Braun Suspended for Balance of the 2013 Season

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ok, everybody regurgitating the "Braun got off on a technicality" meme please read this. Enlighten yourselves.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...nicality-bull/

I think Braun got tired of fighting. MLB accused him once, threatened to suspend him, he fought it tooth and nail, and his defense team proved their client's assertion. The independent arbiter looked at all the scientific evidence, notes from expert testimony...for months, and for the first time ever, overturned MLB's ban. Ok, whew. "Now, I can go on with my life again". Only MLB comes at him again. Threatens to ban him for 100 games, 150 games, or for life...and makes this information public through their little lap dog (ESPN). It became clear that MLB was going to do whatever it took to suspend Braun, even if it meant giving full immunity to the guys that supposedly sold these drugs to all the MLB players. There was no scientific evidence proving guilt, only the word of Anthony Bosch, a man when I see him on television, I feel like I have to take a shower. Oh, and the word of Bosch's employees. Very reliable, I'm sure. Enough to basically force Braun to bow down.

At what point does one just throw up their hands and say "enough is enough"? His reputation was already dragged through the mud. How much more was the guy going to fight?

Don't be so quick to vilify him until the facts come out (if they ever do).

You are joking right?
Bill, Braun admitted it! Didn't you read his statement....the MLBPA was PROUD that he admitted it....

I think you should stop posting in this thread.....

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Best reaction ever to Braun's suspension, Miami Marlins' Logan Morrison:

"You know we're clean. We haven't scored a run in 37 innings."

That is an all-time classic quote!

[67_Palmer]

I think MLB not releasing all of the details, is part of a deal they made with Braun for coming forward and admitting it, and possibly giving up important information to help snag the other suspected players.

[ScottFandango]

Just be happy your boy didn't get a lifetime ban like AROD is gonna get ...

He essentially got caught TWICE, which is enough for a lifetime ban...if it wasn't for the arbitrator who incorrectly sided with Braun, he would be gone forever!

That is why he got more than 50 games! MLB could have pushed for lifetime ban...He got VERY LUCKY and he knows it, that is why he ran from this with his (lying) tail between his legs...

He should give the MVP to Matt Kemp...

[jhs5120]

What an piece of trash. He's making millions, get's caught and blames the freaking lab tech (ruining his career) just so he could keep his lie going. Ridiculous.

Kudos to the MLB for investigating these accusations, buying evidence and playing hard ball on finding these pricks. I stand behind it 100%.

[howard38]

/

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

David, I never said "innocent". Again, I do think he used something. But MLB is clearly overzealous in their pursuit of Braun. How many times do you see somebody accused of a crime, vindicated, and then tried for the same thing again, by the same people? It doesn't happen in a criminal court system because jeopardy attaches. Now obviously, this is not a court system, but arbitration. But MLB didn't like the verdict they got when Braun appealed, so they decided to basically ignore it, and go after him again.

Remember when this story first broke? The initial article by ESPN was "Ryan Braun to be suspended for PED use". Shortly thereafter, the story changed, that "Braun will be banned for a banned substance, not a PED". Then the stories started coming out that Braun was taking a medication for herpes. STD medication and PEDs are not even remotely the same thing.

Where is the truth in this? All we know for sure is that Braun was to be suspended for a banned substance, that his testosterone levels were nearly three times higher than any professional athlete had ever tested before, and that he won his appeal by challenging the procedure in which his sample was handled. That doesn't mean his defense team couldn't have gone after the science. They pursued the line of defense that would most likely result in an overturn. It was hardly the only avenue available to them.

Now we know for a fact that Braun will be suspended for the remainder of the 2013 season. That's about all we really know. We don't know definitively what banned substance he took. We don't know what he was presented with by MLB.

I just hope that these "leaks" which served MLB so effectively will start disclosing the facts of the case. Let's see both sides.

ARE YOU RYAN BRAUN?

[brookdodger55]

As a ESPN Analyst Curt Shilling said yesterday, Take all of his stats especially on his Baseball Card and in the Official record and make them all O's. Maybe when he comes back with Zero stat's his new clean #'s will speak for themselves.
Mike

[Wite3]

Some things to consider...

I feel that much of the evidence is circumstantial...names on paper, invoices and receipts, logs, etc. They are asking for total immunity because they are possibly breaking several laws. Most notably, any Hippa laws that apply. If they are under the care of a doctor and proscribed a legal drug (that might be a banned substance) then those laws apply.

Some of the drugs might have been given illegally (without a doctor or r/x). Again, against the law and asking for immunity.

