Goodwin Pickups

[bigfish]

hello,

I like topple better. Makes no sense but I like it. Hope you have another auction soon.

[chiprop]

toby- send me my scan!

Jeff - Your list is flawed!

[bigfish]

Thank you. Scan on the way. Call me if you need to.

dan--email address please?

[Rich Klein]

And I've known Bill for a long long time

I just like reading them

Regards
Rich

[barrysloate]

Hi Toby- if you like "topple", that's cool.

[Orioles1954]

Hello there,

From time to time we do run the same card in multiple auctions. Sometimes it could be due to financial hardship for the winning bidder and they re-consign it OR the item no longer fits in their collection and they re-consign it with us down the road. It's certainly nice to work for an auction house where we don't have to worry about such things which have been previously mentioned in this thread.

James

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by chiprop

Jeff - Your list is flawed!

Dan, then why not add your thoughts!

[Peter_Spaeth]

You can fool some of the people all of the time.

[calvindog]

Peter, they're not fooled; they're consignors.

1952 Topps Pafko Black Back PSA 5. All 'sales' over the past 12 months:

8/19/09 eBay $599.00
7/27/09 eBay $462.88
6/10/09 eBay $710.01
4/1/09 eBay $733.00
2/13/09 Goodwin $2,397.00
12/20/08 eBay $814.12
11/14/08 Goodwin $5,294.55

Even Broadway Rick could only get $462 for this card!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Volatile market.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Volatile market.

Volatile??? With that kind of spread, you could either make a killing, of just get killed, in a Pafko Futures Market.

Where's Crandall when we need him?

[calvindog]

Yes, the market seemed to get very volatile a couple of times.

By the way, that Goodwin card was the very first one I investigated. Not exactly like finding a needle in a haystack, however.

PS: when I started talking this way about Mastro three years ago a lot of posters/consignors got pissed at me too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=calvindog;750701Not exactly like finding a needle in a haystack, however.

.[/QUOTE]

More like Haystacks Calhoun.

[Leon]

For the record I have never had an issue with Bill or his auctions. I just wonder how he can repeatedly get mulitples of a price for a card that other auction houses can't? My guess, and this is only a guess, is that consignors friends bid their friends consignments up. There is nothing Bill or any auctioneer can do to prevent that 100%. I would like to give a lie detector test to everyone that is saying things in this thread as to the question "have you ever had a friend bid on one of your cards in Bill's auctions to keep it from going too low?". My guess is there would be more than one that has.....

There also seems to be a redundancy of the same cards selling over and over, with more frequency, than other auctions. Not sure why that is....

[chiprop]

Jeff- I consigned the Herzog Garter that I purchased out of Heritage for $4,200. Someone paid $5,100 plus juice for it in Goodwin's auction. Not sure who bid on it or purchased it, but it doesn't really matter. I was a perfect example of someone who buys from one auction and sells through another. Why did it sell for more? Not exactly sure, but I can tell you that I did not have anyone bid on my behalf. Maybe it's because Heritage auctions are not user friendly in many ways, and Goodwin has a site easy to use. Bill comes across as a genuine dude, and I think he has great write ups and scans. I think Goodwin is one of the premier auction houses and well respected.
I chimed in!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by chiprop

Jeff- I consigned the Herzog Garter that I purchased out of Heritage for $4,200. Someone paid $6,000 for it in Goodwin's auction. Not sure who bid on it or purchased it, but it doesn't really matter. I was a perfect example of someone who buys from one auction and sells through another. Why did it sell for more? Not exactly sure, but I can tell you that I did not have anyone bid on my behalf. Maybe it's because Heritage auctions are not user friendly in many ways, and Goodwin has a site easy to use. Bill comes across as a genuine dude, and I think he has great write ups and scans. I think Goodwin is one of the premier auction houses and well respected.
I chimed in!

So Dan....you have never had anyone bid on one of your cards in an auction before?

[Oldtix]

In other collecting fields, the bigger auction houses have greater access to international buyers and this tends to skew values pretty significantly. I always figured this wouldn't be the case with sports items (possible exception being Japan with baseball), but that might be incorrect.

Are international buyers active buyers for sports auctions?

