1909 E90-1 Cy Young — Real/Fake

[Jobu]

+1

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The only thing worse than posting that card again is posting it TWICE again in the same post.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jobu

+1

Watch it. ..posting pics is easy

[asoriano]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i asked the seller for better pics, figuring if he doesn't reply then it's junk...but he did update his pics and it should be clear to anyone now the card is real as rain.

and peter, the shading is not the smoking gun on the young.

Agreed, all of his current listings appear authentic to me.

[GasHouseGang]

This listing had all of the hallmarks of being a scam. So is this one case where a zero feedback seller, with vintage HOF cards is legit?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

This listing had all of the hallmarks of being a scam. So is this one case where a zero feedback seller, with vintage HOF cards is legit?

I did once get a nice raw T206 O'Hara STL on ebay cheap because of a bad scan, terrible description, and low feedback seller. It does happen. It's hard to say that this is a trustworthy seller, but I think those are pics of real cards that he is showing.

[whoopi1947]

The seller of this card is russelschreibe0 and he has been a good friend of mine for 25 years. I helped him set up his ebay account to sell a collection of cards that belonged to his father in law for a long time. The seller is 90 years old. I took the pictures and did not scan them. You seem to be worried about feedback on his part but check my seller feedback (whoopi1947). I will vouch for his honesty. Have you ever heard of ebay buyer protection program? If there is a problem with an item ebay will insure that it is resolved no matter if there is a 14 day return policy or not, especially if it is misrepresented. You might all be a nice bunch of guys but it sure sounds like a mob with pitchforks and torches. You are welcome to bid on the cards that we have listed but if you are too paranoid just let the other people on ebay buy the cards that you could have. Some of your members have bought some of these cards and we want to thank you and insure you that if there is a problem with your purchase we will make it right.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by whoopi1947

The seller of this card is russelschreibe0 and he has been a good friend of mine for 25 years. I helped him set up his ebay account to sell a collection of cards that belonged to his father in law for a long time. The seller is 90 years old. I took the pictures and did not scan them. You seem to be worried about feedback on his part but check my seller feedback (whoopi1947). I will vouch for his honesty. Have you ever heard of ebay buyer protection program? If there is a problem with an item ebay will insure that it is resolved no matter if there is a 14 day return policy or not, especially if it is misrepresented. You might all be a nice bunch of guys but it sure sounds like a mob with pitchforks and torches. You are welcome to bid on the cards that we have listed but if you are too paranoid just let the other people on ebay buy the cards that you could have. Some of your members have bought some of these cards and we want to thank you and insure you that if there is a problem with your purchase we will make it right.

Good to know all that.

Checking out your feedback, it looks like you sell a lot of different stuff, just like I did when I was actively selling. The first few are mostly cool old industrial type things, another hobby of mine.

That's a good field to be into, especially as a seller. Cards are much tougher. Old machinery and such is hard to fake, so it's not much of a problem.
However in cards........There's a LOT of sellers who specialize in reprints, and while it can be done reasonably, it seems like the majority of them use language that might make a buyer think there's a chance a card might be real. Others simply omit that it's a reprint and a few put them out there as real. And many of them constantly shift accounts, so a new account with expensive stuff gets some extra scrutiny.
Constantly seeing people who don't know better pay hundreds for either a worn commercially made reprint or something someone made on their printer at home leads to some of us keeping the pitchfork and torch right by the front door.

Yes, Ebay has a buyer protection plan, and it works well at times, but going through the process can be a nuisance.

The key as you've seen is really good pictures or scans. There's good stuff with poor scans, but again, many of the less upright sellers hide the clues behind poor cellphone pics.
Really good pictures eliminate the real/fake confusion and give a better idea of condition. I'd go so far as to say that good pictures add a lot to the final price, maybe not much for the less expensive cards, but for the really nice ones it will make a difference.


Steve B

[Cozumeleno]

Best of luck with the auctions - it is an excellent collection of cards.

I don't think people mean to unnecessarily pile on. The problem is that a zero feedback rating with a bunch of clean, quality, somewhat rare cards is often a red flag. You might have been better off actually listing the cards yourself through your account, which has more of a documented history, and giving him the money if that was an option. I'm guessing that would have drawn more bids.

