SOT Holy Crap the Phillies Got Cliff Lee- Best Starting 4 Pitchers Ever??

[JamesGallo]

The Phillies got Cliff Lee which is just totally mind blowing to me. Plus he signed for less money and less years which is also insane in this market.

Has there ever been a starting rotation better then the phillies have now??

Halladay
Oswalt
Lee
Hamels
Blanton (ok a weak spot but he eats a lot of innings)

So what do you think?

James G

[familytoad]

James
I posted in the watercooler, but I'll chime in here as well !

WOW Phillies have been my team for 40 years and I'm as excited as ever.
4 superstar pitchers in a row, and at the peak of their careers!

I wish it was April already...

[Peter_Spaeth]

A good day for Red Sox fans.

[barrysloate]

Yes, the Phillies staff is among the best ever, and I guess even though Lee took less money he felt that $100 million was enough. The extra $50 million the Yankees offered was just going to give him a fatter bank account. I respect that he chose the team that he wanted to play for.

[53Browns]

Only Steinbrenner was able to "buy" a world series team. IMO.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by 53Browns

Only Steinbrenner was able to "buy" a world series team. IMO.

Wayne Huizenga bought one back in 1997. Then promptly dismantled the team and sold it.

[Chris D.]

I wonder if Werth is kicking himself.

Yanks and Phils are my one and two teams. I think it's great that Lee picked the desire to win over a larger paycheck, but I think he may regret picking the Phils. Yes, their rotation is scary as long as they stay healthy and click, but their offense doesn't impress me anymore. Rollins and Utley are starting to get hampered by injuries, several key players will be free agents in a year or two and I don't think there is depth in there farm system. IMO, their best shot to go back to the Series is next season, because after that, it will be a long time before they go again as I expect them to be an irrelevant team in a couple years, unfortunately.

I love the Phils almost as much as the Yanks. I'm a season ticket holder. I think in a few years Lee is going to look around and say "Where did everybody go?" It's do or die next season.

[calvindog]

Red Sox -- Phillies will be a great WS next year. Oswalt as a #3 playoff starter? Scary.

[oldjudge]

The Phillies have morphed into the Giants--their hitting is now questionable but they have a great pitching staff.

[David Atkatz]

Any day the Yankees don't get what they want is a very good day!

[tedzan]

I'm am Phillies fan....however, I was really ticked off when they let Lee go in the first place. And, I feel that this mistake
prevented the Phillies from being in the World Series 3 consecutive years.

Now, that Lee is back in a Phillies uniform, more power to them.


TED Z

[ls7plus]

Well, at least the Yankees didn't get shut out--they managed to sign an aging shortstop for twice what he would have been worth anywhere else!
Seriously, I agree with David--anytime the Yankees can't simply buy what they need is a tremendous day for baseball!

[bh3443]

The phillies will be exciting this coming year!
Personally, I like Tim Lincecum the best and wish he was here in Boston!
Freezing here in Boston! I can't wait for Spring Training!

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by Chris D.

I wonder if Werth is kicking himself.

Yanks and Phils are my one and two teams. I think it's great that Lee picked the desire to win over a larger paycheck, but I think he may regret picking the Phils. Yes, their rotation is scary as long as they stay healthy and click, but their offense doesn't impress me anymore. Rollins and Utley are starting to get hampered by injuries, several key players will be free agents in a year or two and I don't think there is depth in there farm system. IMO, their best shot to go back to the Series is next season, because after that, it will be a long time before they go again as I expect them to be an irrelevant team in a couple years, unfortunately.

I love the Phils almost as much as the Yanks. I'm a season ticket holder. I think in a few years Lee is going to look around and say "Where did everybody go?" It's do or die next season.

Jeez.... Pats and Colts are mine....Lakers and Celtics as well, did i mention Pens , Caps, and Red Wings as well

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by jboosted92

Jeez.... Pats and Colts are mine....Lakers and Celtics as well, did i mention Pens , Caps, and Red Wings as well

lol

[Michael Peich]

As a Phillies season ticket holder, I'm glad they're spending my $5/ticket increase on bringing back Cliff Lee. (Read Jayson Stark's piece on Lee's return.) Oswalt as a #3? How about a #4? And, yes, Jayson "Effing" Werth must be questioning his greed. He will become the next Aaron Rowand to leave the Phils for more $$$s, have disappointing seasons, and regret his decision.

Red Sox and Phillies in a seven game series. I love it!

Cheers, Mike

[Rob D.]

Maybe the Phillies will go with a four-man rotation.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by Michael Peich

As a Phillies season ticket holder, I'm glad they're spending my $5/ticket increase on bringing back Cliff Lee. (Read Jayson Stark's piece on Lee's return.) Oswalt as a #3? How about a #4? And, yes, Jayson "Effing" Werth must be questioning his greed. He will become the next Aaron Rowand to leave the Phils for more $$$s, have disappointing seasons, and regret his decision.

Red Sox and Phillies in a seven game series. I love it!

Cheers, Mike

Mike,

As a Nats fan, I say bite your tongue. I will say my friend, you are the first Philly fan I ever met who's actually a decent human being. For all I know though, it could be that you turn into Mr. Hyde at the ball park.

I must confess that I don't follow baseball today as much as I did in the 1960s and 1970s, and I know it's a different era with 5-man rotations and the big emphasis on offense - but I'd sure like to know what I'm missing with regards to Lee et al. When I look at the numbers, I see these 5 guys started 154 combined games last year, had a combined record of 67-49, and their teams won a combined 89-65 in their starts. That's really good, but is it historically great? Why would these guys all win 20 games next year? Synergy? Momentum? Are the Phillies offensively and/or defensively better than the support these guys had a year ago?