Biogenesis sounds more like a compounding pharmacy to me where they mixed drugs, compounds, and ??? to make new things. Legal? No one is sure...therefore they want immunity.

Greed made the people at Biogenesis do this, nothing more. They craved money first...now fame...I would not be surprised when the books come and movie rights are sold.

As to Braun...who cares whether it was performance enhancing or not. He used something illegal and lied about it. Is this the example you want for your children? It is okay to use or do something illegal as long as you do not get caught...but when you do, make sure to lie about it first and then faced with overwhelming evidence and pressure, beg for forgiveness.

They should void his contract (which they can probably legally do...because he lied, not because he used a banned substance) and go after portions of the previous contract when he was using said substance.

Just my opinions.

Joshua

[drmondobueno]

Braun's statement says loads. He admitted to "making mistakes"..... B S, he admitted nothing. He whines about his family. Boo hoo, poor him. His 'statement' was manufactured by the lawyers and the baseball machine that protects money and allows liars and cheaters to hide behind the union and process.

Anyone that does not recognize this needs to take off their rose colored glasses. I am not saying he does not have talent, he just cheats and uses the law to steal $100 million bucks.

Who is next? Hopefully 20 or 300 guys. Get it done.

Just my pissed off opinion.

Keith Temple

P S. and NO, I do not feel better now.

[brookdodger55]

When will MLB release the First list 2003 of Player's who tested positive many years ago. One person in charge then Bud Selig person in charge now Bug Selig anyone else see a pattern hear.
Mike

[iwantitiwinit]

Who even cares anymore. The admission is a joke, the penalties are a joke, MLB's and the player association's cya and spin is a joke, the game is a joke. There are only 2 solutions:

1) Allow anything, let players do what they want and let them suffer the consequences physical (health) and/or legal; or

2) Institute a lifetime ban if caught once.

I vote for number 2 since they are obviously children and can't make any rational judgements for themselves plus I would like to see the circus that would ensure when someone gets caught.

[brookdodger55]

+100 totally agree MLB a Total Disgrace.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

[/b]

You are joking right?
Bill, Braun admitted it! Didn't you read his statement....the MLBPA was PROUD that he admitted it....

I think you should stop posting in this thread.....

Of course I read his statement. Show me where he has ever admitted specifically to using PEDs.

"As I have acknowledged in the past, I am not perfect," Braun said in a statement. "I realize now that I have made some mistakes. I am willing to accept the consequences of those actions. This situation has taken a toll on me and my entire family, and it has been a distraction to my teammates and the Brewers organization. I am very grateful for the support I have received from players, ownership and the fans in Milwaukee and around the country.

I do not see the words "I used PED" anywhere in that statement.

CBS has the headline: "Ryan Braun admits PED use, suspended for rest of 2013"

Then they start the article off with "Braun admitted using performance-enhancing drugs, though he did not give any specifics."

The headline and that statement contradict each other. A player coming out and saying "I used steroids" is an admission of using steroids. A player saying "I made some mistakes" is a blanket statement that leaves a lot open to interpretation. Sports sites like ESPN, Yahoo and CBS can report it how they want. And maybe they're right. Maybe it's an 80 or 90% chance he used performance enhancers. But until the language is undeniable, I will still allow for the slim possibility that Braun used something else.

Who am I supposed to believe? ESPN? Major League Baseball, who's in bed with these lowlifes at Biogenesis? If a dog lies down with fleas, they're going to get bitten. So, show me the proof, otherwise there's always going to be doubt, and justifiably so.

You guys can call me a homer, or say that I'm wearing rose-colored glasses all you want. I've done a lot of research on the science involved in drug testing. Braun got off on a technicality? Or, maybe they screwed up his sample. Is it not possible?

Everybody was so sure Diane Modhal was cheating, too. The track and field star was found to have abnormal levels of testosterone in her system, and they basically ran over her the same way MLB has run over Braun. It was later proven that the laboratory mishandled her sample. She was exonerated. So maybe the collector in Braun's case didn't purposely screw with his sample. The opportunity was there. He's a Cubs fan, and if you guys are going to tell me that nobody would do something like that based on an allegiance to a team, I'd show you a tape of the Giants fan that got beaten by Dodgers fans because he was wearing his team's colors at Dodger Stadium. Even if he didn't mess with the sample, he did not do his job properly. Period. When procedures are not followed, the sample is considered tainted. And when you exclude that sample, you look at all the other samples Braun has given, all of which have been clean.

If baseball's case against Braun were in a criminal court, it would get laughed out of the courtroom. No physical or scientific proof whatsoever. Their entire case basically resides in the testimony of a bunch of lowlifes that baseball would have gone after were it not for their agreeing to testify against the MLB players under investigation.