I don't think the intent of the warning threads is to call every suspect listing as fraudulent so much as it is to protect other buyers. And while eBay does have a Buyer Protection system, it has no measures in place to really deal with things such as sellers giving buyers an empty package that was tracked, buyers returning items and sellers stating they received an empty envelope/package, etc. It's true they often side with the buyer, but not always.

Again, best of luck with the auctions. Those are some great looking cards.

Originally Posted by whoopi1947

The seller of this card is russelschreibe0 and he has been a good friend of mine for 25 years. I helped him set up his ebay account to sell a collection of cards that belonged to his father in law for a long time. The seller is 90 years old. I took the pictures and did not scan them. You seem to be worried about feedback on his part but check my seller feedback (whoopi1947). I will vouch for his honesty. Have you ever heard of ebay buyer protection program? If there is a problem with an item ebay will insure that it is resolved no matter if there is a 14 day return policy or not, especially if it is misrepresented. You might all be a nice bunch of guys but it sure sounds like a mob with pitchforks and torches. You are welcome to bid on the cards that we have listed but if you are too paranoid just let the other people on ebay buy the cards that you could have. Some of your members have bought some of these cards and we want to thank you and insure you that if there is a problem with your purchase we will make it right.

[chaddurbin]

this is/was how you pick up nice cards for bargains. identify gems from crappy scans or risky sellers that the slab heads would not touch...but it's getting tougher. this is how you get an off t206 common lot in hunts monthly auction on the last day going from $500-$600 to 8-9k, people getting smarter.

this seller certainly knew the card's value and priced it aggressively, but if it was lower and you could've picked up a nice VG+ card for a psa1 price then you would just keep your mouth shut and let people think it's a fake...or continue to shout that it's a reprint.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The only thing worse than posting that card again is posting it TWICE again in the same post.

Well, give Leon some credit. He posted twice in this thread before even posting his card. I was amazed at the restraint!

[ZachS]

Did somebody say something about nice E90-1 Cy Young cards???

[swarmee]

whoopi1947,
Thank you for checking in on this discussion board. My recommendation for you is that if you have other cards of this age and condition, you should consider sending them in to a 3rd party grading service (PSA or SGC) and having them authenticate the cards and grade them for you. This will give buyers no reason to avoid your and your friend's auctions, and the bids will rise.

If you need someone to explain the grading services to you, feel free to ask questions here or send me a direct message. If you sell a card which books ungraded in VG for $50, the same card could go for $10 if people think it's a fake or for $100-300 if it's graded VG-EX by a reputable grading service.

Spending a little cash up front to have your cards graded should reap benefits down the road.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by swarmee

whoopi1947,
Thank you for checking in on this discussion board. My recommendation for you is that if you have other cards of this age and condition, you should consider sending them in to a 3rd party grading service (PSA or SGC) and having them authenticate the cards and grade them for you. This will give buyers no reason to avoid your and your friend's auctions, and the bids will rise.

If you need someone to explain the grading services to you, feel free to ask questions here or send me a direct message. If you sell a card which books ungraded in VG for $50, the same card could go for $10 if people think it's a fake or for $100-300 if it's graded VG-EX by a reputable grading service.

Spending a little cash up front to have your cards graded should reap benefits down the road.

I agree. Assuming all of that is true it would have been a good idea to advise your friend to grade those cards before selling on Ebay. If not all of them, at least the Cobb and Young. His expected return would have been much higher.

[ullmandds]

I think the seller is going to do fine as a result of this thread .

[irishdenny]

Gentleman,
I've Only look'd at the Cards Shown Here,
Both the E90-1 & E95 have the Same Papar stock...
And That can Only Tell me THaT the Cards are Fake!
E90-1 Corner's Nevar Fray Like that...
T206's oN the Other Hand Do!

ThaTs Where It Ends There Fir me!!!

The Rest is Just Piling iT oN...

You Guyz Should Listen ta Mr. Peter U.!

It's Been a Brilliant Day Aye !!!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by CW

Well, give Leon some credit. He posted twice in this thread before even posting his card. I was amazed at the restraint!

It was killing me too!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

whoopi1947,
Thank you for checking in on this discussion board. My recommendation for you is that if you have other cards of this age and condition, you should consider sending them in to a 3rd party grading service (PSA or SGC) and having them authenticate the cards and grade them for you. This will give buyers no reason to avoid your and your friend's auctions, and the bids will rise.

