Interesting info on REA lot 41 Four Base Hits card

[bmarlowe1]

See the REA listing:
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=30185

Comparing the face from the George Van Haltren Four Base Hits card (below left) to a photo of Van Haltren (below right) from the 1888 Chi NL composite:

• By age 22, the real Van Haltren had a significantly receded hairline that is not evident for the subject depicted on the card
• Shapes of skull/forehead are markedly different
• With features vertically aligned, the top of Van Haltren's skull comes up very short
• Angle of ears with respect to the head is noticeably different – the ear for the man on the card is more vertical, Van Haltren's ear tilts back more
• lower lips are very different
• contours of the front surface of the respective chins are also very different

Any one of the first 4 bullet points alone would tell us the guy is not Van Haltren. I don't know who this guy is. You would think he would be a ball player, but I am not sure. A couple of noted 19thC card experts told me that this should not adversely affect the value of the card.

[h2oya311]

Very interesting information.

How does this even come to the attention of the SABR pictorial history research committee? And how does one become a "noted facial-recognition expert"? Sounds cool. I'm just a regular schmoe that works for an insurance company. Doesn't sound cool.

Maybe the guy on the card is also an uncool insurance guy. He certainly dresses the part.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Very interesting information.
How does this even come to the attention of the SABR pictorial history research committee?

Not sure I understand that question. It is claimed to be a 19thC major league baseball player photo, is it not?

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Not sure I understand that question. It is claimed to be a 19thC major league baseball player photo, is it not?

Are you charged w/ reviewing any previously unknown/undocumented 19th century card, or do you pick and choose what gets reviewed for facial recognition? What about 20th century stuff? And is this your "real job" or a side project job?

If it's your "real job", then I simply can't help but to quote Deuce Bigelow: "I'm gonna kill my guidance counselor!"

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Are you charged w/ reviewing any previously unknown/undocumented 19th century card, or do you pick and choose what gets reviewed for facial recognition? What about 20th century stuff? And is this your "real job" or a side project job?

If it's your "real job", then I simply can't help but to quote Deuce Bigelow: "I'm gonna kill my guidance counselor!"

No one is charged with "reviewing any previously unknown..." - the world isn't that organized. The SABR Pictorial History Committee is charged with trying to maintain a correctly identified image index for major league players, coaches, umpires. However, SABR is a volunteer organization - you do what you want. My interest is 19thC and Deadball Era, so that what I write and post about.

You should say "facial comparison" as opposed to "facial recognition." Any perception of expertise on my part is based on published articles and net54 postings dating back to 2008. There are people who do that for a living working for major police departments, FBI, etc. I am not one of them, but I try to learn from them.

If you're really interested in all this, IMO - the best thing I have written on this subject can be found on pages 1-3 of:
http://sabr.box.com/shared/static/10...092a683653.pdf

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

You should say "facial comparison" as opposed to "facial recognition." Any perception of expertise on my part is based on published articles and net54 postings dating back to 2008.

BTW, I was quoting REA's description of you as a "facial-recognition expert". And I agree, there is absolutely no way that both players are Van Haltren!

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

...And how does one become a "noted facial-recognition expert"? Sounds cool. I'm just a regular schmoe that works for an insurance company. Doesn't sound cool.

Beats me. How does one become an uncool insurance guy?

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Beats me. How does one become an uncool insurance guy?

How to become an "uncool insurance guy":

Easy - grow up in Houston, graduate with a double major in Finance/ International Business at Georgetown University, swim for a few years while at school, injure your back and meet your swimming buddy's girlfriend's roommate from the bleachers at the swim meet you would otherwise be swimming in, fall in love, move to Boston to be with said girlfriend, but commute to Concord, NH where she and her family live by taking a two hour bus ride to/from Boston, meet an actuarial student on said bus, get offered a job, move full time to Boston, break up with girlfriend, date at least six more women in the Boston area, fall in love again, settle down with that one, make a baby, buy a house in the 'burbs, find a way to keep your job through four "restructurings" and two mergers/acquisitions and keep telling yourself: "how in the hell did I end up with this job??". That's how you do it my friend!

Well, you did ask.