[iwantitiwinit]

If not guilty then why accept the ban. No way I ever admit to something I didnt do. His motivation for accepting a ban is once again predicated on money. He will be making more next year than this year so his reduction in take home would be greater next year under a ban. I would bet that is his sole motivation not the fact that his team is out of it this year. Why would we think its anything different.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Of course I read his statement. Show me where he has ever admitted specifically to using PEDs.



I do not see the words "I used PED" anywhere in that statement.

CBS has the headline: "Ryan Braun admits PED use, suspended for rest of 2013"

Then they start the article off with "Braun admitted using performance-enhancing drugs, though he did not give any specifics."

The headline and that statement contradict each other. A player coming out and saying "I used steroids" is an admission of using steroids. A player saying "I made some mistakes" is a blanket statement that leaves a lot open to interpretation. Sports sites like ESPN, Yahoo and CBS can report it how they want. And maybe they're right. Maybe it's an 80 or 90% chance he used performance enhancers. But until the language is undeniable, I will still allow for the slim possibility that Braun used something else.

Who am I supposed to believe? ESPN? Major League Baseball, who's in bed with these lowlifes at Biogenesis? If a dog lies down with fleas, they're going to get bitten. So, show me the proof, otherwise there's always going to be doubt, and justifiably so.

You guys can call me a homer, or say that I'm wearing rose-colored glasses all you want. I've done a lot of research on the science involved in drug testing. Braun got off on a technicality? Or, maybe they screwed up his sample. Is it not possible?

Everybody was so sure Diane Modhal was cheating, too. The track and field star was found to have abnormal levels of testosterone in her system, and they basically ran over her the same way MLB has run over Braun. It was later proven that the laboratory mishandled her sample. She was exonerated. So maybe the collector in Braun's case didn't purposely screw with his sample. The opportunity was there. He's a Cubs fan, and if you guys are going to tell me that nobody would do something like that based on an allegiance to a team, I'd show you a tape of the Giants fan that got beaten by Dodgers fans because he was wearing his team's colors at Dodger Stadium. Even if he didn't mess with the sample, he did not do his job properly. Period. When procedures are not followed, the sample is considered tainted. And when you exclude that sample, you look at all the other samples Braun has given, all of which have been clean.

If baseball's case against Braun were in a criminal court, it would get laughed out of the courtroom. No physical or scientific proof whatsoever. Their entire case basically resides in the testimony of a bunch of lowlifes that baseball would have gone after were it not for their agreeing to testify against the MLB players under investigation.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Some people choose to see the world through rose colored glasses...

[conor912]

I think they should make PEDs mandatory for every player. That will solve this whole "fairness" debate once and for all.

[autograf]

I agree with the sentiment that I would be surprised if ANYONE was not cheating in MLB. The whole thing is a sham unfortunately. There are chemists out there right now mixing stuff that likely is undetectable in the range of testing that MLB employs and there are players pulling their pants down for a shot. I agree we need to just make it wide open or ban after first instance. It has become an embarrassment...........

[ScottFandango]

Quote:
"As I have acknowledged in the past, I am not perfect," Braun said in a statement. "I realize now that I have made some mistakes. I am willing to accept the consequences of those actions. This situation has taken a toll on me and my entire family, and it has been a distraction to my teammates and the Brewers organization. I am very grateful for the support I have received from players, ownership and the fans in Milwaukee and around the country.

He realized it NOW because he got caught...If MLB never bought all the evidence, he would NOT HAVE REALIZED IT....this means he believed his own lies.its amazing how money can "self brainwash" someone....


The "support he RECEIVED (past tense)" from people,he LIED TO on numerous occasions...seeing his winter 2012 interview makes me Vomit...I'll give him this:

He is an AMAZING LIER

[markf31]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I do not see the words "I used PED" anywhere in that statement.

I also do not see the words "I did not use PEDs" or "I used a banned substance that was not a PED" or anything along those lines anywhere in that statement either, which you would think if he was trying to semi-exonerate(?) himself he would have mentioned.

Sometimes what someone doesn't say, is just as damning as something they do say.

It's also interesting to note that when the suspension was overturned last year, he couldn't get in front of a camera quick enough to pronounce and glorify his innocence and vindication. Yet this time around it comes out as a simple statement provided to the media, no press conference, no cameras.

[nolemmings]

on Oct. 19, 2011, he said he told the players association: "I promise you on anything that's ever meant anything to me in my life, the morals, the virtues, the values by which I've lived in my 28 years on this planet, I did not do this."

