Most Influential African American Baseball Figure Besides Jackie Robinson

[Donscards]

Hank Aaron

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by conor912

I don't think those choices could be any more esoteric. The most influential to the most people had to be Mays. I can see the call for Aaron and what his record did for the game, but I'm sticking with Mays.

Esoteric or not it is about the most influential person to the game. Just because people haven't heard the names doesn't mean they weren't the most influential person.

John Barber patented the Gas Turbine Engine, yet just because not everyone knows he was doesn't mean he wasn't influential in the history of engines.

Originally Posted by ATP

I agree with all of this. The issue is that not many other people do, except those who may live in the NW or follow PCL history closely. I do not mean to undermine what Claxton accomplished, I just don't feel what he did really impacted mainstream baseball on a nationwide level, as great as he was.
Best,
Jeff

Very well said Jeff.

This will sound like hyperbole, but Claxton was great, perhaps the greatest semi-professional ballplayer to ever play the game. Not to diminish Robinson's achievement but Claxton integrated the Tacoma Industrial League and Seattle Inter-City League in 1924. He even threw a no-hitter June 23, 1924 in the TIL. At the time, nearly 25% of the white male population in the United States was a member of the KKK. By the time Robinson and Doby played professional baseball, one of the largest institutions in the US, the armed services, had fully integrated. Quite the disparity in social circumstances.

I don't think you can go wrong with a list like this and I agree about Aaron, and others but I'm a hopeless Claxton apologist. Forgive my weaknesses.

[oldjudge]

Pumpsie Green. Firsts and lasts are always important. While the Dodgers were the first team to integrate, the Red Sox were the last, in 1959. Apparently, team owner Tom Yawkey fought the process. In fact, Jackie Robinson called Yawkey "one of the most bigoted guys in baseball."

[Exhibitman]

Pre-war, Satchel Paige.

[Jason19th]

Sam Lacy, Wendell Smith, Frank A. Young, Joe Bostic, Chester L. Washington, W. Rollo Wilson, Dan Burley, Ed Harris, A.S. "Doc" Young and Romeo Dougherty

The players may have been performing the feats but without these guys no one hears about them. They also were very active in trying to set up tryouts and get mainstream support.

Along the same lines, but not black, Shirley Povich (yes Maury's dad) wrote some incredible editorials about integration in the 1930 and 40's

[gnaz01]

Hank Aaron

[shelly]

Willie Mays, might have been a great ball player but he sure does not represent a good man.
My choice which everyone seems not to remember is Larry Doby who had to suffer as much as Jackie.
The other play I would pick Is Don Newcomb who has represented like no one else.

[Mountaineer1999]

Hank Aaron

[Runscott]

If you were a black baseball fan in 1920? Seriously understood everything that was going on in ALL baseball at that time, and in the past, and could see the future , including the impact of all the future players mentioned here, I seriously doubt the word "esoteric" would cross your mind when Foster's name was brought up.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[clydepepper]

Larry Doby - his efforts and struggles are overlooked in the wake of Jackie Robinson.

It should be remembered that he came up the same year in the other league before there was inter-league play...so, his treatment and 'reception' was most likely the same, though I have never read anything on it.

Before coast-to-coast TV coverage, you would only see players live at games and, in American League only cities, the only black player was Larry Doby.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Effa Manley was probably white, at minimum bi-racial.

Am I the only one who finds it more than a little odd that the first woman in the Hall is named Manley?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Pumpsie Green. Firsts and lasts are always important. While the Dodgers were the first team to integrate, the Red Sox were the last, in 1959. Apparently, team owner Tom Yawkey fought the process. In fact, Jackie Robinson called Yawkey "one of the most bigoted guys in baseball."

http://www.wbur.org/2013/04/12/jacki...-movie-red-sox

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Larry Doby - his efforts and struggles are overlooked in the wake of Jackie Robinson.

...

...so, his treatment and 'reception' was most likely the same, though I have never read anything on it.

Given that he was the most influential figure in black baseball other than Jackie, that seems impossible.

[Econteachert205]

My rationale behind Paige is that while Foster was important, another capitalist african american would have likely replaced him in founding a league because of it's financial potential. Paige had no equal in terms of skill and personality and was a big force in driving integration. People wanted to know how good he really was. Then, at such an advanced age, performing so well and in the process capturing people's hearts with his unique style, and also the tragedy of what might have been in terms of major league numbers.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Esoteric or not it is about the most influential person to the game. Just because people haven't heard the names doesn't mean they weren't the most influential person.