If you need someone to explain the grading services to you, feel free to ask questions here or send me a direct message. If you sell a card which books ungraded in VG for $50, the same card could go for $10 if people think it's a fake or for $100-300 if it's graded VG-EX by a reputable grading service.

Spending a little cash up front to have your cards graded should reap benefits down the road.

Everyone has their opinion, mine is different. At this point in my hobby (been doing this for 30 years now - since '86), it doesnt matter to me as a buyer if a card is graded or not - especially on mid grade stuff like this.

A couple weeks ago I bought this graded Lajoie on eBay. I didnt buy it because it was graded and it didnt influence my purchasing decision whatsoever.



As soon as I received it, it came out of its ridiculous plastic tomb. Did I lose money? I could honestly care less. I dont need some TPGs stamp of approval to tell me its real and especially tell me the condition. Then again, the corners are evenly rounded so it could be fake

As Pete said, the seller of these cards will do just fine.

Free from its tomb (and after a little bath to remove tobacco stains)...

[swarmee]

His goal at this point is to sell the cards on eBay. So the TPGs are very valuable in his situation. They're not for everyone. But they are for this case.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

His goal at this point is to sell the cards on eBay. So the TPGs are very valuable in his situation. They're not for everyone. But they are for this case.

You're inferring that the cards will sell for more if they're graded. That's where we disagree. If they were higher grade cards, I could see your point. But the Young appears somewhere between VG to VG/EX (between a PSA 3-4). I think you will see after the auction is over, it will sell for somewhere between what a PSA 3 or 4 would normally sell for.

The point I was making with the Lajoie was that I would have paid the same thing for it even if it would have been raw. The fact that it was graded didn't bring any more money for the card.

I used to think the sane thing you did, but I've lost confidence in all the TPGs and their opinion means nothing to me anymore. I'm also finding that there are several others who feel the same way.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm also finding that there are several others who feel the same way.

Ok, so if there were 50 people who were in the bidding for this item, and 10 of them thought the card was real, and the other 40 thought it was a likely fake, it would end up getting to the same amount? That is the crux of my argument. The other 40 bidders would drop out at 1/3 of the card value or less, leaving the 10 of you to bid it up to 70-80% of the value.
Getting it authenticated by a TPG brings in the other 40 bidders, who will now stay in and possibly bid it to 110-150% of SMR book value (for the rarer/HOF pieces).
This is a brand new seller's friend of vintage cards ON EBAY. That is who I was addressing my recommendation to.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Ok, so if there were 50 people who were in the bidding for this item, and 10 of them thought the card was real, and the other 40 thought it was a likely fake, it would end up getting to the same amount?

You're equating the number of bidders with the final bid amount. That's not how it works. It only takes 2 bidders to drive the price of the card (or any other item) up.

We'll just have to disagree. But let's revisit this thread in a couple days and see the hammer price.

[swarmee]

It is apples to oranges now. The cards are now presumed real by a wider swath of the community.

[whoopi1947]

I want to thank all of the forum members for their opinions and advice. I've sold a lot of various items on ebay and enjoy the thrill when I get a item that ends at 10 times the price that I expected. Whenever I sell an item or help another person sell one, I research the items as well as possible. I did the same for the baseball cards. I haven't collected a baseball card since I managed to collect a full set in 1956 when I was 10 years old (wish I still had it). I researched the web and found a confusing amount of pros and cons of having cards graded. I left it up to the owner of the cards who was told by a former grader and collector in the next county not to get them graded, that all were valid and it wouldn't be worth the cash outlay when we list them on ebay. Anyway that where we ended up with the listings. We have about 10 cards to relist and about 50 more that haven't been listed yet but will be on about the 2nd week of May. Again thanks for your opinions and advice and keep watching please. Thanks again Jim and Russ.

[Leon]

Thanks for the update Jim and Russ. Whomever gave you the first advice got part of it right. It does indeed look like they will be authentic, with respect to your posts, but most likely you would have gotten a bit more for them if they were authenticated. At least that is my view on it. Regardless, it's been a good showing so far and I am sure ya'll will do well. Good luck with everything and thanks again for coming on our board to explain. It makes a huge difference especially with the yellow/red flags of the listings. Zero feedback and the cards looking the way they do would have left many, if not most, skeptical.