I wish that MLB required Braun to allocute if he wanted to avoid a hearing and potential stiffer suspension. Maybe our criminal defense attorneys can chime in here--perhaps an allocution in this setting is off-limits because it could be used against him in future criminal proceedings. That would also explain why Braun dances around any specifics.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Some people choose to see the world through rose colored glasses...

Deny deny deny. If Braun did nothing then he should fight it. I'm sure if ESPN was making false allegations then Braun should sue them. Just a thought.

[steve B]

I guess this won't make anyone happy, but here's my take on things.

Baseball tests for a lot of stuff. There's a decent list on wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_L...ll_drug_policy

Some of what they test for is not performance enhancing. Some certainly is, some ....Some I have no idea what the heck it is. I can't see some of the stimulants enhancing erformance - Meth? Maybe a time or two, but not long term.

I do know that a poppy seed bagel can lead to a positive test for opiates, which are banned. Ephedrine in cold medecine is also banned.

The comment that they can't say what was detected because of both the CBA and HIPAA is correct. So unless Braun gets into details we'll never know.

I'd like to think that if it was something stupid like cold medecine or poppy seeds they'd give him a break. (There's precedent, the snowboard kid who tested positive for pot at the olympics claimed secondary contact and got a pass because the levels made sense.)

Him not releasing details makes it look worse.

Some of the results CAN be altered if the sample is mishandled. Without knowing the substance, we can't know if the earlier positive was one that could be affected, or if it was purely a proceedural problem.

Lance DID have a positive test publicly overturned, a 1999 positive for corticosteroid that he blamed on saddle sore ointment.

And like Braun, he passed a number of tests. A few failures were hidden through bribery be Nike. (Surprised nobody has been banned or arrested for that)

A lot of commonly used medications or products are on the WADA list. There are a number of cases outlined on their site when discussing suspensions and fairness. http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Wo..._Article10.pdf

One is a tennis player banned for a year for a hair restoration product he'd used for years. He just never checked the list when it got added.

Some substances are ok with a medical waiver. Concerta is becoming more common in the NFL.

I'm fairly sure that most of us, especially those if us who are older would not pass a drug test used for international competition. Especially anyone using vitamin supplements.

Maybe the ban is fair, maybe not. I think that with testing being somewhat new in MLB there's a learning curve about what ordinary stuff will cause a positive test. And that using clinics like biogenesis is very risky.

Steve B

Steve B

[kmac32]

Did some reading and Braun's first red flag in 2011 was due to an elevated testosterone level found upon testing. That alone is highly suggestive of PED use even if the sample was not handled according to the MLB guidelines. Too bad MLB didn't get on top of things and due further testing to confirm the suspicion back in 2011. His current admission indicates the initial testing was accurate.

[cubsfan-budman]

He can't say that he used PEDs because many of them are not just banned by baseball, but they're illegal...meaning if he admitted he used them, he could go to jail.

You won't hear what he did until his memoirs come out in 30 years.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

He can't say that he used PEDs because many of them are not just banned by baseball, but they're illegal...meaning if he admitted he used them, he could go to jail.

You won't hear what he did until his memoirs come out in 30 years.

I just can't wait......

Maybe the Feds will go after him for transporting illegal substances across state borders and make him the next BONDZ...That would make a good read

[drcy]

A lot of players get in trouble for illegally taking prescription medicine-- meaning taking it without a doctor's prescription. Steroids and HGH are legal if and only if prescribed by a physician. And, in fact, MLB does on rare occasion allow players to take steroids or HGH if they have legitimate, physician identified medical reason that requires the treatment. In recent years one actively playing MLB player was allowed to use HGH because he had a genetic medical condition.

Duly note that federal law states that steroids cannot be prescribed for athletic performance reasons.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by drcy

A lot of players get in trouble for illegally taking prescription medicine-- meaning taking it without a doctor's prescription. Steroids and HGH are legal IF prescribed by an physician. And, in fact, MLB has allowed at least one player to take HGH, because he had a legitimate medical reason.

Prescription pain killers are taken legally in the US everyday. But normal citizens do go to jail for forging prescriptions to get them.

Lastly, federal law states tat steroids cannot be prescribed for athletic performance. Any use of them for athletic performance is by definition against the law.

My point exactly.....

[ScottFandango]

He was known to be taking steroids (special testosterone blend) from tony Bosch..this is fact according to reporters following this for tears


END OF STORY. PED USER CAUGHT AFTER DENYING AND THROWING PEOPLE UNDER THE BUS WHO WERE INNOCENT

[Fred]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

.....Ryan Braun's urine sample was taken home by the collector...

Was the collector anybody on this board? Hell, people collect everything these days....

