The Oaks Show and SGC Grading

[cfc1909]

here is the Cy Young from the MD find for comparison- SGC was very hard on some tobacco cards that were pack fresh and that were packed away for many many years

Lot11a_med.jpg

[bobbyw8469]

Ask for my money back? I paid them $1800+ and had to pop 50% of the cards. I can't ask them for the money back, I paid for a service and they provided it. It was just a PISS POOR service!

Dan...I had the exact same thing happen to me with some Mutoscopes I had that came from vending. These things looked pratically brand new!! I got them back and ended up getting grades like '4's and '5's. A complete joke! I wound up cracking every single one out and selling them raw. If I had kept them in their holders, I would have gotten torched, as they wouldn't have brought anything, and the buyers would have gotten blazers for peanuts. Something has changed over there - and it hasn't been for the better.

[danmckee]

Holy BeJesus! I think I am bleeding. Check the corner of my mouth. A feeding frenzy way cool! I am glad I was able to bring so many people closer together at my expense. See, and you didn't think I had an objective. Any publicity is good publicity?

In closing, I would like to say that several years ago, I found an original T206 find down in the Fells Point area of Baltimore. Loaded with South League players and most of the cards were in great shape!

I sent 600+ cards to SGC and Scott graded most I believe. I didn't have a complaint about a single card. Scott even said to me "WOW" all of those cards and not a complaint. I felt they were graded perfectly and I still have about a dozen of them. 5s 6s and 7s I believe.

Anyway, I actually felt a couple were over graded by 1 grade. The green Cobb was holdered a 5 and I thought it was a 4.

So maybe standards have changed, grades are much tougher, who knows.

I am glad most of you enjoyed a healthy chat.

Jay Miller! Thanks for asking about pops. We had a 90th birthday party for him 2 weeks ago though he actually hits 90 on the 22nd of this month. He was very happy to hear that you asked about him.

Hopefully I will start posting the Old Judges next week.

Dan

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

...
I sent 600+ cards...I didn't have a complaint about a single card.
...

perhaps there's a relationship

[oldjudge]

Dan-90 years old-God bless him. Send me an email at jay.l.miller@jpmorgan.com ,if you could, with his address as I'd love to send him a card.

[wonkaticket]

Danny I feel your pain brother a thousand plus cards later and 5k+ lighter in the pocket and I too am left scratching my head on some of the grades.

Look I get it I’m sure under any loop little tiny wrinkles can be seen but….have we really come to this that we are now picking cards based upon microscopic flaws unseen to the naked eye? I know I’m not…I challenge you to find better examples of these cards below. Flip or not these are some of the most pack fresh cards you will see in regard to Obaks especially the 1909’s.




Now don’t get me wrong I got lots of 7’s and 6’s and 5’s but I have to chuckle when I have 3’s & 4’s that are nicer than the 5’s and the 6’s that were returned.

I agree harsh grading isn’t good grading. I think holdings cards 100+ years old to standards of modern multi produced cards is and has always been a bit silly.

This whole wacky system has only amplified the trimmed card phenomenon. Look I know trimming has been going on awhile to guys like Copeland back in the day. But once grading came in and opened up the world to a bigger buying pool for crazy graded cards then it was razors away.

Don’t believe me for those of you who are newer to the hobby how often do you see oversized cards like below now?



Not often but they were very common when I collected now they are the black rhino of the card world.

When I think of all the amazing specimens that have been hacked, soaked and shucked over the years in the pursuit of a flip it makes me kind of sad.

Cheers,

John

[pgellis]

Wow John!
Were those Obaks sent in all at the same time? If they were, then I assume they were all being graded by the same person. How can there be that much difference (SGC70 to SGC50) with some of those? Some of those 50s look just as good as the 70s, if not better.

I collect only SGC graded T206s, as opposed to PSA, because I like the way they look in the holder. I have only sent in raw cards once or twice to SGC and have been very disappointed with the grades. Several were "A" for trimming when I was about as sure as I could be on one of the cards that it was never trimmed. Oh well.

