Done buying high end cards

[BigBeerGut]

Me really can not beleive the ca$h-ola you guys spend on these cards! I will be on the beach watching yall surf it up I guess!

MD

[jchcollins]

I do mostly postwar and am not able to spend anything approaching a lot even there, but the scandal has made me look back fondly at childhood days when collecting old cards was not only about evaluating minuscule differences between slabs and numbers on flips. Back then, say if there was a Willie Mays card from the 1950's in a shop - it was simply cool that it was an old card. Condition issues were a given; for my own collection I tried to avoid cards with major creases, but that was about it. Dinged corners and off-centered cards didn't make much difference.

Since then and the advent of professional grading, I have seen grading and condition as kind of a "sub-hobby" of mine - because it was something that I had been interested in even as a teenager before the PSA days - how do you really "accurately" grade a card even within certain tolerances - the fact that EX cards should not have creases, NM should be centered better than xx/xx, those kinds of things. So now what I feel like is that this scandal has cast even more confusion and doubt over the accepted grades because of what the doctors have done. There is discussion about trashing the 1-10 system in it's entirety and just going back to some version of Authentic only, or "Authentic - Nice Card" without so much detail and minutiae put into the system of half-points. How do folks feel about this? On the surface this would seem a hard system to buck quickly - just looking at how crazy detailed things got over in the coin hobby and their slabbing - which of course led to it starting here in ours.

Bottom line I will continue to find grading interesting - and I enjoy educating new collectors here and there on forums like this and maybe more so on social media as to the nuances of condition. It does feel like the PWCC mess has cast quite a shadow over even the legit practice of card grading - as it evolved in the hobby from the 1970's on to today.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by orly57

I would normally say that this comment is out of line, but since it comes from Kevin Mize, I will just say it’s badly off centered.

Another wannabe.... Good luck pal, maybe you and R0nn13 L3hm@n can go out to dinner tonight....

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I do mostly postwar and am not able to spend anything approaching a lot even there, but the scandal has made me look back fondly at childhood days when collecting old cards was not only about evaluating minuscule differences between slabs and numbers on flips. Back then, say if there was a Willie Mays card from the 1950's in a shop - it was simply cool that it was an old card. Condition issues were a given; for my own collection I tried to avoid cards with major creases, but that was about it. Dinged corners and off-centered cards didn't make much difference.

Since then and the advent of professional grading, I have seen grading and condition as kind of a "sub-hobby" of mine - because it was something that I had been interested in even as a teenager before the PSA days - how do you really "accurately" grade a card even within certain tolerances - the fact that EX cards should not have creases, NM should be centered better than xx/xx, those kinds of things. So now what I feel like is that this scandal has cast even more confusion and doubt over the accepted grades because of what the doctors have done. There is discussion about trashing the 1-10 system in it's entirety and just going back to some version of Authentic only, or "Authentic - Nice Card" without so much detail and minutiae put into the system of half-points. How do folks feel about this? On the surface this would seem a hard system to buck quickly - just looking at how crazy detailed things got over in the coin hobby and their slabbing - which of course led to it starting here in ours.

Bottom line I will continue to find grading interesting - and I enjoy educating new collectors here and there on forums like this and maybe more so on social media as to the nuances of condition. It does feel like the PWCC mess has cast quite a shadow over even the legit practice of card grading - as it evolved in the hobby from the 1970's on to today.

Well said, John.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Well said, John.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Long time, Robert. Hope you are doing well!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Probably been said before, but I don't understand the logic of the point of the thread. I'm not a seller of high-end cards for the most part so this isn't self-serving, but didn't we get into this hobby because we love cards, examining cards, learning about cards etc? Why have we abdicated so much of the work we used to do before a purchase? Is it trust in Auction Houses and TPG's or just laziness? I got burnt plenty of times before TPG's and each time I learned something new. While we go after the criminals and their abbetors and enablers (which I whole-heartedly support) let's use this experience like we would've in the pre-TPG days and learn from it in order to protect ourselves.

Steve you know plenty about cards. I'm sure with due diligence you could protect yourself on a high-end purchase.

