1948 Leaf Satchel Paige - blank back - on eBay....

[murphy8276]

Originally Posted by bnorth

If you truly believe this why didn't/don't you buy all his cards and resell them?

Not deep enough pockets to buy everything. I am actually hurting myself by posting that grading and/or sending to an auction house are the only answers, but it is what it is. If you are in the same boat as I, I get why "we" would want him to continue down the path he has.

If this collection would have been graded or given to an auction house it would have been equal to a "find" and we would have had a chance to see the collection of the gentleman as a whole before it was dissected. I guess I am a romantic.

[CW]

Originally Posted by PiratesWS1979

Please don’t use the term “ignorance” to a seller with 17K+ feedback.

I realize I'm sticking my nose into a side discussion here, but after briefly looking at a few pages of this seller's feedback, it doesn't appear much of the 17K was from sportscard sales.

Regarding the choice to sell raw:

One other possible negative of choosing to sell these cards raw is you may have to deal with a few more returns or unhappy customers.

Some collectors may receive the cards and find a flaw that wasn't visible in the scan. While this issue could still exist with graded cards, it is minimized compared to selling raw. The seller also has to hope the buyer is honest and returns the original card (without any additional damage to the card as well).

I guess each method has it's positives and negatives, and each seller has to weigh them on their own. Raw? Graded? Ebay or auction house?

[Meenman]

This isn't my first rodeo. This is my business. I've been selling on eBay for a long time. Some of these cards that I have sold were in the top 10 of graded cards. I have the record of selling a boy scout item for on eBay for 18000.00. I've sold cards before coins stamps glass pottery artwork gold silver rugs jewelry bicycles, ect. On and off ebay. I am not a specialist on cards but I'm not a fool. I don't have the passion like some of you have. But I can understand it by the prices I'm getting from ungraded cards. I did my homework before I sold one card. Graded or ungraded. I chose ungraded. I think I represent myself well.I understand what you are saying about grading and auction. I made the choice for me and my situation. No regrets. And I still have the blank back Paige.TIt will be graded.The reason that I have an eBay business is for item like these. I cam compete with anyone. And I don't really trust auction houses. I've had many bad experiences with them. I'm not sitting hete in ignorant bliss. Far from it.

[murphy8276]

Originally Posted by Meenman

This isn't my first rodeo. This is my business. I've been selling on eBay for a long time. Some of these cards that I have sold were in the top 10 of graded cards. I have the record of selling a boy scout item for on eBay for 18000.00. I've sold cards before coins stamps glass pottery artwork gold silver rugs jewelry bicycles, ect. On and off ebay. I am not a specialist on cards but I'm not a fool. I don't have the passion like some of you have. But I can understand it by the prices I'm getting from ungraded cards. I did my homework before I sold one card. Graded or ungraded. I chose ungraded. I think I represent myself well.I understand what you are saying about grading and auction. I made the choice for me and my situation. No regrets. And I still have the blank back Paige.TIt will be graded.The reason that I have an eBay business is for item like these. I cam compete with anyone. And I don't really trust auction houses. I've had many bad experiences with them. I'm not sitting hete in ignorant bliss. Far from it.

Even though a few of your statements will be misunderstood by some of the forum members as a possible "story", I personally believe you and my bidding has proven that. I will take back the ignorance is bliss comment and just try to level with you since you do agree your normal market is not in cards.

Simply put, if you think it is a better choice to grade the Paige to maximize value, you have already given yourself advice for the majority of the cards. Especially if you have more of the same to follow. I cannot be more straight forward. GL

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Meenman

This isn't my first rodeo. This is my business. I've been selling on eBay for a long time. Some of these cards that I have sold were in the top 10 of graded cards. I have the record of selling a boy scout item for on eBay for 18000.00. I've sold cards before coins stamps glass pottery artwork gold silver rugs jewelry bicycles, ect. On and off ebay. I am not a specialist on cards but I'm not a fool. I don't have the passion like some of you have. But I can understand it by the prices I'm getting from ungraded cards. I did my homework before I sold one card. Graded or ungraded. I chose ungraded. I think I represent myself well.I understand what you are saying about grading and auction. I made the choice for me and my situation. No regrets. And I still have the blank back Paige.TIt will be graded.The reason that I have an eBay business is for item like these. I cam compete with anyone. And I don't really trust auction houses. I've had many bad experiences with them. I'm not sitting hete in ignorant bliss. Far from it.

