Another Probstein123 black eye

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by esd10

It seems like these big spenders with psa can basically buy the grade they want with little issue.

1.How do you know if the person submitting this card to PSA was a big spender? Did the consignor submit it or did Probstein?
2. In general, what evidence do you have that big spenders get higher grades?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by CW

To anyone surprised or amused by the REA/Probstein comparison:

Both companies are movers of high volumes of cards which are consigned to them by collectors. They may not react the same way, but they provide an identical service, albeit through different venues. They are counterparts. Comparisons will be made. Expectations will be set.

If one of those companies (REA) sets a standard of basic ethical practice in the business, it is not out of the ordinary to think that other auction houses should follow suit when an altered card is brought to their attention (ie. investigating and at least pulling the auction and returning the card to the consignor if the alteration is blatant).

Of course, other auction houses may not follow suit (Probstein, in this instance), but it is neither funny, sad, or an "absolute joke" to make the comparison and expect similar ethical business practices.

I am also not naive enough to think the above will happen, but as a consumer you can expect it. When it doesn't happen, then you complain or criticize which is why this thread was started.

And I just happened to use REA as an example. As another, when Goodwin was alerted about a possibly bad PSA graded '52 Mantle in one of their auctions, they sent it to PSA for review, found it to be a compromised slab, and they pulled the auction.

I hear ya Chuck, I just think there are two camps forming on this issue. Yes REA and Probstein offer the same service but so does McDonalds and Gibsons Steakhouse. I would love if everyone in the hobby had the same standards, but they just don't, who gets to set these "standards"?

AHs ALL operate differently. One major AH n particular provides nuclear scans that are obviously tweaked and played with. Another major AH has a history of paying consignors very late and I have personally called and challenged a couple AHs on the authenticity and questionable alterations of CJs...I was told "who made you an expert" and they were not pulled or examined. One AH had over 20 people contact them about a CJ which wasn't pulled, examined, sent back in or anything...it just sold. What in the hell makes me an expert? Owning 1000 CJs? Spending hours upon hours educating myself? Developing a network of 100 people in the CJ world? Writing an extensive article delving into facts never discussed on the set? None of that makes me an expert, but it does make me trusted my the community. I have no more pull than Joe Schmo.

What separates AHs IMO is what THEY decide to do and how to handle things. People are willing to bid more with REA b/c they have an immense level of integrity and knowledge. You'll see cards go for more there than anywhere else as they set REAL records all the time. This is b/c of their leadership and the fact that they ca do this. REAs knowledge and integrity are unsurpassed in the hobby, end of story.

On the other end people avoid Probstein and PWCC b/c they shill and pull bullshit. They will not stand behind their cards and have been involved in some very questionable ethics. It is their choice what standards they set and they reap the consequences of those standards just like REA.

IMO Probstein is McDonalds...you will get crap. If you want to gamble and you want to take that risk than go ahead and every once in awhile you'll get a cold burger. AT this point of collecting and life the transaction is arguably worth more than the card to me and REA is Gibsons, they will guarantee your satisfaction and Dwyer will take care of you no questions asked.

The argument comes down to this for me:
1. Is the flip a product - absolutely
2. Do all AHs have the same standards - absolutely not
3. Do I get to choose where my money is spent - every day

Its all capitalism baby. Ill take REA all day, every day. Hell, I wont even spend money at the moment as I await their APRIL auction as they have the best stuff and Dwyer will take of me...no questions asked.

I really do enjoy the debate, I am sorry if I offend anyone as it is unintended and I think conversations like this are crucial to evolve our hobby we all love. I respect all of you guys and hope everyone has a great 2018.

[oldjudge]

REA is the only auction house who I have ever seen say that a slabbed card was overgraded. That was Rob, before Brian ever came on board. Rob set the tone. I can recall no other auction house, major or smaller, that has ever done anything similar. Most auctions have minimal descriptions that throw out a few ungrammatical adjectives and say little more than what is on the slab. REA is the exception; Probstein is the rule.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

REA is the only auction house who I have ever seen say that a slabbed card was overgraded. That was Rob, before Brian ever came on board. Rob set the tone. I can recall no other auction house, major or smaller, that has ever done anything similar. Most auctions have minimal descriptions that throw out a few ungrammatical adjectives and say little more than what is on the slab. REA is the exception; Probstein is the rule.