I am just as frustrated with the situation as anyone. Can you imagine being the owner of a small auction house that is trying to grow in the midst of this? That being said I have increased my vigilance even on graded cards before they go into one of my sales. I am still struggling with how to treat altered cards. Not sure if I want to sell them even with full disclosure as I don't know what the next person is going to do with them. We already destroy fake autographs (with consignors permission) but doing that with cards doesn't seem like the right answer.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Probably been said before, but I don't understand the logic of the point of the thread. I'm not a seller of high-end cards for the most part so this isn't self-serving, but didn't we get into this hobby because we love cards, examining cards, learning about cards etc? Why have we abdicated so much of the work we used to do before a purchase? Is it trust in Auction Houses and TPG's or just laziness? I got burnt plenty of times before TPG's and each time I learned something new.

Scott,

I can’t answer for the OP, but I did get into the hobby because I do love (well...really like a lot) cards. Personally though I didn’t get into the hobby because I like “examining cards” or really anything else other than I like the player/s I collect and cardboard was cool. I know I didn’t do much, as you stated, conducted “work” before the purchase. Maybe I’m lazy, but I thought it was a hobby and not a job. At this point I really don’t trust the grading companies, auction houses, or some of these resellers since the almighty dollar seems to be supreme. I’m sure I’ll begin to start to somewhat trust certain auction houses, but will be gradual. I won’t be purchasing high grade cards though. The thing you said that got me is that you’ve been burned plenty of times and learned from it; I don’t want to get burned at all.

[Johnny630]

The key is to find a happy medium.....If you can tolerate knowing that the industry is full of scum bags and frauds while still having fun and collecting what you enjoy while having fun that’s all that matters.

Nothing will ever change to completely get rid of the garbage, it will always be there because this is fueled by money and greed. Waymore people are in this now to make money not for a hobby

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by irv

Very nice!

Here's a few of mine. Some were given to me by my father and some I purchased.

Beautiful!

[irv]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Beautiful!

Thanks, Joe!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Scott,

I can’t answer for the OP, but I did get into the hobby because I do love (well...really like a lot) cards. Personally though I didn’t get into the hobby because I like “examining cards” or really anything else other than I like the player/s I collect and cardboard was cool. I know I didn’t do much, as you stated, conducted “work” before the purchase. Maybe I’m lazy, but I thought it was a hobby and not a job. At this point I really don’t trust the grading companies, auction houses, or some of these resellers since the almighty dollar seems to be supreme. I’m sure I’ll begin to start to somewhat trust certain auction houses, but will be gradual. I won’t be purchasing high grade cards though. The thing you said that got me is that you’ve been burned plenty of time and learned from it; I don’t want to get burned at all.

I can appreciate that. It's hard for me to walk a mile in another man's moccasins sometimes.

I love the knowledge and learning about the cards themselves, not everyone is the same. That being said, if you are the kind of guy who collects because he loves the game and the history and old bits of cardboard, then, to me, it doesn't make sense to be in the high-end market in the first place. If you ARE in the high end market then the monetary value both present and future IS important to you. I feel it's incumbent upon the buyer of such items to be able to rely on themselves.

I wouldn't call high-end buyers who don't know their stuff lazy, just naive in believing they can trust anyone 100%. Even reputable people and companies make mistakes, though they tend to be the ones who fix their mistakes quickly!

I guess how I feel is, if you're in the high end market, unless you won the lottery or inherited all your money, odds are you're fairly smart. With the application of that intelligence to the cards you buy, you should still be reasonably safe, just don't abdicate your decision making abilities to a third party.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I love the knowledge and learning about the cards themselves, not everyone is the same. That being said, if you are the kind of guy who collects because he loves the game and the history and old bits of cardboard, then, to me, it doesn't make sense to be in the high-end market in the first place. If you ARE in the high end market then the monetary value both present and future IS important to you. I feel it's incumbent upon the buyer of such items to be able to rely on themselves.

I wouldn't call high-end buyers who don't know their stuff lazy, just naive in believing they can trust anyone 100%. Even reputable people and companies make mistakes, though they tend to be the ones who fix their mistakes quickly!