[Jim VB]

At The National this year, Goodwin had several items in his case that had been "sold" in previous auctions. Notably, he had a 1914 Boston Garter Lajoie (sepia), that sold in the February auction. I asked if this item was on consignment and the sales person told me no, it was owned by them.

Lot #22 in the February auction: http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=9609



Edited to add: I know that random incidents like this might not meet the burden of proof standard in a court of law, but when I'm spending my money, I have a lower threshold.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by calvindog

PS: when I started talking this way about Mastro three years ago a lot of posters/consignors got pissed at me too.

Only back then? Hell, half of them are still pissed at you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Edited to add: I know that random incidents like this might not meet the burden of proof standard in a court of law, but when I'm spending my money, I have a lower threshold.

Smoke often is produced by fire.

[3-2-count]

Maybe I'm just doing this wrong then. Friends bidding on your consignments huh. Hmmmmm. Wish I'd thought of that in Bill's last auction with my consignments. I'm still recovering from the bath I took. For every record price that he's obtained in his auction on certain consignments you'll also find an unhappy consignor that's taken a hit as I did. I do not hold anything against Bill though for the low returns. Just the luck of the draw I guess. For the record I can honestly say I have "never" had anyone bid an auction up for me.

[Cat]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Maybe I'm just doing this wrong then. Friends bidding on your consignments huh. Hmmmmm. Wish I'd thought of that in Bill's last auction with my consignments. I'm still recovering from the bath I took. For every record price that he's obtained in his auction on certain consignments you'll also find an unhappy consignor that's taken a hit as I did. I do not hold anything against Bill though for the low returns. Just the luck of the draw I guess. For the record I can honestly say I have "never" had anyone bid an auction up for me.

Me too. My four consignments went for roughly -25% form what I paid for them. I guess I did better than my stock portfolio.

[botn]

There is no guarantee that over time the things we buy will be worth more over time. Far too many uncontrollable factors.

[calvindog]

I'm sure Dan will get to that question in due time, hopefully before Yom Kippur.

I've consigned one single card (worth around a grand) to an auction house in my lifetime and have never bid on a friend's card. I have no financial relationships with any auction house and have never described an auctioneer as a 'great guy.' And I'm the guy whose bona fides need to be questioned? That's hilarious! Almost as funny as some of the excuses for Goodwin's prices on PSA 8 commons!

[Leon]

One other thing...I have not had anyone bid on any lot I have consigned either ...and before I started an auction company I did consign to several auction houses. For some reason I never got spectacular prices even on nice pieces. There is no doubt what Greg said is true too....way too many variables to know too much for sure.

I have had friends, and swore never to tell so I won't, tell me they have indeed had friends bid on their lots....so I know it happens...and it happens at every auction house. The only way to protect yourself is to always only bid what you feel is a comfortable price for you. Otherwise you might just be bidding against a shill. And, supposing many of these things that are being bid on are in fact won by "friends", that could explain why they go right back to auction so quickly... Sometimes it seems that these cards are hot potatos.....They never seem to find a good home...

[chiprop]

Edited, because it wasn't relevant

[Vintageclout]

I have to agree with "Bigfish".....Over the years I have never had an issue BOTH buying and consigning in Bill's auctions, and have been fortunate enough to receive my consigner checks virtually at the speed of light. Additionally, I have won MANY high end cards with ceiling bids far greater than the hammer price. In fact, I just won the Fredierick Foto Ruth Thursday night and could have paid, via a ceiling bid, much more.........bottom line is all consignments and winning bids are based on an infinite number of variables that boils down to the "luck of the draw"!

Happy Bidding!

Regards,
Joe

[V117collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes, the market seemed to get very volatile a couple of times.

By the way, that Goodwin card was the very first one I investigated. Not exactly like finding a needle in a haystack, however.

PS: when I started talking this way about Mastro three years ago a lot of posters/consignors got pissed at me too.

Originally Posted by chiprop

Jeff- I consigned the Herzog Garter that I purchased out of Heritage for $4,200. Someone paid $6,000 for it in Goodwin's auction. Not sure who bid on it or purchased it, but it doesn't really matter. I was a perfect example of someone who buys from one auction and sells through another. Why did it sell for more? Not exactly sure, but I can tell you that I did not have anyone bid on my behalf. Maybe it's because Heritage auctions are not user friendly in many ways, and Goodwin has a site easy to use. Bill comes across as a genuine dude, and I think he has great write ups and scans. I think Goodwin is one of the premier auction houses and well respected.
I chimed in!