I totally agree with what you are doing...and you in no way need to justify your actions here. Descriptions are pretty honest...cards are obviously authentic. Personally as a lifelong collector/passionate old cardboard enthusiast I refuse to play the BS PSA waiting/resubmit game. As you say you're doing pretty well selling raw and it will be interesting to see how the Paige does eventually.

[Scocs]

I just don’t understand why the card went from $30,000 to $100,000 in the middle of the auction. That seems disingenuous...

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Scocs

I just don’t understand why the card went from $30,000 to $100,000 in the middle of the auction. That seems disingenuous...

I am calling BS on the seller. The higher bidders on all his higher $ cards have several bid retractions each. Just enough to stay under and not draw attention. He also has canceled transactions after auctions closed and relisted for a higher price. This is just since the thread started and he found out what he really has. The 52 Bowman Mantle is a grade 3 at best and somehow is selling in the 4-5 range ungraded? 51 Bowman Mays sells for nearly 2K more than the other one he had just sold a few days before the thread in the same condition. I do not think this guy is honest and I think he is or people he knows is shilling for him. Crucify me if you want guys but I think digging through completed listings and feedback has told me enough to stay away

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

I am calling BS on the seller. The higher bidders on all his higher $ cards have several bid retractions each. Just enough to stay under and not draw attention. He also has canceled transactions after auctions closed and relisted for a higher price. This is just since the thread started and he found out what he really has. The 52 Bowman Mantle is a grade 3 at best and somehow is selling in the 4-5 range ungraded? 51 Bowman Mays sells for nearly 2K more than the other one he had just sold a few days before the thread in the same condition. I do not think this guy is honest and I think he is or people he knows is shilling for him. Crucify me if you want guys but I think digging through completed listings and feedback has told me enough to stay away

Makes sense. I don't care how "old skool" you are. If you want to get the best return on a high $ card, you're gonna get it graded

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

I am calling BS on the seller. The higher bidders on all his higher $ cards have several bid retractions each. Just enough to stay under and not draw attention. He also has canceled transactions after auctions closed and relisted for a higher price. This is just since the thread started and he found out what he really has. The 52 Bowman Mantle is a grade 3 at best and somehow is selling in the 4-5 range ungraded? 51 Bowman Mays sells for nearly 2K more than the other one he had just sold a few days before the thread in the same condition. I do not think this guy is honest and I think he is or people he knows is shilling for him. Crucify me if you want guys but I think digging through completed listings and feedback has told me enough to stay away

This is my impression as well from the sold listings and his responses, without looking up bid or retraction history. Something seems off.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I totally agree with what you are doing...and you in no way need to justify your actions here. Descriptions are pretty honest...cards are obviously authentic. Personally as a lifelong collector/passionate old cardboard enthusiast I refuse to play the BS PSA waiting/resubmit game. As you say you're doing pretty well selling raw and it will be interesting to see how the Paige does eventually.

Couldn't agree more.

[JeremyW]

If this thread/post would've went live a week ago he'd be doing even better.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This is my impression as well from the sold listings and his responses, without looking up bid or retraction history. Something seems off.

There were a lot of bid retractions on a few things I saw but I think the story on these is correct. If some of the cards were in the 6+ range, technically, then money could have been left on the table. Like I think I said, I was outbid (my snipe didn't take) on 1 of the cards.

[T205 GB]

The last Mays card that I watched ended about 2K lower. I would say the last card is just a tad rougher but not $2000 less rougher.

I have no doubt about the sellers backstory. Never brought that into question for the record.

[Zact]

Something is definitely up with this persons auctions. I am following the 50 Bowman Berra which has two bent corners- the card was up to over $300 yesterday which does not make sense - it is a 5 at best. Now it’s at $57 - bidder u***g retracted his bid of $350, this bidder has a 50% bid history with the seller. For fun I put an opening bid on a newly listed card, 2 minutes later outbid by this bidder u**g(3402) , and again. The second account has bids on all the cards that I looked at - appears to be strong possibility of a shill account.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

There were a lot of bid retractions on a few things I saw but I think the story on these is correct. If some of the cards were in the 6+ range, technically, then money could have been left on the table. Like I think I said, I was outbid (my snipe didn't take) on 1 of the cards.

