OT but it is time for the 134th Kentucky Derby

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

like David but I didn't go to the Derby today.....

Lots of emotions here from people who have some knowledge and lots who don't. Won't pretend to try to sway anyone's opinion either way but anyone who thinks these animals are abused is sorely mistaken. Take a look at some of the footage of Barbaro's owners and see the pain they felt. Yeah, they lost breeding fees but I don't think that was it. Like Ken said....it's not a matter of euthanizing because it's cheaper. The horses are huge animals moving around on ankles that are incredibly fragile.

Eight Bells didn't run in any race yesterday....from the earlier poster. Her trainer had a horse that won the Kentucky Oaks race yesterday. That might have been what the question was. He was undecided about running her in the Derby vs. the Oaks. Since he had a strong horse for the Oaks too, he decided to run her in the Derby. Triumph one day, tragedy the next........

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Dan- That was 8 Belles' stablemate, another filly who ran yesterday and won the Kentucky Oaks, an all filly race for the best 3 year old filly in the country. 8 Belles would have won that race easily and it is entriely hindsight but would probably still be alive.

Brad- The breaks occurred while 8 Belles was galloping out after finishing the race. The jockey said the filly began "galloping strange" and then collapsed.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I would define running an animal before it's fully developed to be abuse. And Barbaro is a tiny example of the horse racing world. He was nationally known and loved and there was a lot of pressure to keep that horse alive. He is the exception to the rule when it comes to horse racing injuries.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Yes, the whole, top horses, that will command huge stud fees, are certainly going to be treated with greater care. But anyone who thinks a gelded, $1500 claimer at Finger Lakes, for example, isn't abused, is kidding themselves.
Being raced 10 times a month, being given stimulants, even being beaten with a broom pre-race to agitate them to run, are abuses in any reasonable person's mind.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Goff

Bob

These horses are treated with respect like human beings and almost live as well as you and me. I have spoken to Bob Baffert, who is a respected horse trainer, several times and even mentioned if using the whip harms the horses and his response was "if the trainers and jockeys felt using a whip was endangering the horses, we would not use them. Period". I for one also believe this and feel it is not injuring the animals. It may just come across that using a whip hurts the horses.

I am not trying to argue with anyone about this. It's just people in my community would feel the same as I. We all love horses and horse racing and would not stand for anything that would injure a horse.

David

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, with all respect, Baffert's comment about whipping not being painful is self-serving and based on hopeful speculation -- and surely is false. As for trainers/owners not standing for anything that would hurt a horse, well, what happened today? They managed to stand for that pretty well.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

So Bab Baffert told you that if the jockeys or trainers felt like whipping was injuring the horse they wouldn't do it? Well there's scientific proof if I've ever seen it.

I guess I can understand if a person is born and grows up in Kentucky they might be a bit defensive about the horse racing industry, but statistics don't lie.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Pomilla

David, tell me about the "respect" Kentucky Derby winner Ferdinand and Jockey Club Gold Cup winner, Exceller were shown, when their owners allowed them to wind up as dog food. If accomplished, celebrated horses are treated like this, how much "respect" do the lower class horses get?

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Those horses were sold to owners to race in Europe. The owners never expected that outcome, maybe foolishly so. Obviously, cultures other than ours regularly eat horse as a meat. Another horse found the same end in Japan. Don't remember the name but it happened too. You take that story and position it to seem like all horses are shipped to Europe for slaughter.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Goff

Man, I feel I am in a corner and can't fight my way out..LOL. I am just trying to defend the horse industry. I am not for whipping either, but they do it and I will still be a horse racing fan.

What happened today with Eight Belles was just a tragedy. My wife almost cried when we heard they had to put her down. I feel it was just an unlucky circumstance and nothing to do with the training. She just stopped funny and broke both of her ankles and with an injury like that you have to put them down.

Bob-My wife's best friend's family owns a horse farm in central Kentucky. They are not thoroughbreds and they probably cost them 3,000-6,000 apiece. Those horses are treated like family. Yeah I am sure there are jackasses out there who treat animals like a piece of crap, but the majority of horse owners who treat their horses very well.