As someone else said recently, I wish the grading standards were just "U" for Unaltered and "A" for Altered......or something like that and then let the buyer decide how much they like the card.

The only reason I buy graded cards now is that I buy about 99% of my cards online (eBay, BST, auction houses, etc.) and the first several that I bought online raw, were Trimmed. Therefore, I needed a TPG to tell me it was unaltered before I was going to send money to someone on the other side of the country.

[wonkaticket]

"Wow John! Were those Obaks sent in all at the same time? If they were, then I assume they were all being graded by the same person. How can there be that much difference (SGC70 to SGC50) with some of those? Some of those 50s look just as good as the 70s, if not better"

Phil, I'm still tring to figure this out myself.....I wish I knew and yes I dropped off over 1000+ cards all at the same time.

Fun, fun, fun...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

"Wow John! Were those Obaks sent in all at the same time? If they were, then I assume they were all being graded by the same person. How can there be that much difference (SGC70 to SGC50) with some of those? Some of those 50s look just as good as the 70s, if not better"

Phil, I'm still tring to figure this out myself.....I wish I knew and yes I dropped off over 1000+ cards all at the same time.

Fun, fun, fun...

I've had the same experience with SGC. In past discussions I think the board consensus was that large submitters and dealers were simply treated better. Same for PSA - probably even moreso, plus some were able to get trimmed cards put in holders. No telling how many of those are circulating now - another good reason never to crack a NM PSA card. But checking the NM PSA cards in the current Legendary auction, you don't have to worry about that - many of them even have slightly rounded corners (Cobb bat off, for instance)

I was hoping the situation had changed, but it's still a wreck dealing with slabbed cards.

[kcohen]

Those Obaks are beautiful! Under sufficiently high magnification, most any card looks like crap.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by kcohen

Those Obaks are beautiful! Under sufficiently high magnification, most any card looks like crap.

They must have used an electron microscope! John, those Obaks are beautiful.

[Cardboard Junkie]

All TPG Companys are a CANCER ON THE HOBBY!

Raw Rules Graded Drools!

Hey! Jim Orlando! Give this man his 900 Bucks back!!

Dave.

[rdixon1208]

I've been hanging around here for three years now and this is the first thread that I've read where a collector tells another collector that my collection "will trash yours". I don't care who you're friends with or how long you've been in the hobby...this is really lame.

Robert Dixon

[Vegas-guy]

Its sad to hear that so many people hate the way the hobby has gone with TPG co. I would love to have nice "raw" cards but with 99% of cards being sold online now how, where, and who can you trust now days for quality "raw" cards??? Short of cracking every card out I don't see myself spending big $$$ on high grade/big name cards...
And then I don't want to crack them in case I want to sell or trade, then the next person is thinking the same thing, is this card trimmed, alt. etc

[Vol]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

I've been hanging around here for three years now and this is the first thread that I've read where a collector tells another collector that my collection "will trash yours". I don't care who you're friends with or how long you've been in the hobby...this is really lame.

Robert Dixon

+1
Couldnt agree more.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Vegas-guy

Its sad to hear that so many people hate the way the hobby has gone with TPG co. I would love to have nice "raw" cards but with 99% of cards being sold online now how, where, and who can you trust now days for quality "raw" cards??? Short of cracking every card out I don't see myself spending big $$$ on high grade/big name cards...
And then I don't want to crack them in case I want to sell or trade, then the next person is thinking the same thing, is this card trimmed, alt. etc

It's a real conundrum these days. You feel you have to buy high-grade in slabs, yet you can't crack them out for the reason you just stated. And should they trust the card? They might send it back to the slabber and find out you bought it slabbed and trimmed!

Speaking of which, let's say you buy a PSA-slabbed card as NM, crack it and send it to SGC, and they tell you it was trimmed. Are you just simply screwed?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Are you just simply screwed?