Sadly, Kemp probably should have been the MVP when Braun was given the honor... in any case, I don't think the award should be taken from him becuase then you might as well go back to Barry's MVP awards and trash those also. I'm sure there are others that can have their awards (MVP, Cy Young, etc) taken but the fact is the stats are in the books. However, going forward it would be nice to see a "cleaned up" version of baseball, even without all of the HRs. A little small ball is fun to watch.

It would just be nice to see ALL of the clean players step up to the plate and call "bull $hit" on the players that cheat. Have the players in the union agree to heavy suspensions or expulsion if the player is caught cheating. A nice level playing field would be nice. - just my 2 cents...

[the 'stache]

I can't disagree with a single thing you've said, Mark. And I think what everybody else has said is also spot on. To be honest, I'm just exhausted by this whole thing. Maybe I'm not thinking clearly. I know he did something wrong. I want to know specifically what that was. No more speculation, no more "well, he admitted to it but wasn't specific". Enough! A criminal has to allocute before accepting a plea bargain. The fans that have been through the ringer with this whole thing deserve the truth.

I guess I just want him to stop screwing around, and tell us what really happened. No more filtering your words through some lawyer's office at $500 an hour. Tell us what you took. Tell us why you did it. Be honest, for God's sake. My opinion of his has been damaged, but if I'm ever going to forgive the guy, he needs to come clean.

Originally Posted by markf31

I also do not see the words "I did not use PEDs" or "I used a banned substance that was not a PED" or anything along those lines anywhere in that statement either, which you would think if he was trying to semi-exonerate(?) himself he would have mentioned.

Sometimes what someone doesn't say, is just as damning as something they do say.

It's also interesting to note that when the suspension was overturned last year, he couldn't get in front of a camera quick enough to pronounce and glorify his innocence and vindication. Yet this time around it comes out as a simple statement provided to the media, no press conference, no cameras.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

I posted this years ago, I thought he was surely on something by the LOOK OF HIS EYES....he has that drug induced "pinned open eyes " where his entire iris was visible...looked like he had a "shocked" look on his face all the time...this is not a normal look and I thought he was on speed/uppers but it was way more than that

Sorry, but that seems like a real stretch. Not saying you didn't believe he was using well before all this, but that reasoning is pretty "loose" to say the least. My guess is when this is all over, his eyes will look much the same as before.

I guess Reche Caldwell, and any other big/wide eyed athletes are on the juice too?

theeyes9zx_display_image.jpg

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I wish that MLB required Braun to allocute if he wanted to avoid a hearing and potential stiffer suspension. Maybe our criminal defense attorneys can chime in here--perhaps an allocution in this setting is off-limits because it could be used against him in future criminal proceedings. That would also explain why Braun dances around any specifics.

That's spooky, Todd. I made my prior post before reading anything on the next page, including your post.

By the time these players do get caught, they've secured their million. A suspension is just a slap on the wrist. They might lose some endorsements, but by then, they've got more money than they should ever need.

MLB wants to rid the sport of these steroids? Instead of suspending a player for 50 or 100 games, threaten to ban them for life unless they publicly allocute to what they used. Some players won't care. But the shame that comes with having to stand in front of the press, with all the cameras, and telling the world what you've done...that could be a powerful deterrent. It would sure knock these players down a few notches.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by kmac32

Did some reading and Braun's first red flag in 2011 was due to an elevated testosterone level found upon testing. That alone is highly suggestive of PED use even if the sample was not handled according to the MLB guidelines. Too bad MLB didn't get on top of things and due further testing to confirm the suspicion back in 2011. His current admission indicates the initial testing was accurate.

Elevated testosterone alone is not an indication of drug use. Some people have medical conditions that naturally produce high levels of testosterone. Hyperthyroidism, for one. Now of course, if an athlete has one of these conditions, you'd think they would report it to MLB. Failing to do so would not be a sufficient reason for having a suspension overturned.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Sorry, but that seems like a real stretch. Not saying you didn't believe he was using well before all this, but that reasoning is pretty "loose" to say the least. My guess is when this is all over, his eyes will look much the same as before.

I guess Reche Caldwell, and any other big/wide eyed athletes are on the juice too?

Attachment 107619

It is a stretch. I have very slightly recessed sockets because of my osteogenesis imperfecta. I also have blue-tinted sclera, and I certainly have never used any performance enhancing drugs.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

He was known to be taking steroids (special testosterone blend) from tony Bosch..this is fact according to reporters following this for tears


END OF STORY. PED USER CAUGHT AFTER DENYING AND THROWING PEOPLE UNDER THE BUS WHO WERE INNOCENT

Show me a story where these reporters have stated factually that Braun was using some special blend of testosterone from Tony Bosch. Because when I Google Ryan Braun Tony Bosch and special blend, the only result I see that has a "special blend", or a "special testosterone blend" is your post. I don't see one more article anywhere in the first three pages. If this were a fact, this would be all over the internet.