I know you guys are just voicing your opinion and I respect that very much. I think we just see this subject from different angels and I am sorry if I came off the wrong way. That was not my intention.

Thanks
David

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Pomilla

David - fair enough.

Tom:

No, dude. Just don't see where they were treated with "respect" Once they were sold, anything could have happened to them.

"You take that story and position it to seem like all horses are shipped to Europe for slaughter."

That's not a conclusion most people would make from my post.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, I have a close friend who owns horses and I know that he loves them so I appreciate your point. A lot of us are just against any animals being hurt, especially for sport.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Well, I'm coming from the angle of a family that owns horses. My sister was a World Champion in 2004 and my niece is the reigning World Champion. Horse racing is cruel...even in my sister's "sport" there is a lot of drugging of the horses going on. My sister does it the right way and is proof that you can win without harming the animals.

[Archive]

Posted By: James Feagin

This thread has been very informative and thought provoking. Thanks to all parties involved.

James

[Archive]

Posted By: J Paul

David - maybe I can help you out a little here. I work in the racing industry in California and have done so for over 25 years.

I've seen Baffert's operation and if I have to come back in the next life as horse I'd be happy be a racehorse under his care. His horses get top notch care, Bob has been known to hire hot young chicks as grooms, and most of all he knows when to push and when to back off on training a horse. I did some research on breakdowns in California racing and found most interestingly that only ONE horse had ever broken down in a race under his care.

For those of you who only read negative stories about horse racing I encourage you to check out the great work being done by Michael Blowen and his Old Friends Thoroughbred Retirement Home (www.oldfriendsequine.org) and others around the country.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

As an animal lover it saddens me greatly to hear about this. I am not sure if there is a solution to the problem, or if it was just a freak accident, but I really hate it when this kind of thing happens. I would guess that most racehorse owners love their horses and would never harm them intentionally.

As to the whipping when they are racing...somehow I feel the horse probably isn't harmed but it can't feel good....anyone ever been whipped with a horse whip? (I realize their hide is tough but still).....

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim

My neice has been working in the horse industry for many years now.

Last year she went to Hong Kong with an Olympic group of cross country and dressage riders testing the set ups and conditions for the upcoming summer games.

She currently is working with a farm specializing in race horses. From speaking to her most horses receive an excellent level of care. However like in most industries there are some bad people. They should be rooted and out and delt with properly.

On the whole I'm OK with horse racing as a sport.

The jockies deserve a lot better treatment and level of pay while the topic is open for discussion.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matthew

I think in horse racing it is the jockeys that put them selfs in more trouble. I guess some are naturally small in size, But i remeber reading that some jockeys wanted the racing association to raise the weight they are allowed to be. It has to be so unhealthy to be a grown man and 98 - 100 lbs.

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim

I remember the "Real Sports" segment on horse racing showing the special toilet bowl for purging in the jockies locker room and the risky lengths these guys go to in order to make weight.

In a lot of cases they receive a far worse level of care than the horses. And I know the argument will be made that the jockies are there by choice and the horses are not, but with all the money being made in racing and stud fees, should the horses and the jockies be treated well?

[Archive]

Posted By: J Paul

Trust me, no one feels it more than those of us who work in the industry when something like Eight Belles happens, especially on national TV. It looks bad for the sport, and the people and media that only watch horse racing once a year come away with a bad picture of the industry as a whole.

As far as I can remember, this is the first time EVER that a horse has suffered a fatal injury in the Kentucky Derby. Every horse that runs is thoroughly checked over by both state and track vets so one can be pretty certain that she was 100% healthy going in and suffered an injury on the track. Same with Barbaro. There are debates about breeding horses for speed rather than soundness and drugs and such but those are discussions appropriate for other forums.

On jockeys, the majority of jockeys are simply small men. Yes, there are some jocks who have to resort to extreme measures to keep their weight down but the best jockeys are of Mexican, South American, and Asian descent and naturally light. It's also a job in which women are starting to make an impact albeit not quite at the top level of the spot as yet.

