Aaron or Mays?

[JoeyFarino]

Statistics aside which player are you more of a fan of?

Aaron by far is my favorite. He didnt have the outgoing personality like Mays but overcame so many obstacles and never lost his cool. As a kid instantly fell in love with his RC and learned as much as i could about him.

[Vintagevault13]

Aaron for me. Not a shocker since I grew up just north of Atlanta. Regardless, I liked the way he played and carried himself. He never seemed to be comfortable as the focal point of so much publicity late in his career as he approached the HR record. I sometimes think the homerun record actually overshadowed his overall greatness. Amazing to think he would still have over 3,000 hits if you took away all of his homeruns.


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[Neal]

Aaron

[rats60]

Mays. He was a complete 5 tool player.

[egri]

Hammerin' Hank for me.

[BearBailey]

Mays. Just think if mays played in the stadiums Aaron did, think how many more home runs he would have had. Regardless mays for me, by a landslide.

[David W]

Originally Posted by BearBailey

Mays. Just think if mays played in the stadiums Aaron did, think how many more home runs he would have had. Regardless mays for me, by a landslide.

Plus Mays spent most of 1952 and all of 1953 in the military, that cost him a minimum of 50 home runs, maybe closer to 80

[Neal]

Originally Posted by BearBailey

Mays. Just think if mays played in the stadiums Aaron did, think how many more home runs he would have had. Regardless mays for me, by a landslide.

Like County Stadium throughout the prime of his career? Not to take anything away from Mays, but hitting in the Polo Grounds and Candlestick is much different than the park factors at County.

[Harliduck]

I think Mays was the better player, but I have always liked Aaron best. Growing up in the 70's Aaron was about as big as it got...

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Neal

Like County Stadium throughout the prime of his career? Not to take anything away from Mays, but hitting in the Polo Grounds and Candlestick is much different than the park factors at County.

This is not true. Aaron's rookie season County Stadium gave up 72 HR'S. The next 4 season it averaged 126. The last 7 seasons, it was one of the easiest parks averaging 158 HR'S per season. 3 of those 7 seasons it gave up the 2nd most HR'S in the NL and was never lower than 4th. Over those 12 seasons there were an average of 140 HR'S hit, a lot compared to the most difficult park to hit HRs, Forbes Field, which averaged 86 per season. Over that same period Mays home park averaged 164 per season with the difference being the years played in the Polo Grounds.

In 1966 Aaron moved from one of the easiest parks to the easiest. Mays last 7 years in SF, his home park averaged 138 HRS, where Aaron's averaged 169. So, over the years their careers overlapped 54-72, Aaron had the easier park to hit HRS in. That doesn't even factor the Braves moving the fences in in the power alleys where Aaron liked to hit balls.

[ajquigs]

I saw the tail ends of both of their careers as a little kid and, in turn, I admire them both. Willie gets the edge for me because I'm a New Yorker and my mother adored him.

With Hank, I frequently think about the seven year contracts big free agents sign. His first free agent season would have been 1960, meaning he could have signed two successive seven year free agent contracts (ending after 1973) with approximately zero words ever being written by anybody about them being bad deals. To me, that's incredible.

[Rookiemonster]

Willie mays ,is the greatest player of all time . He has clout on both coast from playing in New York and San Francisco . I was first introduced to the say hey kid from my grandfather . He was a Brooklyn Dodger fan . When I got in to baseball
I would ask him about the baseball greats he remembered . Of course he loved Duke snider and Campanella . But when I asked who was the best he ever seen .
The answer was mays . He told me how the boys in Brooklyn ,where he grew up would debate the topic . Yankees fans loved mantle ( of course ) Giants mays and Brooklyn snider . He said they would fight every time the topic came up . Fist fights now arguments I've heard this from others that were around at that time . So for a die hard Brooklyn fan to admit to Mays being the best alway spoke to me .

[jbl79]

Mays

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Mays. He was a complete 5 tool player.

Absolutely agree.

[jason.1969]

Will answer with my pic from Saturday. As a kid the idea of breaking Babe Ruth's record and being the Home Run King made Aaron stand alone. (If this were the real Internet, I'd get at least 10 comments of the troll variety asking if that means Barry Bonds is now my favorite player. )

[jason.1969]

Just saw Aaron on Saturday. He was 100% class...warm, gracious, and in a great mood.

I can't vouch for how he would react if a random fan approached him on the street, but the guy we got Saturday was as good a guy as anyone could ask for.

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[jason.1969]

Aaron seem to have a big lead right now, but tomorrow is the anniversary of The Catch!

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[jb67]

I vote for Mays because I think he was in my opinion more of a complete player. Always a great debate. Aaron is one of my favorites but have to go with Willie.

Have to see some cardboard with this thread. My favorite Mays card!

[HawkFan70]

Great looking card!

[the 'stache]

Aaron for me, hands down.