So, please, link me to even one story where a reporter has gone on the record stating "it is fact that Bosh supplied Braun with a special blend of testosterone".

[drcy]

I think it was a special blend of Kool Aid. Only sold in Wisconsin.

[ALR-bishop]

Glad you pointed all that out Bill, or no telling what any of us may have thought if we ever meet you in person

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by drcy

I think it was a special blend of Kool Aid. Only sold in Wisconsin.

Drat, I used to drink Kool Aid when I lived in Wisconsin. I better not apply for a job with Major League Baseball. ol' Bud will have me thrown off the premises.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Glad you pointed all that out Bill, or no telling what any of us may have thought if we ever meet you in person

No problem, Al. It's not very noticeable, as it's not pronounced. If I look worried, be assured it's because I'm nervous about something, and not because I'm shooting up testosterone, lol. It's usually noticeable in people with the more severe forms of OI. But the blue sclera always draws a crowd when I'm in a hospital or doctor's office. Usually a bunch of people will come in, and look in my eyes. I'm cool with it, as my condition is pretty rare, and it helps them learn. I like to tell them I'm a mutant, as neither of my parents carried the genetic marker. I should be in the next X-Men movie. Maybe they could hook me up with Jennifer Lawrence

[drcy]

I'm from Wisconsin and grew up a Brewers fan. I just know that when there's latest serious PED rumor (that later turns out to be true) the home town fans go into a state of self denial, or a state of denying the obvious, about their hometown player and swear on a stack of bible's he's innocent and wrongly accused. Happened with Giants fans Barry Bonds, happened Cardinals fans and McGwire and happened with Brewers fans and Braun. If Bonds played with the A's, those same Giants fans would have said he was a cheater. If Braun played for the Boston Red Sox, the same Brewers fans would have said he was guilty. That's the way it invariably works.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Show me a story where these reporters have stated factually that Braun was using some special blend of testosterone from Tony Bosch. Because when I Google Ryan Braun Tony Bosch and special blend, the only result I see that has a "special blend", or a "special testosterone blend" is your post. I don't see one more article anywhere in the first three pages. If this were a fact, this would be all over the internet.

So, please, link me to even one story where a reporter has gone on the record stating "it is fact that Bosh supplied Braun with a special blend of testosterone".

Check out TJ QUINN'S podcast with mike and mike...I think you will find its eye opening Bill.....TJ is an investigative reporter who has been following Braun for a year or so...he said they uncovered an EXTENSIVE DOPING PROGRAM by BRAUN mainly involving a special testosterone blend made by Bosch ...the evidence was so overwhelming that Braun ran away yesterday without one public appearance....

[the 'stache]

I know who TJ Quinn is.

It might come out, but I'm just going by what I'm seeing online. Nothing as of yet. If it sheds some light on what was really going on, though, that's a good thing. Let it all come out, in my opinion, and let's see some humility from Braun for once.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I know who TJ Quinn is.

It might come out, but I'm just going by what I'm seeing online. Nothing as of yet. If it sheds some light on what was really going on, though, that's a good thing. Let it all come out, in my opinion, and let's see some humility from Braun for once.

TQ has been speaking just today in regards to this mess...a lot of his words have not been put into written form yet so they could show up in a Search...

He also appeared on Espn this morning and stated why I said....EXTENSIVE TESTOSTERONE DOPING PROGRM THAT LASTED YEARS.... He compared that to Pettitte who he said only used once to get back from injury quicker....

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by drcy

I'm from Wisconsin and grew up a Brewers fan. I just know that when there's latest serious PED rumor (that later turns out to be true) the home town fans go into a state of self denial, or a state of denying the obvious, about their hometown player and swear on a stack of bible's he's innocent and wrongly accused. Happened with Giants fans Barry Bonds, happened Cardinals fans and McGwire and happened with Brewers fans and Braun. If Bonds played with the A's, those same Giants fans would have said he was a cheater. If Braun played for the Boston Red Sox, the same Brewers fans would have said he was guilty. That's the way it invariably works.

As A Giants fan, I know that I and most of my friends were not in any state of denial over Bonds or BALCO... Nor were we about Marvin Benard, Armando Rios and FP Santangelo. What drove me nuts is that it seemed like almost all focus was on a half dozen or fewer players, when seemingly the majority of the league was using.