Well said...Do you think Rick Probstein would ever announce a card being over graded?? Let me eat this bar of soap....

[oldjudge]

I think zero chance (or less)

[rp12367]

Auction closed at $6100 w/50 bids. Looks like the winner was willing to take the gamble.

[obcmac]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

AHs ALL operate differently. One major AH n particular provides nuclear scans that are obviously tweaked and played with. Another major AH has a history of paying consignors very late and I have personally called and challenged a couple AHs on the authenticity and questionable alterations of CJs...I was told "who made you an expert" and they were not pulled or examined. One AH had over 20 people contact them about a CJ which wasn't pulled, examined, sent back in or anything...it just sold. What in the hell makes me an expert? Owning 1000 CJs? Spending hours upon hours educating myself? Developing a network of 100 people in the CJ world? Writing an extensive article delving into facts never discussed on the set? None of that makes me an expert, but it does make me trusted my the community. I have no more pull than Joe Schmo.

I would be interested to hear the auction house that disregarded your opinion on the CJ's. Why not post it (again...if I missed it the first time)?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Steve D

For an interesting twist on this, go to the blowoutcards thread and take a look at post #27. It shows the same card (#08/25), that has the same look on the top left back corner/top right front corner. It's graded a BCG 9.5. Again, the referenced corner is exactly the same as the corner on card #01/25!

This would indicate that PSA's original 7 grade on the #01/25 was probably wrong also, as they apparently used that corner as reason for the downgrade. But it apparently is not damage to the corner.....it is simply the card's design.

So, it appears that PSA originally mis-graded #01/25 as a "7". It was later trimmed by someone who also believed the corner was damaged. PSA later ignored the trimming and graded it a "9". Double-screw up by PSA. Also, extremely hilarious that someone trimmed the card, believing as PSA did that the card was damaged, when it actually was not!

Steve

This is correct and my favorite part of the story.

[esd10]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

1.How do you know if the person submitting this card to PSA was a big spender? Did the consignor submit it or did Probstein?
2. In general, what evidence do you have that big spenders get higher grades?

Psa was founded on a lie with the worst kept secret in the hobby the t206 wagner card and you dont think a person who spends tons money with psa like a auction house doesnt get a couple grading bumps for the amount of cash spent and notoriety they receive? I think they do

[Tennis13]

How do you trim a card? With some sort of high tech laser? Or is it like a cutting board sort of thing?

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by esd10

Psa was founded on a lie with the worst kept secret in the hobby the t206 wagner card and you dont think a person who spends tons money with psa like a auction house doesnt get a couple grading bumps for the amount of cash spent and notoriety they receive? I think they do

I can see where this would be an attractive theory, but I have yet to see any proof. When auction houses have had cards I consigned graded, the grades were no different than what I thought I would have gotten had I submitted them myself.
I think it is also safe to say that today PSA is a very different business than it was 25 years ago.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

How do you trim a card? With some sort of high tech laser? Or is it like a cutting board sort of thing?

I don't. Because that would be what I call "bad"


I could probably do a pretty good job of it if I really wanted to, but again, that would be "bad"

I could tell you how, but again, also " bad"

I will say that nearly any method you can use to cut paper probably has been used. And that nearly all will be relatively easy to detect as being trimming.

Don't take it wrong, I'm mostly just having a bit of fun. Lasers and cutting boards have both been used and are pretty easy to tell.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by steve B

I don't. Because that would be what I call "bad"


I could probably do a pretty good job of it if I really wanted to, but again, that would be "bad"

I could tell you how, but again, also " bad"

I will say that nearly any method you can use to cut paper probably has been used. And that nearly all will be relatively easy to detect as being trimming.

Don't take it wrong, I'm mostly just having a bit of fun. Lasers and cutting boards have both been used and are pretty easy to tell.