For some reason "Union Ruler house" keeps popping into my head! Not a communist faction on the contrary... Honest collectors should never hesitate to speak on industry standards The answer is BALANCE and regulation!!

[calvindog]

Brad, you need help. Please get some.

And Dan, in certain circumstances you might be best advised to say nothing rather than answering as you did. But for what it's worth, Yom Kippur is around the corner so you still have time...

[barrysloate]

As someone who once ran an auction house, I have opinions on this matter but choose to express them diplomatically. I do not participate in Goodwin's Auctions and have never placed a bid, so I am not going to pretend I know what's going on. And maybe it's nothing- but I do admit that some of the prices I see strain my imagination. I have often auctioned the same card in the same grade and see it go for double my price in a Goodwin Auction. Frankly, that's a head scratcher. Sure, there are some discrepancies in the marketplace, but they are usually isolated examples. I have seen prices consistently go 1.5-2 times higher than my own, and my experience is the same people bid in all the auctions. So I can't explain it.

I do agree with Leon that there may be an atmosphere of friends regularly bidding for other friends but I can't say for sure. For those who have said that their consignments didn't do well, well that's the free market at work. For those who got incredible prices for their cards, well above previous recorded prices, there has to be some explanation for it. I am suspicious by nature, so my take is I am concerned with many prices realized I see, and that goes for many of the auction houses out there. As far as exactly what goes on, I don't know and the auction houses don't tell me. But from where I'm sitting... I say hmmmmm.

[calvindog]

Barry, I guess the answer is that when friends bid up their friends' lots in auctions they only do so in Goodwin and not your auctions. Or REA. Or B & L. Or H & S. Must be that special secret software you guys all employed.

[V117collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brad, you need help. Please get some.

And Dan, in certain circumstances you might be best advised to say nothing rather than answering as you did. But for what it's worth, Yom Kippur is around the corner so you still have time...

Who are you trying to convince, me or yourself?

[barrysloate]

I don't know Jeff what goes on, but the fact is if I don't get prices equal to other auction houses, I'm a has been. And as you may have noticed my auctions no longer exist.

[Cat]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't know Jeff what goes on, but the fact is if I don't get prices equal to other auction houses, I'm a has been. And as you may have noticed my auctions no longer exist.

Barry: I think you should hang in there. Prior to this year, I had only consigned one card in my life (it went ot REA). For various reasons I have had to sell off a part of my collection. In this day and age when I personally believe EBay totally blows, auction houses are a must. I definately would have considered you, but now I hope I don't have to sell any more of my collection. Two of the most important aspects to me is: which auction is next and will I get paid in a reasonable time frame. Timing of money in hand is key, but I am no longer willing to use EBay since they have made it difficult to sell within their framework.

Because of EBay and their crappy business practices, I think the use of auction houses is going to expand not retract.

[E93]

For what it is worth, I consigned six cards to Goodwin auction that closed a couple of months ago. Five of the cards went for less than I had hoped and one did really well. I was not surprised by the one that did well. It is a super tough card that had not been publicly offered in more than a decade. The others were strong cards, but not extremely tough to find. The ones that seem to be doing well in this economy are the ones that buyer's might not get another chance at for a long time.

I have always had positive dealings with Bill Goodwin.
JimB

[barrysloate]

Cat- appreciate the support, but it's really tough for a small auction business to get consignments these days. And you have to get them consistently, and you have to find a way to top what you got previously. If you don't make a splash then you don't have a whole lot. That's my take.

[E93]

P.S. IMHO, next to REA, Goodwin has the best write-ups in the hobby. I think it makes a difference, especially if some of the heavy bidders are new to the hobby. He also puts together a very nice catalog in general.
JimB

[calvindog]

Barry, try guaranteeing prices for consignors as the great guys do. And have a reputation for shilling up your lots, that helps too. Oh and let's not forget great write-ups, that's the most important thing of all.