I also don't get the Lee hysteria. He's been in the majors for 9 years, and only twice has won more than 14 games. In the last 5 years, he had one terrific Cy Young season; in the 4 years wrapped around that one, he was 45-41, and his teams were a combined 54-57 in his 111 starts. He's given up more than a hit an inning for his career, and minus his Cy Young season his career ERA is over 4.00.

I know he's renowned for his post-season pitching, but that's just 10 total starts over two seasons, and the most recent 2 starts were bombs. He was a spectacular 4-0, 1.49 in 2009, then a less spectacular 3-2, 2.78 in 2010.

If we're evaluating this new rotation on the strength of the 4th and 5th starters, I guess it ranks (potentially) pretty high; if evaluated on combined or average performance, I think there are dozens throughout history that probably rank ahead of it (maybe even including Spahn, Sain, Rain, Rain and Rain).

[David R]

I know I am biased because I live in the San Francisco Bay Area but I still like the Giants rotation better. I would take Lincecum and Cain over any of the Phillies starters and I think Bumgarner is not far behind.

[Fred]

With Lee the Phillies have the best current staff around in either league... just incredible to put him in with Doc and Oswalt (not that Hamels sucks).

What about Hughes, Melton, Johnson and Hoerst? Now that was an awesome staff!

[cdn_collector]

Originally Posted by David R

I know I am biased because I live in the San Francisco Bay Area but I still like the Giants rotation better. I would take Lincecum and Cain over any of the Phillies starters and I think Bumgarner is not far behind.

I am so blown away by this I don't even which angle to settle on. I can only assume that you're taking this position because you guys won the World Series this year. I completely understand your position on Lincecum, the kid is a stud [although I'll admit I was super excited to see him pitch against the Cubs this summer and am still disappointed at how badly he got pasted]. To say that you'd take Cain over Halladay, though, blows me away. I'm trying to tell myself that it's because I'm a life long Jays fan [basically synonymous with Halladay fan], but taking Cain over Halladay would be like me insisting on bringing Pat Borders out of retirement rather than having to settle for Buster Posey.


Regards,

Richard.

[David R]

Originally Posted by cdn_collector

I am so blown away by this I don't even which angle to settle on. I can only assume that you're taking this position because you guys won the World Series this year. I completely understand your position on Lincecum, the kid is a stud [although I'll admit I was super excited to see him pitch against the Cubs this summer and am still disappointed at how badly he got pasted]. To say that you'd take Cain over Halladay, though, blows me away. I'm trying to tell myself that it's because I'm a life long Jays fan [basically synonymous with Halladay fan], but taking Cain over Halladay would be like me insisting on bringing Pat Borders out of retirement rather than having to settle for Buster Posey.


Regards,

Richard.

Richard,
Halladay is great, no doubt. But I think Cain is one of the most underrated starters in baseball. The Giants have not given him much run support and the bullpen has let him down consistently his whole career. He is six or seven years younger than Halladay, has a similar career ERA, and gives up fewer hits and strikes out more batters per nine innings than Halladay. For next season I would take him as a starter on my staff over Halladay. Time will tell whether that would be a good decision.
Best,
David R

[Rickyy]

Great get for the Phillies for sure... on paper they look very formidable and all those guys are battle tested too and definitely makes them a favorite...but nothing is guaranteed...look at Maddox, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery...that great staff was together for a good run but they only won one title... one good point too.. comparing SF and Phila staff....Phillies bullpen is still not as strong as the Giants...although I really like Ryan Madson.

[cdn_collector]

Originally Posted by David R

Richard,
Halladay is great, no doubt. But I think Cain is one of the most underrated starters in baseball. The Giants have not given him much run support and the bullpen has let him down consistently his whole career. He is six or seven years younger than Halladay, has a similar career ERA, and gives up fewer hits and strikes out more batters per nine innings than Halladay. For next season I would take him as a starter on my staff over Halladay. Time will tell whether that would be a good decision.
Best,
David R

Fair enough, David, I can't argue too much with that. When you talk about lack of run support, Halladay suffered that in spades with Toronto. Curiousity will force me to compare their early statistics to see how they stack up. That's probably a more fair way of looking at this.

Lastly, since I made my disappointment known about the one Lincecum start I got to see, I should also acknowledge that on that same trip that I saw Lincecum, I watched Cliff Lee pitch at Oakland, and then watched the Jays play in Anaheim. Including the Skydome [I will not call it the Rogers' Centre!], I have been to four stadiums and AT&T is my hands down favourite! Great building, great baseball environment, great fans.


Regards,

Richard.

[SteveMitchell]

James Gallo wrote:

The Phillies got Cliff Lee which is just totally mind blowing to me. Plus he signed for less money and less years which is also insane in this market.

Has there ever been a starting rotation better then the phillies have now??
Halladay
Oswalt
Lee
Hamels
Blanton (ok a weak spot but he eats a lot of innings)

So what do you think?

James G
__________________

My comment: A quick check of www.baseball-reference.com turned up the '05 Giants as a pretty good club:

Christy Mathewson (age 24) 31 - 9 .775 on 1.28
Joe McGinnity (34) 21 - 15 .583, 2.87
Red Ames (22) 22 - 8 .733, 2.74
Dummy Taylor (30) 16 - 9 .640, 2.66
Hooks Wiltse (25) 15 - 6 .714, 2.47

I would also add, too, that the '54 Indians' starters were a finer group - at least until they ran up against the Giants in the World Series.

With the addition of the American League's best pitcher (Cliff Lee), the Phils do seem to have the look of an outstanding pitching corps.

[CMIZ5290]

This is exactly why the system sucks as it exists. Where do you draw the line expense wise?? First of all, if the phillies don't win it all, this is a bust. Secondly, they are behind the red sox as a favorite to win it all. Finally, the atlanta braves pitching staff in the early-mid 90's was better.