Lost in this debate is the performance of Big Brown. To most of you he's just the horse that won the Kentucky Derby. The authoritative manner in which he won, and the odds that he beat to do it, show this horse to be a potential great one, and at least for now the only horse who has a chance to win the Triple Crown. Consider:

- He's the first horse two win the Derby having raced only three times previously, since 1915.

- He's the first horse since 1929 to win from the #20 post - extreme outside.

- He raced on the outside of the pack for most of the race, meaning he covered more ground than any other horse and still won going away.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

In the end, these horses are bred solely for our entertainment and the need for faster times, thinner bones supporting more muscular bodies trumps all. Who are we to treat animals in such an inhumane way? Claiming that the animals are treated like Kings is like saying that the bad witch gave Hansel and Gretl great lunches.

It's not cockfighting but it's not too far off.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

This will be my final post in the thread -

Amen Jeff!

Tom B. perhaps said it best when he said: "The horses are huge animals moving around on ankles that are incredibly fragile."

I can't think of a better reason not to run them around a track then.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ed Ivey

My wife cried. I had a lump in my throat. We're not even fans of the sport. We just turned it on because it's one of those American events people watch.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill Stone

It may be the first fatal injury at the Kentucky Derby but at the 2006 Breeders' Cup at Churchill Downs the filly Pine Island was euthanized after breaking down on the track. And I will never forget the awful site of Go For Wand who snapped her right front ankle when racing at Belmont. She hobbled around on three legs with her injured leg just dangling before she collapsed and was euthanized. It is a horrible site to see them put up the curtain to shield the fans from what is happening.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

A shock to me that Big Brown went off at 5:2. I thought this was an easy pick. Anyway, Big Brown has to be 3:5 at a minimum for the Preakness which he will also win handily. He will then also win the Belmont to take the Triple Crown.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Big Brown close as you can get in horse racing to a sure thing. Putting $150 to win on this Triple Crown winner. Horse has a mudder's pedigree but sometimes you don't know how a horse will handle an off track. Heck I thought Fusaichi Pegasus was close to a sure thing but he got beat in the mud. Horse could be 1-5 by post time.

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

i love horse racing, but maybe i'm just not in the loop with it, as much as i am with baseball...

i was shocked to hear that trainers DO give their horses steroids. Big Brown's trainer admits to doping him every month!

http://www.congoo.com/news/2008May16/Brown-trainer-admits-giving-horse

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Michael,

I believe that is in the laws of most every racing state. All horses are on steroids.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Hmmmm...a barely regulated sport without regard to the health of their athletes. Sounds like baseball, but in this case the athlete lacks free will.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

The Preakness with its tight turns is a graveyard for Derby winners when a horse with speed gets out front and steals the race. Some very unlikely winners have knocked off horses which seemed unbeatable. Granted this year's crop of 3 year olds is not a super crop but you have to wonder if a horse like Gayego who won the Arkansas Derby wouldn't be a better bet as an across the board bet (WPS) than dropping a significant chunk on Big Brown's nose.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Bob,

I guess we will know in a few hours--I believe Big Brown is a superhorse and this is not a particularly strong field against him.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The Belmont presents the biggest challenge for Big Brown due to its distance. No way he loses today. I'm sure the horses will be pumped full of 'roids and beaten wildly with the whip. Fun.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Goff

Well, here we go again.(LOL) This is exciting times if you are a race horse fan. Big Brown WILL win the triple crown and that's what this sport needs...BADLY!!

Just this week, they released the autopsy for Eight Belles, the filly that was put down after the Derby, and there was not one drop of steroids in her. I know that a lot of horses are pumped full of performance enhancers, but I was somewhat pleased to hear that she was clean. Us in the state of Kentucky and Louisville in particular, are still saddened by the loss.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

What if whipping was banned? Would it really take away some of the enjoyment of watching the horses run? Or is it just about making the horses go as quickly as they can, concern about their safety be damned?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Wow--one of the all-time great horses here. Why didn't I bet more?

Here we have the first triple crown winner in 30 years.

Very exciting for horse racing fans.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, what did you win -- like $30 on that $150 bet?