Simply- yes.

[bunst]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It's a real conundrum these days. You feel you have to buy high-grade in slabs, yet you can't crack them out for the reason you just stated. And should they trust the card? They might send it back to the slabber and find out you bought it slabbed and trimmed!

Speaking of which, let's say you buy a PSA-slabbed card as NM, crack it and send it to SGC, and they tell you it was trimmed. Are you just simply screwed?

Not necessarily. Send it back to PSA and get it graded again.

[Jaybird]

ALL High grade tobacco and candy cards scare me unless I know exactly where they come from. The money is just too high to assume that the doctoring isn't rampant. TPG slab doesn't ease my mind at all; so to me it doesn't help or hurt and I wouldn't mind it all if it was gone. In fact, if it adds value to put a 7 or 8 on the card then it will only increase the desire to doctor and slab, thereby increasing fraud in the hobby. If the companies were truly able to tell which were doctored and which weren't and cared to be consistent, then there might be an argument but since they get it wrong so often...

That's why I'm happy to collect in mid-grade VG-VGEX-EX.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

I've been hanging around here for three years now and this is the first thread that I've read where a collector tells another collector that my collection "will trash yours". I don't care who you're friends with or how long you've been in the hobby...this is really lame.

Robert Dixon

beware of challenging the establishment, as you may be labeled the "d" word!

And I believe the Brucii often teased the smaller fish in the pond before challenging them to fisticuffs. Surely u were around for that!

[t206hound]

I only collect T206s and have submitted a few hundred to SGC in the past 18 months. I am pretty good about being able to determine what grade a card is going to get. I'd say 70-80% accurate to the grade given, and 98 percentish on being within one grade. That said, I typically submit cards that will yield a grade of 30-60.

Anyway, since I've been following this thread I decided to go back and look at SGCs grading scale (http://sgccard.com/grading_scale.htm). Based on the guidelines for each grade as listed on the page, I tend to agree that they are grading very harshly. Specifically, I'll point out:

• It is possible for a card with pinholes AND writing to get a 30. When was the last time you saw a 30 with EITHER of those characteristics?
• It is possible for a card with a light hairline crease or a light TEAR to get a 50. I have NUMEROUS crease-free 40s in my collection.
• It is possible for a card with ONE very light surface crease (one side only) to get a 60.

While I've been able to accurately predict my grades, I'm now very confused as to whether or not the graders are actually using these guidelines when evaluating cards. I know in my last submission that I had two cards knocked down from 40 to 30 between the initial grading and shipment. One was this Delehanty that I recently sold. No pinhole, no writing... heck, no creases, but it's a 30. Sure, rounded corners, a little scratching on the front and perhaps some back staining. I admit it's not a 60... but is it really a 30 according to SGCs own scale?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by t206hound

• It is possible for a card with ONE very light surface crease (one side only) to get a 60.

Not possible. This Landry was almost mint, but had a very, ver slight surface wrinkle on the back - I could not even see it. I took the card to a PSA dealer and he noticed it. So I sent it to SGC on my own...and they noticed it. Automatic 50. You will never see a prettier '55 Bowman - I bought this and several others raw, and all were pack-fresh. The wrinkle does not show up in the scan - I had to describe it when selling the card...$55

[Vegas-guy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Not possible. This Landry was almost mint, but had a very, ver slight surface wrinkle on the back - I could not even see it. I took the card to a PSA dealer and he noticed it. So I sent it to SGC on my own...and they noticed it. Automatic 50. You will never see a prettier '55 Bowman - I bought this and several others raw, and all were pack-fresh. The wrinkle does not show up in the scan - I had to describe it when selling the card...$55

Wow Great looking card for that grade!

[ullmandds]

I'm with Jay on this one...I collect lower-mid grade...and am super happy...I am very suspicious of most high grade cards that are over 100 years old.