[barrysloate]

Jim- the write-ups don't hurt, but much of it is hype and padding. It's good to give historical background on a piece that merits it, but you don't need a 250 word essay to describe a T206 common in PSA 8. Do people actually read those things?

[E93]

I agree that every card does not merit the extensive write-ups they sometimes get, but some history of rare sets or cards, relative scarcity, maybe some interesting tidbits about the subject all contribute. I think sometimes people who have a lot of hobby knowledge and baseball history knowledge forget what it was like to not have that and then fail to appreciate it when they see it because it is nothing they did not already know. Being a teacher, I am constantly trying to remember what is was like to not know what I do now and what it was like to learn it. Hopefully that makes me a better teacher. And hopefully the write-ups welcome more people into the hobby. So I appreciate the descriptions, even when it is info I already know.
JimB

[E93]

By the way, there is more than one person on this board that seems to harp on the same stuff over and over again. That becomes much more of a turnoff than reading about Ty Cobb's .367 lifetime average for the 1000th time in an auction write-up.\
JimB

[barrysloate]

Good points, but it is also helpful to offer that information succinctly. I think there are many people out there with short attention spans who may not want to read a long essay about each lot.

I offered historical background when it was necessary, but tried not to ramble or repeat myself. We veterans do get jaded, but I know when I'm reading through a catalog I'm skipping half the text.

[chiprop]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brad, you need help. Please get some.

And Dan, in certain circumstances you might be best advised to say nothing rather than answering as you did. But for what it's worth, Yom Kippur is around the corner so you still have time...

Jeff -
I'm OK, thanks for looking out for me!

There seems to be overwhelming and relevant information from NET 54ers who have consigned and purchased cards in Goodwin and the consensus is... You don't always get great prices as a consigner and your top (topple) bid doesn't always get hit. Unless you have information otherwise, maybe it is what it is.

Barry-
Of course collectors read the description! There is a ton of knowledge in the write ups, and I think it has a huge deal to do with the prices he gets. There are collectors joining the hobby all the time. Not everyone understands the nuances or relevance of each card, player, etc. I think this is the single most contributing factor to Bill's success.

[calvindog]

Jim, you can call me out by name, I think you'll find I have a pretty thick skin and am not easily deterred. And fraud in the hobby is a pretty important topic even if it does blow a potential zen moment. At least the FBI seems to think so.

[calvindog]

Dan, consignors who have shared in the ridiculous prices of Goodwin have every incentive to protect him now (just as many protected Mastro a few years ago). But everyone here knows the truth about what goes on in his auctions -- and many just don't want to say it here because to do so would be to kill the golden goose.

And unless Bill turns over his bidding records or the people who have gotten guaranteed prices on lots come forward I'm not sure there is much anyone can do other than set out the more ludicrous results he's gotten. Circumstantial proof is pretty powerful as it certainly tipped me off to Mastro's fraud and I guess some important people agreed. But I will add that whatever I felt about Mastro's shenanigans based on the auction numbers is tiny compared to what I see with Goodwin. But then again, I'm just a bidder and not a consignor so what do I know.

[barrysloate]

Dan- come on, you don't really believe that bidders pay more after reading the text? All well written lots are helpful to them, but do you think bidders exceed their limits because of the text? I highly doubt it.

But I do agree there are beginners coming into the hobby and the extra information helps them learn about the memorabilia (again assuming that it is genuinely well written).

[slidekellyslide]

Interesting info on the 1952 Pafko card...not a rare card, and one that comes up often. How in the world does this card get 4-5x in a Goodwin auction what it fetches on ebay?

[rman444]

Barry - would you think any less of me if I admitted that I have been whipped into a bidding frenzy because of a flowery auction description before?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff, as you know, people believe what they want to believe. So if people want to believe auctions are clean, they are going to believe auctions are clean, and certainly even the most corrupt auction has lots of legitimate sales. It's what to make of the ones that defy common sense, or the ones that show up on the table a week later, or that ones that keep getting recycled, that make me, personally, cynical. Now, about Ty Cobb's batting average.....

[barrysloate]

Richard- depends what you mean by flowery auction description. Is it an accurate appraisal of a card that turns you on, or all the silly hype we see? Do you bid more when it reads "snow white borders" or "corners so sharp you can shave with them?"

If so, see your doctor.