John Barber patented the Gas Turbine Engine, yet just because not everyone knows he was doesn't mean he wasn't influential in the history of engines.

I disagree. "Most influential" to me means "had influence on the most people". You can't tell me that any of the guys in that poll had more influence on more people than Mays. To each his own, though.

[cubsfan-budman]

Aaron, imho.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

My rationale behind Paige is that while Foster was important, another capitalist african american would have likely replaced him in founding a league because of it's financial potential. Paige had no equal in terms of skill and personality and was a big force in driving integration. People wanted to know how good he really was. Then, at such an advanced age, performing so well and in the process capturing people's hearts with his unique style, and also the tragedy of what might have been in terms of major league numbers.

You should read up on Foster's life, and the various people and difficulties involved in getting a league started. There were plenty of capitalist african americans who were involved in trying to bring black baseball mainstream - it wasn't just a matter of there being a black african american capitalist available to do it.

I wouldn't have responded to this post, as I think most baseball historians are aware of what Foster went through and I'm not interested in arguing about documented history, but I would hate for others to think it was as simple as you make it sound.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Curt Flood. Free agency.

+1

When you watch Ken Burns' Baseball documentary, you really understand how Flood changed the game.

PS- I'm embarrassed to admit, I did not know that Shirley Povich was Maury's dad. You learn something every day.

[tedzan]

I agree with Adam W (Post #55).

I was a young avid BB fan in 1947 when Jackie Robinson was a rookie. And, Satchell Paige followed him.

I remember those years very clearly. You had to experience the excitement back in 1947 and 1948, respectively, to really
appreciate Jackie and Satchell. Those were very exciting times. And....in my opinion, the 1947 World Series (Yankees vs
Dodgers) was the greatest.






......


.






TED Z
.

[packs]

Just wondering what you guys consider your choice's influence to be. I might be misunderstanding the spirit of the discussion but to me an influential person changes something forever. Jackie being the basis is throwing me off.

[wolf441]

I'd have to agree with everyone that said Rube Foster. With that said, Buck O'Neil may have been the nicest human being that I've ever met.

[Dan Carson]

I agree with Ted Z.

Leroy "Satchell" Paige and San Diego's John Ritchey on the west coast....

[Econteachert205]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You should read up on Foster's life, and the various people and difficulties involved in getting a league started. There were plenty of capitalist african americans who were involved in trying to bring black baseball mainstream - it wasn't just a matter of there being a black african american capitalist available to do it.

I wouldn't have responded to this post, as I think most baseball historians are aware of what Foster went through and I'm not interested in arguing about documented history, but I would hate for others to think it was as simple as you make it sound.

I didn't mean to make it sound simple or belittle it, though I see it is easily perceived that way. I am aware of the process of securing financing such an undertaking. Merely I was saying I believe in all likelihood given the potential for profit that someone else would likely have done it, though not necessarily with the skill foster did. There is no one who had the combination of talent and charisma to be satchel paige other than the man. That was my only point

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

I didn't mean to make it sound simple or belittle it, though I see it is easily perceived that way. I am aware of the process of securing financing such an undertaking. Merely I was saying I believe in all likelihood given the potential for profit that someone else would likely have done it, though not necessarily with the skill foster did. There is no one who had the combination of talent and charisma to be satchel paige other than the man. That was my only point

The following page contains an article that I wrote a couple of years ago about black baseball in Chicago and Kansas City that discusses some of what Foster was involved with. It also describes other African Americans who were instrumental in pushing black baseball forward in the early 1900's: http://www.t206themonster.com/Articles.html

[Econteachert205]

Thanks Scott, and very well written and explained.

[Runscott]

Thanks Dennis - you may be the only person other than my editor, to ever have read it!

The article was primarily about what was going on in 1909-12; however, to put things in context I had to study up on everything from the late 1800's through Foster's creation of the Negro National League. But all of that has already been written about.

[David W]

I put other.

For Pre War I would go with Satchel Paige.

He was certainly one of the reasons for the color barrier falling.