You may be right but I haven't changed my opinion. The other comments regarding bid retractions don't surprise me. I will be staying away from this seller. Best of luck to anyone who decides to take a shot.

[Peter_Spaeth]

a***u(3402) seems to be bidding on most or all of his cards both FB and BB.

[Meenman]

You are slandering my business, name and reputation. That is against the law. Bring your evidence that I am shill bidding or stop slandering my name. There is no evidence because there is nothing shady going on.
If you do not stop I will take legal actions against you. I don't know anyone bidding on my items or have any control of how the bid. You are accusing me and my customers on flimsy evidence made up in your own mind. I run an honest business. Stop you have no right to slander me.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Meenman

You are slandering my business, name and reputation. That is against the law. Bring your evidence that I am shill bidding or stop slandering my name. There is no evidence because there is nothing shady going on.
If you do not stop I will take legal actions against you. I don't know anyone bidding on my items or have any control of how the bid. You are accusing me and my customers on flimsy evidence made up in your own mind. I run an honest business. Stop you have no right to slander me.

Block the bid retractor. I block ALL of mine. That one simple act could save you a ton. Unless of course, there is something nefarious going on.

[bobbyw8469]

PS - Looking back at the auctions, on every card that had a reasonable opening bid, bidder #3402 is the high bidder. I don't mean no harm, but that appears shady. For that reason, I will not be participating in these auctions. Bidder #3402 should have been blocked with the retraction of $350 for a card that is worth nowhere near that. He is compromising all of your auctions.

[Zact]

Bidder #3402 also won multiple card auctions. Looks like a 53 Paige , 52 feller 53 Bowman Campanella. Did this bidder complete the sale? Did you shipthe items to this individual?

[Zact]

Bidder #3402 with string bids in neat $25 50 increments on the active 1953 Paige which is bent in half- this bidder should be blocked on the basis of string bidding and retractions

[bobbyw8469]

Christopher, are you saying #3402 has already won the 1953 Paige and it is up for auction again with #3402 as the high bidder yet again?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Meenman

You are slandering my business, name and reputation. That is against the law. Bring your evidence that I am shill bidding or stop slandering my name. There is no evidence because there is nothing shady going on.
If you do not stop I will take legal actions against you. I don't know anyone bidding on my items or have any control of how the bid. You are accusing me and my customers on flimsy evidence made up in your own mind. I run an honest business. Stop you have no right to slander me.

How could anyone slander your name when it's not been exposed yet, Aun.dra STU.BBS. There is a rule concerning names and it's at the top of every page. To me it also looks like you have some shady bidders. No need to sue, it's the truth.

[Meenman]

All the winning bidders have paid for their cards and they have been shipped.
At first my cards weren't getting enough money because they weren't graded. Now they are selling for to much. Don't bid on my auctions, they are doing just fine without you
Just don't slander me.The bottom line is that they are good cards and some people want them and have paid for them. Supply and demand.

[Zact]

Bobby is a different Paige- was noting the string bidding to the top on the same bidder who retracted on the 50 Berra- they already “won” a 53 Paige for $370

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Meenman

All the winning bidders have paid for their cards and they have been shipped.
At first my cards weren't getting enough money because they weren't graded. Now they are selling for to much. Don't bid on my auctions, they are doing just fine without you
Just don't slander me.The bottom line is that they are good cards and some people want them and have paid for them. Supply and demand.

They might have paid but they are shady. I just went and looked at the very first card I found of yours listed. It's a 1950 Bowman Sammy Baugh. Here is your top bidder's history below..:See those retractions, and how much he has bid with you? That looks shady to me. SHADY SHADY SHADY...now you can sue.


30-Day Summary
Total bids: 427
Items bid on: 138
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 52% Help
Bid retractions: 3
Bid retractions (6 months): 4

.