I guess how I feel is, if you're in the high end market, unless you won the lottery or inherited all your money, odds are you're fairly smart. With the application of that intelligence to the cards you buy, you should still be reasonably safe, just don't abdicate your decision making abilities to a third party.

Scott,

Thanks for the response. Kinda lets me know what your outlook is on card collecting as well as what’s going on currently in the hobby. It probably would help to give a bit of a background of what type of collector I am. Currently I’m basically a single player collector as well pick up Orioles memorabilia. I have collected cards in the past, but now I’ve narrowed my focused on those type items (basically because I can’t afford everything).

I do really like learning about cards and the different oddball issues that are out there, but what I was referring to is I really don’t desire to gain knowledge on whether a card has been trimmed, re-colored, corners rebuilt, some type of alterations, re-glossing, etc. Really didn’t think at all about that when purchasing a graded card. A raw card I looked for some of those type of things, but not graded; maybe I was naive. Basically looked at centering, registration, etc. on the card.

Now I think there’s probably a difference in what we’re referring to high end and high grade. I’ve been collecting Brooks Robinson for quite a while now and several years ago I thought it would be cool to pick up some higher grade cards. Most of the cards I had in my collection were probably EX or EXMT; in that range (probably not centered well either...). Didn’t think much about centering when I was young or even when I started getting back in the hobby. Several of the people, likely here on Net54, messed with my mind and now I typically see centering issues first thing (wish I didn’t listen!). Anyway, I was just wanting to add some higher grade cards (7-9 in my thinking is higher end). So, I wasn’t doing it for an investment, but to just have a nicer card in my collection. I sure wouldn’t like it if I spent a higher amount for these cards and find out they are altered; no better than what I had originally.

By the way... I hope to pick up a few pics in the auction!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'm not a high grade guy myself. As a dealer before I took over the auction I specialized in collector-grade to maybe VG/EX in prewar stuff. EX-NM in 50's and 60's and was focused on helping people complete whatever they were working on, sets, team sets, player runs, etc...

Even now as an auction house I don't think it's in my best interest to try and compete with the companies that can get the PSA 7 and 8 t206's on consignment. If you look at last year's pre-war auction it was largely Poor - VG. Cards that, to me, can be enjoyed without losing too much sleep over them. This year's will be similar in terms of grade (shameless plug it starts on October 2nd!)

If I were ever to offer high grade items in that auction I would be sure to vet them as thoroughly as humanly possible. I WANT people to feel like they can just blindly trust my auctions, even while I would advise against it on principal.

For example I had two and sometimes three guys who know more about photos than me look at my current auction because I didn't want to screw up identifying anything in a corner of the collecting world about which I am only learning. I did everything I could to make sure there were no mistakes. Yet it wouldn't blow my mind if somehow I still got something wrong.

I appreciate good dialogue and good luck in tonight's auction!

[Card Tech710]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

until something changes.

I'm not going to be the next guy to find out that the PSA 10 he paid $35,000 for was actually a PSA 7 last year and sold somewhere for $900. Nah. Not going there. Not going to be me. And frankly I don't have enough hours or the desire to do an archeological dive every time I want to buy a card.

Here's an example of what I THOUGHT was a 68' Ryan RC in a PSA
8 Turns out it was switched with an inferior Ryan RC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmk_xBp2aq4&t=9s

[bxb]

Originally Posted by Card Tech710

Here's an example of what I THOUGHT was a 68' Ryan RC in a PSA
8 Turns out it was switched with an inferior Ryan RC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmk_xBp2aq4&t=9s

Well, the good news is PSA detected the slab alteration.

Reading all these threads, seems that expert trimming is more of a problem for them to detect.

[Card Tech710]

@BXB, yea I was lucky cause I held onto the card for a couple months, sent it to PSA to get re-holdered and they took a couple weeks upon receipt to get back to me.

But luckily PSA had instances of the ole switcheroo happening to other customers so they provided me with all the documents to dispute the original seller if it came to that.

Let's say that I now double & triple check any slabs that I get for case alterations