And a Triple Crown winner will spike interest in horseracing much as Smarty Jones' run did a few years back. But it will just be a spark as attendance is plummeting nationally along with interest as a whole in horseracing. Our generation just doesn't care about it much and our kids will care about it even less.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

The Belmont is a mile and a half and there will be rested horses waiting for Big Brown. Here are the horses who won the Derby and Preakness who failed to win the Belmont. The list includes Northern Dancer and Spectacular Bid, arguably two of the greatest racehorses of all time.

2003 Funny Cide (third)
2002 War Emblem (eighth)
1999 Charismatic (third)
1998 Real Quiet (second)
1997 Silver Charm (second)
1989 Sunday Silence (second)
1987 Alysheba (fourth)
1981 Pleasant Colony (third)
1979 Spectacular Bid (third)
1971 Canonero II (fourth)r
1969 Majestic Prince (second)
1968 Forward Pass (second)
1966 Kauai King (fourth)
1964 Northern Dancer (third)
1961 Carry Back (seventh)
1958 Tim Tam (second)
1944 Pensive (second)

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Big Brown without going under the whip a single time...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Didn't Smarty Jones win the first two legs in 04?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Sounds about right--$250 on the Derby and $30 on the Preakness.

Bob,

True but Big Brown is the best of the bunch although Sunday Silence, Spectacular Bid and Northern Dancer were great horses.

Also, I don't see a great challenger stepping up? Colonel John? Gato de Malo?

I will be betting on Big Brown to win at the Belmont. $280 to win.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

i loved the blimp shot after the final turn when big brown turned on the after burners...wow...i've never seen a horse take off like that...

p.s. the jockey was so articulate while giving his post race narrative...

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

You've never seen Secretariat in the Belmont then -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoFquax2F-k&feature=related

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, Mike, if I recall didn't Secretariat win the Belmont by like 20 lengths? I don't think you can compare Big Brown to that horse. Even remotely.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Jim- Casino Drive has come from Japan, he is undefeated and won the Peter Pan Stakes at Belmont this year. He is also half-brother to Jazil and Rags to Riches who both won Belmonts running against two horses who had won the Derby and Preakness and were going to the Triple Crown. Interesting....

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Secretariat won by closer to 25 lengths. Sham, a very good horse, who came in second and challenged Secretariat in the Derby and Preakness was all out to win and was just destroyed and faded all the way to last.
There has never been a horse race like the 1973 Belmont.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Yes the list left off Smarty Jones in 2004.

While we are talking about tragedies at the race track, no one has mentioned the 1986 Kentucky Derby winner Ferdinand. He ended up in a Japanese slaughterhouse. I am not normally a violent person but I would like 10 minutes with these unbelievable cretins responsible for the death and torture of such a beautiful animal. I believe I could inflict some of my own pain and torture on them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKljURxhDg8&feature=related

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

guys, let me clarify...

i am very well aware of Secretariat...my family has always been involved in horse racing, my great uncle was a famous jockey, and have had other relatives who were trainers.

obviously Secretariat is a legend, and i was not comparing...(it was 31 lenghts for the record)...but what i simply was refering to was during today's final turn overhead shot...i personally (with my own eyes, i was born in 1974, so missed the '73 belmont), have never seen a horse accelerate like Big Brown did...watch the reply, i am sure they will show it a million times on sportscenter...

that was impressive.


ok, i'm off to a party...night night

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Bob,

Maybe it will be an interesti ng Belmont after all.

I do agree Secretariat was thr greatest horse I have ever seen.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

just to further clarify...

Secretariat's dominance of the field, was a very smooth, continuious acceleration, which lead to a 31 length destruction...

Big Brown's "burst" after the final turn, was very impressive, like a jolt or turbo boost...

that's all i'm sayin' kids...

p.s. my fondness of Secretariat led me to name a furniture line that i helped design 6 years ago, after the champion.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Bob,
Read farther up and you will see that I did make reference to the Ferdinand tragedy and also that the same fate had befallen Jockey Club Gold Cup winner Exceller and many others.

Also, I believe that Sham broke down in the Secretariat Belmont, though he did survive to go to stud.