Originally Posted by whoopi1947

I want to thank all of the forum members for their opinions and advice. I've sold a lot of various items on ebay and enjoy the thrill when I get a item that ends at 10 times the price that I expected. Whenever I sell an item or help another person sell one, I research the items as well as possible. I did the same for the baseball cards. I haven't collected a baseball card since I managed to collect a full set in 1956 when I was 10 years old (wish I still had it). I researched the web and found a confusing amount of pros and cons of having cards graded. I left it up to the owner of the cards who was told by a former grader and collector in the next county not to get them graded, that all were valid and it wouldn't be worth the cash outlay when we list them on ebay. Anyway that where we ended up with the listings. We have about 10 cards to relist and about 50 more that haven't been listed yet but will be on about the 2nd week of May. Again thanks for your opinions and advice and keep watching please. Thanks again Jim and Russ.

[Webster]

Wow. Those fake cards sure sold for a lot of money...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Webster

Wow. Those fake cards sure sold for a lot of money...

I don't know about "a lot" considering most everyone knew they are real....at least everyone who reads the board. A good showing overall...their completed listings.....

http://www.ebay.com/csc/russelschrei..._sop=13&_rdc=1

.

[vintagetoppsguy]

It sold for about what a PSA 3 sells for. I actually thought it might bring $1700, but I was off by about 10%

I still stand behind what I said about selling the cards raw. A lot of buyers like myself could care less if it were graded or not and will still bid the same amount regardless.

If the card would have graded a 4, yeah he left about $400 or so on the table. However, if the card would have graded a 2, he made out well by not having it graded. If the card would have graded a 3, he still looses because of the grading fees and time involved.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're equating the number of bidders with the final bid amount. That's not how it works. It only takes 2 bidders to drive the price of the card (or any other item) up.

Point proven.

Here is a PSA 3 that recently sold for $1476.01. It had 33 bids by 22 unique bidders.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565


Here is the card that is the subject. It sold for $1534.74. It had 8 bids by only 2 unique bidders, yet it sold for more than the PSA 3.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

More bidders doesn't mean squat.

[Leon]

The raw one that is the subject had a better story and publicity.

Anyone can find sales to fit their analysis needs. If I want to and take long enough I am sure I could find some counter-examples. There is a reason almost all higher end cards are graded when sold. Generally speaking they bring more money. But that is only my, and most other AH's and collectors, opinions. There are always anomalies too. And lastly, I am well aware that sometimes a card can sell for more raw as someone might think it's a higher technical grade than it is and pay for that grade . So in those cases selling raw is better. This might be one of those exceptional cases. I can agree with that. But all of the other cards too......I doubt it.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Point proven.

Here is a PSA 3 that recently sold for $1476.01. It had 33 bids by 22 unique bidders.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565


Here is the card that is the subject. It sold for $1534.74. It had 8 bids by only 2 unique bidders, yet it sold for more than the PSA 3.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

More bidders doesn't mean squat.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

The raw one that is the subject had a better story and publicity.

Anyone can find sales to fit their analysis needs. If I want to and take long enough I am sure I could find some counter-examples. There is a reason almost all higher end cards are graded when sold. Generally speaking they bring more money. But that is only my, and most other AH's and collectors, opinions. There are always anomalies too. And lastly, I am well aware that sometimes a card can sell for more raw as someone might think it's a higher technical grade than it is and pay for that grade . So in those cases selling raw is better. This might be one of those exceptional cases. I can agree with that. But all of the other cards too......I doubt it.

it may have had better publicity, but that didn't help the number of bidders. It still had only 2 bidders. And, in fact, I would be willing to bet those two bidders are not even board members. I say that because at the time of their initial bids (according to the time stamps), the consensus was that the card was a fake.

And I didn't have to look too hard to find sales to fit my analysis. I simply took the last completed sale of a PSA 3. We could probably go back to the last 3, 4, 5 sales of this card in a PSA 3 and the data would be consistent.

My opinion that grading doesn't impact the final sale price is only for lower to lower/mid grade cards. I agree that mid grade cards and up should be graded to maximize the sale.