Clearly Bonds was the best hitter of the bunch and was approaching MLB's most hallowed record.. But I thought then and still think now, the bigger problem lies with fringe players. Guys who feel compelled to use because "the other guy is, and he'll take my roster spot". There are many many more of those players (hundreds to thousands) affected by steroids than there are upper tier. Chasing the stars makes headlines, and needs to be done.. But something needs to be done to protect those 24th-25th men, or 4A type players that are forced to make those decisions early on. SI did a great artcicle on these types of player about a year ago.

Re- Bonds, I believe he used, but I also believe what he did was amazing. I accept it may have been sacreligious to most of the MLB fan base, but remember he was hitting 450 bombs off juiced pitchers (see Eric Gagne) throwing triple digits by virtue of that juice. Though very tough to quantify, it seems overall fastball MPH has gone down in the past few years. Steroids or not, the baseball seen in the 90's to early 2000's was possibly the fastest, strongest, most powerful game we'll ever see played. That said, I'm a far bigger fan of the pitching and defense dominated style of play exhibited by the 2010 and 2012 Giants.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I accept it may have been sacreligious to most of the MLB fan base, but remember he was hitting 450 bombs off juiced pitchers (see Eric Gagne) throwing triple digits by virtue of that juice.

Not justifying Bonds, McGwire (etc), but this is a fact that many seem to forget or choose to ignore completely. Pitchers were juicing as well. If you remove Bonds records, how many strikeouts do you remove from Clemens career totals (etc, etc, etc)?

[HRBAKER]

He said he made some mistakes, how much more humble could you be?
Maybe he could go on Oprah. This isn't about humility, this is about getting caught with your pants down and how long it will take people to forget what your a** looks like.

[Exhibitman]

If the union and league were serious about cleaning up the game the remedy for a positive would include granting the team the option of voiding the balance of the player's contract and lifetime random WADA-style testing for the balance of the player's time in MLB. A suspension doesn't mean squat to a guy like Braun who can strategize to lessen the impact of the suspension and remain on a massive long-term contract. Heck, he can use the rest of the season to rest up, train and cycle steroid regimens [I kid the Braunmeister] in preparation for next year.

[steve B]

Stiff penalties won't stop it. I doubt much will.

A few quotes from another sport, one that began testing in the 60's, and has fairly stiff penalties. And STILL has people removed from its premier event every year.

"The top riders are obliged to be fresh each time and they can't do that without stimulants. Nobody could or ever will be able to do that because there are no such things as supermen. Doping is necessary in cycling."

Rik van Steenbergen, a top pro in the 40s and 50s

"My closets now will be empty of syringes and prohibited substances. The majority of racers resort to drug products, and those who refuse to admit it are liars."

Dietrich Thurau, many pro wins in 70s and 80s

"I do not wish to hear spoken the word doping. Rather, one must say 'treating yourself,' and speak of treatments that are not appropriate for ordinary mortals. You cannot compete in the Tour de France on mineral water alone."