And better player? I do think Mays was the better player, but I think the margin is small.

Mays played center. Aaron right. Mays is one of the best defensive center fielders to ever play the game. He was dynamite. But Aaron was a damned good right fielder. The problem with his defensive reputation is that he played the same position, at the same time, as arguably the best right fielder to ever play the game. Aaron won three Gold Gloves between 1958 and 1960. Clemente then proceeded to win the next twelve.

Offensively, their metrics are nearly identical. For his career, Mays has a 156 OPS +. Aaron's is 155. Their career bWAR is pretty close, too, though Aaron did end up playing almost two more years worth of ball. Aaron has a 142.6 WAR. Mays is at 156.2. But he also gets a bonus to dWAR from playing a premium position (as he should). That accounts for the gap.

Base stealing? Mays stole more often, but, interestingly enough, they have nearly identical career efficiency. Mays swiped 338 bases in 441 tries, good for a 76.64% success rate. Aaron swiped 240 bases in 313 attempts, good for a 76.67% success rate. Mays gets the nod here because he went more often. But he was not a better base stealer.

And as for this stadium debate...I spent ten years attending games at Milwaukee County Stadium, and let me tell you, hitting the ball out of the park there is not as easy as some of you guys are making it. Yes, the Polo Grounds, where Mays played, was a canyon. Hitting it out of dead center field was nearly unheard of. But he left New York at age 26. The next two seasons were played at Seals Stadium. The power alley in left center was 364'. At Milwaukee County Stadium, it was 377'. Candlestick Park was ready in 1960. Mays hit 29 home runs that year, and the power alley in left was 397'. The next year, they brought the wall in, to 365'. The left field foul marker at the Stick was 335', and '320 at County Stadium. Well, 15' is a significant difference, but he benefited from the Polo Grounds and its 279' left field foul pole until he was 26, so....

And if you guys are going to bring up the wind coming from the bay in San Francisco, just stop. If you've ever spent a summer evening at County Stadium, you know the winds coming in from Lake Michigan can be pretty wicked. So, I don't buy this whole "Aaron had it easier because of where he played."

Look at their lifetime splits.

Aaron: 755 home runs. 385 home. 370 on the road.
Mays: 660 home runs. 335 home. 325 on the road.

OPS + adjusts for park factors. Their career OPS Is nearly identical. Aaron had the same career stolen base success rate. And he was a pretty good fielder.

I give Mays his due. Absolutely. But let's slow down with the "Mays was clearly the better player" spiel. It's not accurate.

[JoeyFarino]

Mays was not clearly the better player and im surprised when people say that. Aaron was a beast and had nearly the same playing ability as Mays

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Aaron for me, hands down.

And better player? I do think Mays was the better player, but I think the margin is small.

Mays played center. Aaron right. Mays is one of the best defensive center fielders to ever play the game. He was dynamite. But Aaron was a damned good right fielder. The problem with his defensive reputation is that he played the same position, at the same time, as arguably the best right fielder to ever play the game. Aaron won three Gold Gloves between 1958 and 1960. Clemente then proceeded to win the next twelve.

Offensively, their metrics are nearly identical. For his career, Mays has a 156 OPS +. Aaron's is 155. Their career bWAR is pretty close, too, though Aaron did end up playing almost two more years worth of ball. Aaron has a 142.6 WAR. Mays is at 156.2. But he also gets a bonus to dWAR from playing a premium position (as he should). That accounts for the gap.

Base stealing? Mays stole more often, but, interestingly enough, they have nearly identical career efficiency. Mays swiped 338 bases in 441 tries, good for a 76.64% success rate. Aaron swiped 240 bases in 313 attempts, good for a 76.67% success rate. Mays gets the nod here because he went more often. But he was not a better base stealer.

And as for this stadium debate...I spent ten years attending games at Milwaukee County Stadium, and let me tell you, hitting the ball out of the park there is not as easy as some of you guys are making it. Yes, the Polo Grounds, where Mays played, was a canyon. Hitting it out of dead center field was nearly unheard of. But he left New York at age 26. The next two seasons were played at Seals Stadium. The power alley in left center was 364'. At Milwaukee County Stadium, it was 377'. Candlestick Park was ready in 1960. Mays hit 29 home runs that year, and the power alley in left was 397'. The next year, they brought the wall in, to 365'. The left field foul marker at the Stick was 335', and '320 at County Stadium. Well, 15' is a significant difference, but he benefited from the Polo Grounds and its 279' left field foul pole until he was 26, so....

And if you guys are going to bring up the wind coming from the bay in San Francisco, just stop. If you've ever spent a summer evening at County Stadium, you know the winds coming in from Lake Michigan can be pretty wicked. So, I don't buy this whole "Aaron had it easier because of where he played."

Look at their lifetime splits.