For post war, I would go with Hank Aaron

[Exhibitman]

Hank Aaron was the first black player to break a true major offensive career record. He broke the most cherished record of the most popular, iconic player who ever lived. He did so with boundless grace and class, which has been the man's hallmark for his entire public life. He won the popular support of casual white American fans all over the country. When he came into the game it was still partly segregated, as was the South. He went into the deep South only a few years after the civil rights laws were passed and won over the fans to the point where he graced the covers of Atlanta Braves schedules in 1970 and1974. When he exited the game Jim Crow was dead and he was a superstar. When Aaron started many whites asked why a black player should be allowed to play. When he broke the record in 1974 the vast majority asked why shouldn't a black player be allowed to play. If Jackie opened the road, Hank more than anyone else paved it and put in a super highway.

[baseballfan]

I went with other

Aaron had the weight of the world on his shoulders shortly after racial tensions in the country and performed at a high level

[Bob Lemke]

My vote is Roy Campanella. He had to prove that Black catchers had the "intelligence" and the guts to handle white pitchers.

I also seem to remember that he was being groomed by the Dodgers to become a manager at the time of his tragedy.

[gracecollector]

I chose "other," and my vote goes to a little-known player, who never played in the minors, let alone the bigs.

Charles Thomas was an African-American student athlete at Ohio Wesleyan Univerisity. He was the starting catcher on the school's 1904 squad. On a road trip to play against the University of Notre Dame, the team went to check into the Oliver Hotel. Although arrangements have been made well in advance, the room clerk will not allow Thomas to check in. He suggests that Thomas should seek shelter at the town's YMCA. Ohio Wesleyan's team manager checks the YMCA to see if there are enough rooms for the entire team. There aren't. Humiliated, Charles Thomas is in tears and tells teammates he will return to school.

A teammate steps up and convinces the room clerk to allow Thomas to stay in his room until a colored family in town can be found to let Thomas spend the night with him. Once allowed up to the room, the teammate locks the door and refuses to let anyone come for Thomas. Thomas's plight weighs heavily on his teammate, and will stay with him the rest of his life. He remembers Thomas sitting on the room's bed repeating "Black skin, black skin. If I only could rub it off and make it white."

The teammate? Branch Rickey. Clarence Thomas was Rickey's impetus to his efforts to break the color barrier. And therefore I believe his influence on the game of baseball is second only to Jackie Robinson.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Given that he was the most influential figure in black baseball other than Jackie, that seems impossible.

You were right....guess I never looked, but I'm buying one today:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161408989172...MakeTrack=true

[rats60]

Originally Posted by sago

Roberto Clemente was Puerto Rican.

How about Frank Robinson? First African-American manager in both leagues, and active in civil rights.

Puerto Rico is part of the United States of America.

[Klrdds]

Rube Foster for organizing and getting black baseball started as mainstream and helping African-Americans get an opportunity to play organized baseball on a semi-national stage.
Curt Flood for his reserve clause stance which has helped all baseball players with free agency regardless of race, and indirectly helped the owners reap huge profits , as well as possibly the TV revenue we see today.
Rube Foster had a finite window of influence , but Flood's influence is still felt over 40 years later with every free agent signing and multi billion dollar tv contract. Flood's effect transcends race and time .
Maybe I am giving Flood too much credit but I think he started the snowball rolling that is still rolling today.
I think Aaron should get some nods because he introduced baseball to the south and won over a lot of racial barriers also...but has he had as lasting as an effect on baseball as Rube Foster or Curt Flood? I say no.

[nebboy]

BUCK O'NEILL



And Foster

[Vintagevault13]

Hank Aaron. Given what he did, he has to be the most underappreciated player in history.

[sago]

Originally Posted by rats60

Puerto Rico is part of the United States of America.

Even if so, he is not African. Same as some Dominicans, Cubans, etc., may have some ancestors that were from Africa, but they are not African either.

[Bobmc]

Curt Flood -
as a player, he represented all players when he led the charge against the owners and the reserve clause. In essence, he sacrificed himself for all current and future players' livelihood, not only in baseball, but, all other sports fell in line with what Curt Flood started. At the end of the day when the reserve clause was overturned, the players and the owners began to reap larger payouts. Popularity in sports exploded to the upside. Expansion teams were added in baseball, football and basketball began to expand like no other time. IMO, Curt Flood's impact and influence on all sports is impossible to measure.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by wolf441

I'd have to agree with everyone that said Rube Foster. With that said, Buck O'Neil may have been the nicest human being that I've ever met.