Jacques Anquetil, Won TDF five times in 50s and 60s

"In 1924, the legendary Pelissier brothers-noted as much for their brutal attacks on the road as their criticism of Tour organizers-abandoned the race over what they considered to be an unfair ruling. Pélissier, Francis and another rider, Maurice Ville, abandoned the Tour at Coutances in 1924 after Desgrange had not let Pélissier to take off a jersey as the sun came up. They were met in the station café by the journalist Albert Londres, who normally wrote about social and international affairs but was following the Tour for Le Petit Parisien. Londres' piece, reproduced largely as a dialogue, appeared under the headline Les Forçats de la Route.
"You wouldn't believe that all this is about nothing more than a few jerseys. This morning, in Cherbourg, a race official came up to me and without a word, he pulled up my jersey to check that I'm not wearing two. What would you say if I pulled open your waistcoat to see if your shirt was clean? That's the way these people behave and I won't stand for it. That's what this is all about." "But what if you were wearing two jerseys?" "That's the point. If I want to, I can wear 15. What I can't do is start with two and finish with only one." "Why not?" "Because that's the rule. We don't only have to work like donkeys, we have to freeze or suffocate as well. Apparently that's an important part of the sport. So I went off to find Desgrange. 'I can't throw my jersey on the road, then?' 'No,' he said, 'you can't throw away anything provided by the organisation.' 'But this isn't the organisation's—it's mine.' "'I don't conduct arguments in the street,' he said. 'OK,' I said, 'if you're not prepared to talk about it in the street, I'm going back to bed.' "'We'll sort it all out in Brest', he said. It will definitely be sorted out in Brest, I said, because I'm quitting. And I did."
Pélissier went to his brother, Francis, told him his decision and encouraged him to do the same. Francis said that suited him because he had a bad stomach and no enthusiasm for racing. Ville said he hadn't been part of the strike but that the other two had picked him up along the road. He was too tired to go on, he said.
"You have no idea what the Tour de France is,' Henri said. "It's a calvary. And what's more, the way to the cross only had 14 stations — we've got 15.[7] We suffer on the road. But do you want to see how we keep going? Wait...' From his bag he takes a phial. "That, that's cocaine for our eyes and chloroform for our gums..." "Here," said Ville, tipping out the contents of his bag, "horse liniment to keep my knees warm. And pills? You want to see the pills?" They got out three boxes apiece. "In short," said Francis, "we run on dynamite.' Henri takes up the story. "You ever seen the baths at the finish? It's worth buying a ticket. You go in plastered with mud and you come out as white as a sheet. We're drained all the time by diarrhoea. Have a look at the water. We can't sleep at night. We're twitching as if we've got St Vitus's Dance. You see my shoelaces? They're leather, as hard as nails, but they're always breaking. So imagine what happens to our skin. And our toenails. I've lost six. They fall off a bit at a time all through the stage. They wouldn't treat mules the way we're treated. We're not weaklings, but my God, they treat us so brutally. And if I so much as stick a newspaper under my jersey at the start, they check to see it's still there at the finish. One day they'll start putting lumps of lead in our pocket because God made men too light."
Londres had the best colour piece he'd ever written, although Francis claimed afterwards they'd taken advantage of his gullibility by exaggerating.*

*It should be noted that the Pellissiers were know for having an odd sense of humor, some think the entire thing was a put -on.


The earliest case in cycling was 1886.

Steve B

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

So now Ryan Braun and Barry Bonds have failed the same number of drug tests. By your logic Bonds is even more innocent than Braun because he never admitted to anything.

[QUOTE=the 'stache;1161727]I'm very disappointed that Ryan used something he should not have, and whatever the suspension is (65 games, the remainder of the season, iirc), it is completely justified. What Ryan has done is an embarrassment to the game I love, the franchise I have followed since childhood, and it bothers me on a personal level. I hate that he did something against the rules, and that he has lied about it. But, I also hope at some point the truth comes out, because right now, speculation is running rampant. Media outlets are still running stories still filled with a lot of half-truths and conjecture. Things like "Braun has admitted to using PED". Nowhere has he done this. He did not admit to using PED in the statement he issued today. In fact, it was reported several times after the story first broke that he was going to be suspended not for PED, but for a banned substance, which could be one of a hundred different things.

The "his MVP should be taken away" talk is ridiculous. The MVP is a regular season award, and there is no proof whatsoever that Braun used anything before the postseason of 2011. He passed every single drug test while in the minor leagues, and every test administered from 2007 through the 2011 regular season. As for his "getting off on a technicality", no, he didn't. There are carefully established protocols for handling biological specimens used in the drug testing program, and if they are not followed, it is proper to throw that sample out, and not employ any of the testing results in furthering punitive action. Ryan Braun's urine sample was taken home by the collector, and placed in a Tupperware container in his basement for two days when it was clear there were several Fed Ex locations open between the collector's home and Miller Park (including at least one that took shipments 24 hours a day). Dino Laurenzi did not follow procedure. There is no debating this. Once it was determined that proper handling requirements had not been followed, the sample should have been destroyed. Period. Any test results from the sample are in essence fruit from the poisonous tree.

I have felt from the beginning that there was a strong possibility Ryan did not use a performance enhancer, but something that would help heal the calf muscle injury he'd been suffering with for much of the 2011 season's second half. By the letter of the drug policy agreed upon by MLB and the MLBPA, it wouldn't matter, as it's still breaking the rules, but I could at least understand that, if not condone it.

Right now, I am angry, and disappointed. He could, of course, be guilty of everything he's been accused of. But absent the facts (facts like the written opinion of independent arbiter Shyam Sad), we really don't know everything that happened. He might have been cheating all along, or he might have taken something to heal, not expecting to get tested before the post season. Who knows. But this talk of Ryan Braun being a "scum bag" is a little over the top. I am sure every single one of us have done something we wish we could go back and do differently. I know I have. But Braun is not some low life. He did something stupid, for which he should absolutely serve his suspension. But human beings make mistakes, and if he asks for forgiveness, and truly regrets what he did, I for one will forgive him, and cheer for him again. I hope he's learned from his mistake. More than anything, I am glad that this is now over.[/QUOTE]