded SGC 92) the "Beckett" was like 120-160 in NM condition. That same day, I bought a 1950 Bowman Campanella for 600.00 (later graded PSA 9) that booked for 150-190 in NM condition.
Oddly, neither of those cards has moved much in raw NM form in the past 30 years since I bought 'em!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

All just opinions.

[Exhibitman]

In a nutshell:

This is a card:



This is grading a card:



Any questions?

[SAllen2556]

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

To me the biggest issue in this scandal is that PSA had been told repeatedly in the distant past (10+ years ago), that they had a significant problem of grading and slabbing altered cards and now fast forward to 2019 and obviously nothing adequate was done to fix the problem. I won't speculate if this massive mess on PSA's part was deliberate indifference, willfully intentional or they made an earnest attempt, but can't detect alterations to save their lives. Regardless, they need to be held accountable and explain why this happened in light of the prior notification.

So now, there's no way that PSA could afford to buy back all of the doctored cards in PSA holders that are now out there in circulation and furthermore, the top sets in the vintage PSA Registeries are likely significantly tainted with bad cards thus turning the entire registry competition into an embarrassing sham.

what kind of rational man even gives 2 flying F's about the registry? I think it is for complete blithering morons, IMHO.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

I'm a "millionaire class" collector. You know what I think.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I'm a "millionaire class" collector. You know what I think.

C'mon, Chuck, we know you have no class...

I kid you my friend.

[Ben Yourg]

So,let's say I buy a Raw card,and it's worth a few dollars.It looks
real nice,and the same under magnification.
Now,I know it will make a better presentation,and will be
protected better,if I have it graded.
If the grade is way different,than my opinion,would I regrade,
or break it out,and leave it raw?
After hearing opinions here, on grading companies,raw seems best.
I've known a top notch Dealer-Collector,for years.And,he has never
liked graded cards.And refuses,to deal with them.
He does not like to have someone ,sometimes,say he is wrong?
And then that card is sort of "Branded",by perhaps a young
person,who has worked,grading cards 6 months.
So,if you're looking at the card,and in your opinion it's VG/EX,
it's VG/EX.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

I’m not sure they care tbh.

There is one collector that got taken, and frankly embarrassed, on a few of the more high profile outed cards. He continues to acquirer, and post on forums high end graded cards. A few of the modern ones he buys are known to be targets of trimmers and look ridiculously short. I also suspect he is still buying from PWCC, where two of the more high profile cards came from, and the dealer was part of the deception.

I think for a lot of these high end collectors it’s about having and showing off the “best” stuff. Such a strange hobby.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

C'mon, Chuck, we know you have no class...

I kid you my friend.

So true...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by japhi

I’m not sure they care tbh.


I think for a lot of these high end collectors it’s about having and showing off the “best” stuff. Such a strange hobby.

so his 'best' stuff is trimmed...not exactly best stuff to me

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by japhi

I’m not sure they care tbh.

There is one collector that got taken, and frankly embarrassed, on a few of the more high profile outed cards. He continues to acquirer, and post on forums high end graded cards. A few of the modern ones he buys are known to be targets of trimmers and look ridiculously short. I also suspect he is still buying from PWCC, where two of the more high profile cards came from, and the dealer was part of the deception.

I think for a lot of these high end collectors it’s about having and showing off the “best” stuff. Such a strange hobby.

I don't know if it is the same person but I have seen one buyer(sucker/mark/moron) that has done the same. Not only did they let the scammers line up and sell him expensive altered cards. He still sticks up for the shady sellers. Like they say it takes all kinds.

[KLSDAD]

Could somebody nutshell a who's who? Both here and (mainly) at Blowout alot of the conversation assumes that everyone is up on all the players.

Just a quick summary like...

Grading companies and each's main offenses
Grading company execs/management in the spotlight
Grading company whistleblowers
Offline auction companies and execs
Online auction companies/screennames
Sellers linked to shady auction companies
Alleged trimmers
Blowout whitleblowers

Hmmm....looks like alot of work. Then I see a gazillion posts on message boards (mainly at Blowout) and think that maybe some effort could be redirected.

[swarmee]

PSA (Joe Orlando / Steve Sloan): Either horribly incompetent at detecting alterations or partially incompetent and partially complicit in fraud, giving favored submitters higher grades than regular Joes or passing through altered cards as unaltered to keep the submissions rolling in.
BGS: Incompetent at detecting trimming on modern cards; have been giving favored submitters like Leaf and Joe Clemons (former BGS employee) an impossible number of BGS 10 (Pristines and Black Labels with all 4 BGS 10 subgrades). These sell for like 5x what a Gem Mint 9.5 card sells for on the same modern cards.
SGC: Graded some very high value trimmed or recolored cards with numbers at the National Convention (like $50K each) that were outed, plus were heavily used by OCSI to grade trimmed cards. Not used as often on modern since their resale value is much lower than PSA or BGS. Also closed their autograph authentication wing after they agreed with JSA that 12 Sharpie signed T206 cards were outed as counterfeits and slabbed them as Authentic. Those sold for thousands apiece.

As of now, not many internal whistleblowers, but many high submitters who attended the BGS or PSA annual meetings have been outed as card alterers.

Small Traditions is probably the biggest auctionhouse who have been outed as trimming the heck out of cards, but it's highly likely there are others. Paper trails are smaller with auctionhouses because of their secret consignors and kind of invisible employees.

PWCC (Brent Huigens) is well-known already.

COMC had some former employees accused of trimming and selling through COMC, and some of their largest sellers were outed as trimmers. COMC is trying to buy back the cards that have been outed and their owner Tim Getsch has promised to write some code to detect trimming on cards in their scans. Refunds are super slow going since they only have a small team working the refunds, and that same team is supposedly also working their rollout of eBay auctions.

Check the www.sportscardradio.com site to see many of the accusers trimmers and other scammers currently operating in the hobby.

[Bram99]

Hello,

Has anyone created a document version (excel or Word possibly) of all of the suspect altered/trimmed cards from the various Blowout forum and other listings? It seems extremely difficult to wade through all of these forum pages to find such a listing. I am looking for something easily searchable.

Tony

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Hello,

Has anyone created a document version (excel or Word possibly) of all of the suspect altered/trimmed cards from the various Blowout forum and other listings? It seems extremely difficult to wade through all of these forum pages to find such a listing. I am looking for something easily searchable.

Tony

Any list you get will not be accurate unless PSA Cert# 00000001 is on the list.

[perezfan]

Probably far too many to keep track of, at this point. Someone would need to invest hundreds of hours, to properly log them all.

You really have to exercise your own due diligence.

[swarmee]

I mean, you could do a Google search like "site:blowoutforums.com psa cert xxxxxxxxx" or use site:net54baseball.com instead and find the majority of the outed cards. Even using the first 5-6 numbers of the cert number would get you down to checking cards within the submission.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by seff

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

Really what you are saying is that you don't care that your cards are altered as long as somebody will grade them eventually (at least three submissions for each of the cards mentioned in your post).

When you sell those two cards your line will be "graded by SGC" with no mention of the two rejections.

YOU are what is wrong with what many of us still consider a hobby.

I don't know you, but I don't like you.

Doug "don't take it personally, I don't like very many people" Goodman

[jbsports33]

Phil,

Just keep it simple, be smart about your buying and keep up with the news enough to make the right moves buying cards. Do not let bad apples in the hobby keep you from your enjoyment of collecting. Good Luck!

Net54 and https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/ are great resources to keep you up to date!

Jimmy