Steve, I am envious. I'd give anything to go back in time to meet Buck O'Neil. Anything. Every time I watch the Ken Burns documentary, I enjoy his interview segments most of all. Not only was he a great man, and by all accounts a tremendously nice person, he was unmatched as a story teller. When he would talk about Satchel Page and Josh Gibson, it was as if he just watched them play. All those years later, he still had that spark in his eye. The man just loved baseball. One of my favorite recollections of his was when he talked about the first Negro League All Star Game, which I believe was in Chicago. And he talked about how everybody got dressed up to go to the ballpark.

I am so thankful that he lived long enough to recount his memories on film. He left a veritable treasure trove of baseball history for future generations to enjoy. I wish I could have met him. I wish I could have just say with him for an hour to talk about the game. Well, I'd have just listened. I stumbled across a book written by Joe Posnanski called Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America. Have you read it? I can't believe he and O'Neil toured America to watch the game at different stadiums...while he was 94 years old, no less. What an incredible treat that would have been.

When I heard that Mr. O'Neil had died, I wept. He was a mighty fine ball player. Maybe not up to the level of Gibson, or Paige, Cool Papa Bell or Smokey Joe Williams. But if there is a way to elect him as a contributor to the game, or a keeper of the game's spirit, Buck O'Neil should be in Cooperstown. He was a National Treasure, and the game will never see another man like him.

[nebboy]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Steve, I am envious. I'd give anything to go back in time to meet Buck O'Neil. Anything. Every time I watch the Ken Burns documentary, I enjoy his interview segments most of all. Not only was he a great man, and by all accounts a tremendously nice person, he was unmatched as a story teller. When he would talk about Satchel Page and Josh Gibson, it was as if he just watched them play. All those years later, he still had that spark in his eye. The man just loved baseball. One of my favorite recollections of his was when he talked about the first Negro League All Star Game, which I believe was in Chicago. And he talked about how everybody got dressed up to go to the ballpark.

I am so thankful that he lived long enough to recount his memories on film. He left a veritable treasure trove of baseball history for future generations to enjoy. I wish I could have met him. I wish I could have just say with him for an hour to talk about the game. Well, I'd have just listened. I stumbled across a book written by Joe Posnanski called Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America. Have you read it? I can't believe he and O'Neil toured America to watch the game at different stadiums...while he was 94 years old, no less. What an incredible treat that would have been.

When I heard that Mr. O'Neil had died, I wept. He was a mighty fine ball player. Maybe not up to the level of Gibson, or Paige, Cool Papa Bell or Smokey Joe Williams. But if there is a way to elect him as a contributor to the game, or a keeper of the game's spirit, Buck O'Neil should be in Cooperstown. He was a National Treasure, and the game will never see another man like him.

Well said!

[Klrdds]

Bill I agree with all you said . My favorite Buck moments from Burns' documentary are: 1. Him talking about Jackie Robinson and the gas station and using the restroom . And 2. The sound of a ball hitting a bat that he has only heard 3 times in his life.
Buck is probably the greatest ambassador baseball has ever known but as its most influential person or as a HoFer as a player unfortunately in my opinion no. However it would be great if he could get formal induction into the Hall somehow. Remember what he said when he did not make it in 2006.... He said he was already in the Hall because Satchel and Josh were in the Hall and that was enough for him. What a great guy. I met him once and it was an experience!!

[bbcard1]

I think Maury Wills deserves serious consideration. He was the Babe Ruth of his time so far as changing the game.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I can't believe nobody has mentioned Derek Jeter.

http://www.aaregistry.org/historic_e...baseballs-best

[jasoneggert]

Aaron

[triwak]

(Shameless card posting)! But I did vote for Rube.

[Runscott]

Ken, do you know who the suited man in the background is? If not, could you please email me a large scan of him? Thanks.

[Jcfowler6]

Clemente and Walker


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Ken, do you know who the suited man in the background is? If not, could you please email me a large scan of him? Thanks.

Looks like a photobomb 1911-style. He is in the stands.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Looks like a photobomb 1911-style. He is in the stands.

Doh! I didn't notice that.

I asked because it looks like Jack Johnson - Johnson was associated primarily with Kansas City teams during that period, but these guys were known to show up on teams and in photos, all across the midwest. Finding him with this team would have been historically significant.