I was just curious how high-tech it had gotten.....I mean, let's assume lasers are used in surgeries, and to make microchips etc.....like very, very precise. How far off are these "trimmed cards?" i mean, theoretically, could you trim it nanometers to polish up the edges, and still have it be the right size? I presume PSA etc aren't going down to the nanometer -- do they stop at the millimeter? I'm just curious -- just a very theoretical question, because it seems that if there is something "obvious" like this, there exists a spectrum in which something moves from "covert" to "obvious" and I wonder if there is a quantifiable point in which that occurs? Does that make sense?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

I was just curious how high-tech it had gotten.....I mean, let's assume lasers are used in surgeries, and to make microchips etc.....like very, very precise. How far off are these "trimmed cards?" i mean, theoretically, could you trim it nanometers to polish up the edges, and still have it be the right size? I presume PSA etc aren't going down to the nanometer -- do they stop at the millimeter? I'm just curious -- just a very theoretical question, because it seems that if there is something "obvious" like this, there exists a spectrum in which something moves from "covert" to "obvious" and I wonder if there is a quantifiable point in which that occurs? Does that make sense?

Its much more than just size, there are affects from what was used. Lasers weren't used on 1909 and the signs will tell you that. Its all bad like previous posted...

[Snapolit1]

I can barely cut a coupon out of the paper without botching it. I wouldn't trust myself in a million years with scissors or razor blade to do anything but fk a card upon beyond belief.

Originally Posted by steve B

I don't. Because that would be what I call "bad"


I could probably do a pretty good job of it if I really wanted to, but again, that would be "bad"

I could tell you how, but again, also " bad"

I will say that nearly any method you can use to cut paper probably has been used. And that nearly all will be relatively easy to detect as being trimming.

Don't take it wrong, I'm mostly just having a bit of fun. Lasers and cutting boards have both been used and are pretty easy to tell.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

I was just curious how high-tech it had gotten.....I mean, let's assume lasers are used in surgeries, and to make microchips etc.....like very, very precise. How far off are these "trimmed cards?" i mean, theoretically, could you trim it nanometers to polish up the edges, and still have it be the right size? I presume PSA etc aren't going down to the nanometer -- do they stop at the millimeter? I'm just curious -- just a very theoretical question, because it seems that if there is something "obvious" like this, there exists a spectrum in which something moves from "covert" to "obvious" and I wonder if there is a quantifiable point in which that occurs? Does that make sense?

Well,

Obvious would be scissors. I have a couple T206s that were cut down ages ago so someone could get then to fit a page. And that's even more common on stuff like E90-1s. Really easy to tell since most people can't cut straight for as much as an inch. (Both a sad and fortunate thing all at once I suppose)

Less obvious is exacto knife type trims. Usually intended to be deceptive. They don't duplicate any traits of a real cut. I have a couple T206s trimmed this way too. One is pretty obvious, another less so, but mistakes were made by whoever trimmed it. Even if they hadn't, it would be identifiable as trimmed.

I don't know for sure if I have any laser trimmed. The edge from that is also far different then you'd get from other cutters. And most hobby level laser cutters have fairly wide beams that leave scorching. Maybe some high end machine that does it's thing in a vacuum? But that would still leave a different edge quality under magnification.

There are a few methods that could work. But at the end of the day it's a machining process, and each different process leaves different marks. Loot at enough T206s in nice condition, and you'll eventually get to being able to spot ones cut with dull blades vs sharp. Even after 107 years.

[steve B]

Or, put another way.

Give me a decent lab with the right sort of equipment and there are probably very nearly no trims that I couldn't catch. I can probably catch 90% with the really basic stuff I have at home. (And the one I can think of that would get through is a bit scary. )

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by steve B

Or, put another way.

Give me a decent lab with the right sort of equipment and there are probably very nearly no trims that I couldn't catch. I can probably catch 90% with the really basic stuff I have at home. (And the one I can think of that would get through is a bit scary. )

Has net54 ever considered a youtube channel? Like I would love to see you catch a few cards. I am scared to death of buying a trimmed card misgraded, and you guys always talk about wavy and "look at that corner" and I have NO IDEA what I am looking at. Seriously. Zero idea. If they are graded and they arent OBVIOUS, how the heck can I find it?

[toledo_mudhen]

xacto knife trims almost always leave the corner(s) point(s) with little "nipples" sticking out... this is a good example - you should be able to easily identify the trim side....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-...sAAOSwOA1aPuSo