Aaron: 755 home runs. 385 home. 370 on the road.
Mays: 660 home runs. 335 home. 325 on the road.

OPS + adjusts for park factors. Their career OPS Is nearly identical. Aaron had the same career stolen base success rate. And he was a pretty good fielder.

I give Mays his due. Absolutely. But let's slow down with the "Mays was clearly the better player" spiel. It's not accurate.

Aaron has a negative defensive WAR. Aaron had a good arm, but I think he was below average as a fielder. Mays' raw defensive numbers are significantly better than Aaron's even before defensive adjustments. Gold Gloves are a poor metric for defense, Derek Jeter has won Gold Gloves and he is terrible defensively. There is also no prohibition against 2 RF or 2 CF getting gold gloves, so the idea that Clemente prevented him from winning more is false.

Mays was a much better base runner. You only mention stolen bases. Mays took extra bases 63% of the time. He was arguably the best. Aaron took extra bases only 51%.

Both Candlestick and County Stadium were easy parks to hit the ball out of. Looking at the numbers, there is no advantage SF vs. Mil. Polo Grounds was an extremely easy park for HRS, but Aaron's advantage comes from his years in Atlanta. It was the easiest park to hit HRS in. Its nickname "the launching pad" was well deserved. Then the Braves moved the fences in where Aaron liked to hit the ball, the power alleys, making it even easier to hit HRs. Then after Aaron broke the HR record and Aaron was slowing down, they moved them back.

[jason.1969]

We've gotten derailed in going from favorite to best. But I like this new twist of who has the better cardboard. Now there's a debate!

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[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

We've gotten derailed in going from favorite to best. But I like this new twist of who has the better cardboard. Now there's a debate!

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Your right Jason .

1951 Mays vs 1954 Aaron = both iconic , both valuable , both from awesome sets ! This is a hard one but I'll go with 1951 bowman as that set has a hold on me .

1952 topps Mays well this might be his best card . Imo any card Aaron ever had does not compare to this . ( 52 bowman is not to shabby either )

1953 topps I think is the only card with him in a fielding pose . And it's awesome !

Now if you want to say 54 Aaron vs Mays no doubt it's Aaron . 55 well Aaron !
56 topps I'll go Mays because I like his card and from what I hear the image in the back round on Aaron's 56 is Mays . After that it's a tie to me as they are very similar cards for a few years .

I once again give this to Mays mainly because his early cards are fantastic and both of these greats later cards are very similar to one another .

[bbcard1]

If you put the cards side by side throughout the contemporaneous career, I think most folks would go 7 out of 10 for Aaron. He was more photogenic and tended to look at the camera and smile, while many of Mays' shots are off to the side. No doubt the early career cards of Mays were great, but they were mostly painted and you can't knock Aaron for not having cards in the sets.

[Rookiemonster]

I don't blame Aaron for not having cards in those sets . Imo the painting does not take away from the card at all . If anything it adds to it , it feels more vintage . It has this feel that you can only get from those years . Cause before the cards were pretty plain . Most people would agree the 1951 to 1953 manltes are pretty nice looking ( no smile needed ) . Look Mays doesn't have those mid 70s cards like Aaron . 1958 topps is just both of there heads smiling and floating . 1959 pretty much the same . 1960 topps once again almost the same card . 1961 I'll give to Aaron even though he has a sourpuss. And it goes on and on after this .

[RobertC]

Here's another twist. Forget about who was best. If you could have both Aaron and Mays in their prime on your team, who would you want as your third outfielder?

[jason.1969]

Just imagine the choices for outfielder #3 in 1957...

Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Duke Snider, Larry Doby, Richie Ashburn, Rocky Colavito, Al Kaline, Minnie Minoso, ...

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[jchcollins]

Willie and Hank were both retired by the time I was born, so my opinions are purely based as a card collector who came to know about them and the game in the mid to late 1980's. When I was a kid, I kind of viewed them the same to be honest. I thought they went together. Yes, Aaron had the HR record, but Willie wasn't that far being him. Hank went with Willie kind of like Musial was mentioned alongside Williams, etc. etc. Maybe I'm the only one who did that, but I still think of them that way. Time has been kinder to Willie I think in judging him repeatedly in multiple places as "the greatest position player of all time". When the Sporting News came out with the greatest 100 players of all time at the end of the 1990's, Willie was #2 next to Ruth, and Aaron if memory serves was #5. As a kid collecting cards I was more into Aaron personally - but they have always been held in virtually the same esteem in my eyes since I found out who they were as probably a 10 or 11 year-old.


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[jason.1969]

Around that same age, I had a lot of twins and triplets. The sabermetricians out there would now shoot holes in many of these, but mine were--

Aaron/Mays/FRobby/Mantle

Foxx/Greenberg

Simmons/Klein

Banks/Mathews/Killebrew

Kaline/Clemente

DiMaggio/Musial