Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Aaron writes of seeing a PSA 6 Wagner. He also says that if he told us the owner, we would understand why it is not in the pop reports. Not being a collector of slabbed cards, I'm unfamiliar with how the pop reports work. Specifically, does the card owner have the option to tell PSA to exclude it from the reports? If the answer is yes, then no real mystery. The owner is choosing to keep a low profile, which he/she has every right to do. If though PSA's policy is to include all slabbed cards in its pop reports, then how can this one be excluded? Especially being a PSA 6 Wagner, it's not like people would not notice the exclusion.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Corey, the owner of a graded card does not have the option to keep the card out of the pop report. However, as any person who has ever dealt with the Registry knows, it is COMPLETELY filled with errors. Shockingly so. And the incredible thing is that a mistake on a pop report for a low pop card of, say, one or two in number, can translate into a difference in value of thousands. And no one will ever know what the true pop is for a card.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Doesn't the 'G' in both examples present differently?
The 'pre-slab' shot has a G that curls down at the top of the letter, while the PSA8 G finishes more or less straight across at the top of the letter....

Daniel



Edited to add: The U also seems different in each example. On the 'pre-slab' the two sides of the U letter seem equal thickness, and on the PSA8 it looks like one side is thick and the other thinner..

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Don't kid yourself. The Card will sell again for a lot more than 2.35 million. The Card has only gone up 100% in the last 7 years, or so. The reason is the buyer knew the book would come out soon and did not want to pay too much.

It takes at least a year to write and publish a book, even members of this board knew that a controversial book was coming out soon after the purchase...it is not a stretch to believe the Buyer of the Card also knew. He underpaid for the card. Other T206 Hall of Famers went up a lot more than a 100% during the last 7 years or so. It is likely the Seller also knew about the book and did not want to chance unfavorable publicity by having a public auction so a private deal was made. I'm just speculating but it makes a lot of sense to me.

Peter

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Thanks for the response, Jeff.

I will say though that excluding the only known PSA 6 from the pop reports is one hell of an omission. What's also strange about it is one would think PSA would have a strong economic incentive to show it because having such a card in their holder (as opposed to a competitor's) would be quite a plum. Very strange!!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"The Card will sell again for a lot more than 2.35 million. ... The reason is the buyer knew the book would come out soon and did not want to pay too much."

I'm just going to let those words sit there for a while.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff,

Indications are both parties knew the Card was coming out and the 2.35 million represents a cautious price by both Buyer and Seller. Notoriety has never hurt the Gretzky/McNall Wagner. Bruce McNall's legal problems had little effect on the value of the Wagner. It is now the only card for which an entire book has been written about. I see the value of the Wagner going substantially up.

Peter

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Posted By: James Feagin

Peter,

My friend, your posts get seemingly more bizarre. How can $2.35 million be considered cautious if it is a record price? How can any bad press positvely effect the reputation and potential value of this card? It what hemisphere does the legal problems of a person affect a baseball card that person owns? Who cares? An altered piece means a heck of a lot more. With the book and articles like these going to the mainstream, it certainly can not help at all. How do you know that the party who bought this card knew a book would come out on this?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

In Peter's world, the fact that a book has come out which explains that the card is trimmed is equal in terms of impact on the card's value as the business reputation of one of the card's buyers.

Mouth agape, again.

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Posted By: JimB

Daniel raises good points about whether the newspaper photo is even a photo of the Gretzky Wagner. I think we would need a high res scan of the photo to begin to a decent comparative evaluation. At this point, I think the best we can say is that the evidence is inconclusive. I hope that whoever allowed for a newsprint copy to be printed would be kind enough to post a scan here (or somewhere).
JimB

edited for spelling

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Posted By: sagard

That card will continue to sell for higher prices as long as it is not proven counterfeit. Trimming is just something us baseball card nerds worry about, for this card it is irrevelant.

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Posted By: James Feagin

It's relavant enough for a major national newspaper to report on it, so yes, it is important. Especially if it is the card that defines the hobby.

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Posted By: peter chao

Certainly, we have dissected the book. It would not be difficult for us and the owners of the Card to write a scathing rebuttal. It will never be proven that the Gretzky Wagner was trimmed. All this furor will just add to the Wagner's mystique.

Peter

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Posted By: barrysloate

The status of the Gretzky Wagner has changed in one significant way: in the past, the rumors of it being trimmed were just background noise; now it has become headline news (in a tabloid kind of way). It may not affect the new owner's feeling about it one way or the other, but it has now entered new territory in terms of public perception.

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Posted By: Dylan

Instead of the trimming being more of a hush matter and focus being on the beauty of the card now all the focus will be on its suspected alteration, and perhaps rightly so if that "beauty" was acheived by a razor blade and ruler. I dont see how, in anyones mind, the card would sell for more if sold today. And some say any press is good press, but i dont think this is one of those situations.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Here are pairs of before and after pics, side by side and about the same size. They look like the same card to me, with slight trimming on the side borders of the encapsulated one. But I admit, it's hard to be sure...

I expect the current owner will hold on to the card until he decides to move on to some other collectible/investment, at which time he will need to find a buyer who will pay more than $2.35 million for it. I expect such a person would exist at that time, despite all the controversy; it only takes one...

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

The "U" in "PITTSBURG" looks taller in the Daily News article than on THE CARD. By a lot actually. I have to question if they both portray the same card.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Do you remember the myth about how Honus Wagner had this card pulled from the T-206 print run because he didn't want kids to think that smoking was cool.

Later on, I believe that his daughter said that the story wasn't true and the real reason was because Honus wasn't compensated for using his picture.