[Meenman]

Slander is saying that I am shill bidding. Of course it hasn't been exposed yet it's not true. That's the point.To say I am involved in shill bidding and to have no proof of that is against the law. Anyone can accuse someone of anything. But if you accuse them in public without proof and it's not true is unethical and illegal.I am running a honest EBay auction site and I wll defend myself when accused of being dishonest.This is B'S. I have no control of anyone bidding on my auctions. I have been accused of shill bidding and so have some of my bidders. You are slandering multiple people because it's not true. Bring forth the evidence or stop.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Meenman

Slander is saying that I am shill bidding. Of course it hasn't been exposed yet it's not true. That's the point.To say I am involved in shill bidding and to have no proof of that is against the law. Anyone can accuse someone of anything. But if you accuse them in public without proof and it's not true is unethical and illegal.I am running a honest EBay auction site and I wll defend myself when accused of being dishonest.This is B'S. I have no control of anyone bidding on my auctions. I have been accused of shill bidding and so have some of my bidders. You are slandering multiple people because it's not true. Bring forth the evidence or stop.

There are about 500 lawyers on this board. I can pretty much assure you nothing that has been said (at least by me) is actionable. I never said you or anyone shill bid. I am just saying that the bidding pattern of your top bidder, on the card I pointed out, has a SHADY bidding pattern with you. It is the truth.
However you want to take that is up to you but it's a fact. And if I were bidding I would be very careful.

[PiratesWS1979]

Actually, I won the '53 Paige at $380 not the *3402* bidder at $370. It arrived double boxed and extremely well protected. Also if you'd look at the bid history of the early auctions, you would see that bidder too....and wasn't that when everyone was saying they were leaving "money on the table"?

[Zact]

Yes I see that *3402 was the underbidder at $375 on the 53 Paige-take it for what it’s worth- maybe you paid more than you had to

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Zact

Yes I see that *3402 was the underbidder at $375 on the 53 Paige-take it for what it’s worth- maybe you paid more than you had to

Yes, they paid more than they had to. I don't see $380 there. I will look at the bidding history and see what transppired.

[PiratesWS1979]

You could be right, I might have paid a whole $25 more for a nicely centered '53 Paige. The point is there is shill bidding all over eBay as proof by the 100's of threads about it from PWCC to probstein123 to any seller who has a string bidder.

Meenman came on here to explain the Leaf Paige blank back and hopefully took your advice and is having it authenticated. Now you have gone for "leaving money on the table" to he's a shill bidder. After 20 years and 17,000+ feedback, he is just defending himself because I am 99% positive his business has never been abused like this.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PiratesWS1979

You could be right, I might have paid a whole $25 more for a nicely centered '53 Paige. The point is there is shill bidding all over eBay as proof by the 100's of threads about it from PWCC to probstein123 to any seller who has a string bidder.

Meenman came on here to explain the Leaf Paige blank back and hopefully took your advice and is having it authenticated. Now you have gone for "leaving money on the table" to he's a shill bidder. After 20 years and 17,000+ feedback, he is just defending himself because I am 99% positive his business has never been abused like this.

Actually, to me, that is not the point. I don't think the seller is shilling. I just think he probably has some bidders playing games and it looks bad. He could block them to alleviate it. Do we need to do another poll of how many honest people have 4 bid retractions in 6 months? That number would be close to 0.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Leon

Actually, to me, that is not the point. I don't think the seller is shilling. I just think he probably has some bidders playing games and it looks bad. He could block them to alleviate it. Do we need to do another poll of how many honest people have 4 bid retractions in 6 months? That number would be close to 0.

I've never had a bid retraction, and the only auction I never paid for was where I was a victim of a bid retractor within the last hour of an auction, who ironically, another had bid me up to my max and not a penny more. I passed. And technically, if you retract a bid, you are "supposed" to bid the correct amount immediately after the retraction. That seldom happens though.

[Zact]

The integrity of your card auctions is compromised. You need to suspend the bidder u***g (3402). This bidder retracted a bid for $350 on your 1950 Bowman Berra. Then, you allowed him to string bid this card back up to $187.50, a day later, after the retraction. This bidder has demonstrated suspicious activity on multiple items, that violates Ebay TOS, and its your responsibility to take control of your brand.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Zact

The integrity of your card auctions is compromised. You need to suspend the bidder u***g (3402). This bidder retracted a bid for $350 on your 1950 Bowman Berra. Then, you allowed him to string bid this card back up to $187.50, a day later, after the retraction. This bidder has demonstrated suspicious activity on multiple items, that violates Ebay TOS, and its your responsibility to take control of your brand.