If one were to create a short film documenting the life of a T206 card from the time it was pulled from a pack of cigs back in 1909...how boring would the film be if the instant the card was pulled it weas placed in between the pages of book where it stayed for 100 years...B-O-R-I-N-G!!!! I like my cards with a story!!!!

On a different note...I think it's a lot easier to be consistent when it comes to grading T206's as there are so many of them out there to compare to. Granted there are size differences...but not nearly as high a % as some other types of cards...which exist in much smaller #'s and may be printed on different types of stock more prone to deterioration.

It drives me crazy to open the SCD and look for prices of vintage cards only to find NRMT, EX, VG as options..when most cards available are in lesser grades...and practically none exist in these higher grades.

[bobbyw8469]

Not necessarily. Send it back to PSA and get it graded again.

How about when you crack out an SGC graded card and PSA says it is trimmed?????

[vintagerookies51]

This is partially why I collect low-grade cards. I've never had a card that would grade a 2 or higher, so I don't have to worry about what the grade gets

[dog*dirt]

What I look for in a card is eye appeal, which I believe gets overlooked at times by judging a card on grade alone. It seems and is fine with me that the card grading companies focus on the technical aspects of grading a card. I would not mind seeing a flip on the back of the card kind of like BVG in breaking down the surface,corner,centering,edges but with more descriptions maybe they could use a code system if a card is getting knocked a grade or two because of staining, creasing, paperloss etc.

[ruth-gehrig]

Absolutely agree. I could care less how another person believes my card grades. I just recently started on the T206 set and initially didn't know how to go about it....raw? graded? or both? I've been more of the memorabilia collector so I've recently watched alot of graded cards sell on ebay to get an idea of what an SGC 10 brings compared to SGC 30 or 40. As it turns out I've seen several 10s and 20s look like 30s-50s. On a limited budget that's good for me as a buyer because I'm going on the visual aspects of the card and not the numbers! Now if I was the submitter and subsequent seller of such cards it would be a different story.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

ALL High grade tobacco and candy cards scare me unless I know exactly where they come from. The money is just too high to assume that the doctoring isn't rampant. TPG slab doesn't ease my mind at all; so to me it doesn't help or hurt and I wouldn't mind it all if it was gone. In fact, if it adds value to put a 7 or 8 on the card then it will only increase the desire to doctor and slab, thereby increasing fraud in the hobby. If the companies were truly able to tell which were doctored and which weren't and cared to be consistent, then there might be an argument but since they get it wrong so often...

That's why I'm happy to collect in mid-grade VG-VGEX-EX.

+1

[bobbyw8469]

Also, sorry to hear about your 1934 Gehrig. SGC is unsually tough on that one card in particular....not really sure why. Here is one that I won from Lew Lipsett auction last year. It looked good when I got it. Lew said he got it from an old school collector who had it in his collection for years....




I ended up consigning it with PWCC. Brent said it looked to be about 1/32 short from left to right. Not trimmed. Just came from Goudey that way.

[bobbyw8469]

bum rap, that's for sure!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The best grader on earth is the sole employee at GAI. I rest my case....

Maybe, but he won't be in until Monday...some Monday.

[bobbyw8469]

Until certain things happen at SGC, they won't get any more of my business. As far as I'm concerned, they have lost the ability the grade all issues of cards except T206s.

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

If one were to create a short film documenting the life of a T206 card from the time it was pulled from a pack of cigs back in 1909...how boring would the film be if the instant the card was pulled it weas placed in between the pages of book where it stayed for 100 years...B-O-R-I-N-G!!!! I like my cards with a story!!!!

On a different note...I think it's a lot easier to be consistent when it comes to grading T206's as there are so many of them out there to compare to. Granted there are size differences...but not nearly as high a % as some other types of cards...which exist in much smaller #'s and may be printed on different types of stock more prone to deterioration.

It drives me crazy to open the SCD and look for prices of vintage cards only to find NRMT, EX, VG as options..when most cards available are in lesser grades...and practically none exist in these higher grades.

+1 to all points Ullmandds!