I kinda think what you do is cool. Just wondering if you "fell into it" or if it's your passion. I'm guessing it's the latter, but how in the heck do you do it? And is there some huge database of head-shots somewhere??

[h2oya311]

I'm no "facial recognition expert", but it does look a lot like Daly, at least compared to the image that Scott provided.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I'm no "facial recognition expert", but it does look a lot like Daly, at least compared to the image that Scott provided.

Derek - I don't doubt that in your mind he resembles Daly. If that is the case, probably others also feel that way. However, with all due respect, that type of judgement is often wrong (you can read about it in my posted SABR link).

As for a comparison with Tom Daly, see below. Daly's ear is noticeably smaller (relative to the size of his head) from lobe to top of the ear.

The blue arrow points to a horizontal crease across Daly's chin (this is sometimes called a mentolabial groove). It is a persistent characteristic that some people have and some don't. For this who have it, it may be closer to or farther from the lower lip. The guy on the card doesn't have it, but he does appear to have a dimple just below hi lower lip that Daly does not have.

Daly has a turned up nose, the guy on the card does not.

These differences are significant and distinguish these men as two different persons.

Let me add that the man on the card does not appear on either the 1887 nor the 1888 Chi NL composites.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Rollingstone206

Perhaps its just camera angles giving an illusion to proportions? For example the first picture could have been taken slightly below instead of straight on and second picture being taken slightly above instead of straight on?

So, you're looking at your young friend who is fretting over his prematurely receding hairline. He is opting for Rogain, but you tell him all he has to do is tilt his head a little and his problem will go away.

[h2oya311]

Interesting that VCP already recognizes that the Yum Yum card does not portray Van Haltren.

[bmarlowe1]

This stuff never ceases to amaze me. What do ya' think? He sure parts his hair in the right place, he has the recessed area under his lower lip.

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Beats me. How does one become an uncool insurance guy?

By becoming an insurance guy

[Joe_G.]

Very interesting Mark.

Could this be Chicago teammate Tom Daly? Probably not since I suspect you already studied it against Daly images, but that is the first person I thought of when looking at the face.

[bmarlowe1]

Joe - It's not Daly. If it is a player, I don't think it's an easy one. The guy does have a distinctive face, so I would expect him to be recognizable, even with a mustache.

[kkkkandp]

Mark:

Interesting you brought this up.

As I was perusing the catalog initially and saw that the player was listed as Van Haltren I was skeptical, but just wrote it off as a poor knee-jerk reaction on my part simply because the pictured subject did not have a mustache and most of the Van Haltren images with which I am familiar show him with a mustache.

In the side-by-side comparison, however, the eyebrows, hair line and ears all look to be wrong for an image of Van Haltren.

Kevin

[Runscott]

There are plenty of mistakes from that period. Here's one of Mark's threads on the subject: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=119053



I also thought it looked kind of like Daly

[Bocabirdman]

This cannot be an exact science. After all, people DO change over the years.

18232-Dick_York.jpg

dick-sargent-70.jpg

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

This cannot be an exact science. After all, people DO change over the years.

Attachment 140008

Attachment 140009

That is funny . Be advised that some people reading your post won't get it and will think that those are the same person.

[Runscott]

If Mark says it's Moolic then I bet it's Moolic.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[oldjudge]

Credit should be given where credit is due--Peter Nash made the Moolic contribution. Also, Four Base Hits are not an 1886 issue as Kelly is shown on Boston. Just one other example--Marty Sullivan debuted in 1887 and he has a Four Base Hits card.

[Runscott]

.....

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Perhaps, but it's Mark's opinion that seals the deal for me.

Just to be clear - I opined that the card was not Van Haltren, and that if it was a ballplayer, it was very likely an obscure one. I checked through a bunch of 1887-1888 team photos and did not see anyone that was a good candidate for the card guy. Then I let it go.

Pete Nash subsequently sent me an email with a scan of a player from the 1886 Chi team photo. He said he thought this may be the guy. I agreed. I found a pretty good example in the 1984 SABR publication and was able to create a slightly more detailed scan. After looking at that in detail, I was nearly 100% convinced.