100% agreed.....He should have been blocked after the retraction. Now it makes your auction look shady. Not slander. Just the facts.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Meenman

Slander is saying that I am shill bidding. Of course it hasn't been exposed yet it's not true. That's the point.To say I am involved in shill bidding and to have no proof of that is against the law. Anyone can accuse someone of anything. But if you accuse them in public without proof and it's not true is unethical and illegal.I am running a honest EBay auction site and I wll defend myself when accused of being dishonest.This is B'S. I have no control of anyone bidding on my auctions. I have been accused of shill bidding and so have some of my bidders. You are slandering multiple people because it's not true. Bring forth the evidence or stop.

Are you saying the Mays and other cards that have been pointed out by myself and other board members have not been shilled? We have heard this story so many times as a community. I am innocent blah blah blah. Fine then prove it because at this point the evidence is stacked against you.

[bnorth]

It could be OPTION C. Someone sees the chance of a lifetime to get all these raw cards to get graded and make a fortune. They want to chase as many others away as possible. So they start string bidding and making a few bid retractions to be able to buy them even cheaper.

This type of bidding has been discussed on here before with more than one person admitting to doing it.

Just an option. Could also be a non-nefarious bidder. After all we have heard about those also.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Are you saying the Mays and other cards that have been pointed out by myself and other board members have not been shilled? We have heard this story so many times as a community. I am innocent blah blah blah. Fine then prove it because at this point the evidence is stacked against you.

I don't think it's fair to ask someone to prove they didn't do something like this, and in not even sure it's possible with the information Ebay provides. Blocking bidders who retract bids in his auctions would be nice to see though and a sign of good faith.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't think it's fair to ask someone to prove they didn't do something like this, and in not even sure it's possible with the information Ebay provides. Blocking bidders who retract bids in his auctions would be nice to see though and a sign of good faith.

Why not? They want us to prove our findings right?

Also just like other eBay auctioneers previously discussed on this board they would be stupid to block any bidders that help the bottom line unless you can prove 100% who it is, and we know how that works.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Why not? They want us to prove our findings right?

Also just like other eBay auctioneers previously discussed on this board they would be stupid to block any bidders that help the bottom line unless you can prove 100% who it is, and we know how that works.

Bid retractors are usually more trouble than they are worth. Same as non-paying bidders. I have patience for neither......

[JollyElm]

Someone may want to do a web search for "slander vs. libel." Just saying.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

Actually, to me, that is not the point. I don't think the seller is shilling. I just think he probably has some bidders playing games and it looks bad. He could block them to alleviate it. Do we need to do another poll of how many honest people have 4 bid retractions in 6 months? That number would be close to 0.

I've not retracted a bid in 20 years. Funny, that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm not a volume seller by any means but over the years it adds up to close to a couple thousand sales, most of which were auctions. I can't recall a single time a bidder retracted. Rarely, and I mean maybe a couple times, someone has asked me if I would cancel their bid.

And I don't recall ever retracting a bid myself.

[JeremyW]

I've never retracted a bid in my 15+ years on Ebay. I think Ben might be onto something.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Why not? They want us to prove our findings right?

Also just like other eBay auctioneers previously discussed on this board they would be stupid to block any bidders that help the bottom line unless you can prove 100% who it is, and we know how that works.

It's just difficult, if not impossible, for him to prove he's not involved. I agree with your sentiment though and as I mentioned earlier I won't be participating in this seller's auctions.

[Bill77]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Someone may want to do a web search for "slander vs. libel." Just saying.

Peter Parker: Spider-Man wasn't trying to attack the city, he was trying to save it. That's slander.

J. Jonah Jameson: It is not. I resent that. Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel.

That's how I remember the difference.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I get slandered. Libeled. I hear words I never heard in the Bible.

[brianp-beme]

When I hear slander mislabeled I am liable to libel myself.

Brian

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

when i hear slander mislabeled i am liable to libel myself.

Brian

hahaha.