At any rate the debunking of that myth didn't hurt the Card. Neither will this controversy regarding the possible trimming. Remember, it will never be conclusively established that the Card was trimmed. Do you really think that Mastro or PSA will come forward with the truth. I doubt it.

However, they might come back with a scathing rebuttal.

Peter

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Posted By: barrysloate

If the card pictured in the Daily News article is not the same one in the PSA slab, then what exactly is it?

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Posted By: JimB

Forehead shading looks different too, but it could be an issue of the newsprint. We would really need to see a good scan of the photo to begin to make a determination.
JimB

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Posted By: E, Daniel

that feeds into the P also looks to meet at a different point in each card. It runs more at a 45 degree angle in the PSA8 and enters the P above the horizontal line section of the letter, while in the Daily News image the crease sort of goes horizontal as it meets with the letter and enters the P at exactly the middle portion of the horizontal stroke.....

Did I make any sense at all...???


Daniel

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Posted By: JimB

Also, the jersey fold on the PSA 8 coming down from above stops above the P and on the other card it comes down below the top fo the P. I also do not see any black border line between the orange and the border on the newsprint card. If I were a betting man, I would bet the newsprint card is not the same as the PSA 8. It may well not even be a photo of an authentic Wagner at all.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

If it's not the same card it is journalism at its sleaziest.

That's why I read the New York Times. They are saints!

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

FYI - The NY Daily News has updated the story with color photos of the card in "original" shape. Enjoy...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Good point, Peter. The debunking of the fable that Honus was against smoking -- as opposed to him wanting more cash for his likeness being used -- is certainly as significant to the value of a card as the possibility that it may be trimmed. I don't know how I could have missed that.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Perhaps that would answer some questions if someone can identify the manufacturer...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Whatever Jeff just said, I agree.

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Posted By: leon

I know you are only the messenger here but those are crappy looking color pictures, at best, that the Daily News put out. They don't even look like a real Wagner to me at all. I am surprised they don't have blue eyes. The black and white ones were better...though far from perfect. Sometimes I think they need to leave well enough alone....Most veterans believe it was cut from a sheet and probably trimmed after that.....and that is what our poll showed most believe, if I remember correctly.....Thanks for helping show the photos though....

edited as I was mistaking on which paper..sorry about that...

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's the Daily News, not the Times.

It is interesting how the News was able to make this new discovery just a month or so after the book was released. Coincidental, or just fortuitous timing?

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Posted By: JimB

This is the best I could do. Maybe others could do better. The photo really sucks.

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Posted By: martindl

James Feagin noted what I saw in the original B&W image what is now clearly seen in the new color image - the mark halfway down the left, a blemish of some sort. If the new image and the CARD are the same, then its not just trimming at right but a little color restoration at left perhaps?

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Posted By: Steve f

The plot thickens. great eyes out there

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Posted By: Joseph

Just for the halibut, thought I'd post the best quality present state "Card" scan I can:

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Posted By: Jay

Or perhaps the mark comes from the holder the card is in

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Posted By: JimB

Joseph,
Can you post a clear big scan of the photo next to it?
JimB

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Posted By: Joseph

Jim,

Can't really get a decent pic of the before photo to compare. In fact--based on this photographic evidence, I'm beginning to think that the card is NOT trimmed. Even though we, of course, almost all believe (ie know) it is.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

It looks like the same card to me from the tiny bit of registration problems on his shoulders to the bit of blue ink that bleeds out on the bottom border...the image appears to come out of the border on the lower left on both cards as well. I think it's a legit picture of "The Card".

edited to add - just looking at the blown up scan of the PSA 8 Wagner you can see that it is obviously trimmed by looking at all 4 corners. Pull a new Topps card out of a pack and look to see if the corners flare out like that.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

In a Thread, months ago, where I posted my theory on why the T206 Plank card is scarce, I also noted
that Wagner was a heavy cigar smoker most of his life. Furthermore, I noted the obvious contradiction
to his "anti-cigarette" myth in his appearance in the T216 series....
Not just once, but 4 different cards of him in each of the T216 issues (Kotton, MINO, Virginia Extra).
Actually, two different poses with each identifying him as a SS or a 2nd baseman.

All this went over like a "lead baloon" back then......anyhow, I'll add my "two drachmas" to the subject at
hand here. As one who saw this Wagner card in it's "raw" form back in the '80s when it was being shopped
around at the Willow Grove Show, the short glimpse I got of it wasn't enough to make a valid determination
as to whether it was altered in any way. But, I also recall the "buzz" that was asociated with this card to
the tune that it was.

Then in the early '90s, I got a closer look at this card at the Copeland sale at Sotheby's, and it was mind-
boggeling that the same card that no one would spring 25-30K for at Willow Grove just a few years before,
was being sold for 451K !

Finally, there appears to be two schools of thought on Net54 regarding this Wagner that breakdown along
the lines according to longevity in this hobby. The newer collectors tend to believe this card is "infallible".
The older group tend to be more skeptical regarding this card's true condition....despite the fact that it is
professionally graded.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Then again, it looked trimmed to me when I saw it in person at various Nationals.

Nice image, BTW, thanks for posting it.

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<Finally, there appears to be two schools of thought on Net54 regarding this Wagner that breakdown along
the lines according to longevity in this hobby. The newer collectors tend to believe this card is "infallible".
The older group tend to be more skeptical regarding this card's true condition....despite the fact that it is
professionally graded.>>

I don't want to say I'm a newer collector, but given that I'm only 31 years old, I don't think I quite yet am a hobby dinosaur. Perhaps a few more years.

I think there is a good portion of newer collectors that simply do not know what to think. There is ample evidence out there to at least be questioning of the card's true condition and how it may or may not have changed over the past 15 years. That said, there is also what appears to be a clear case of sour grapes by many of the hobby dinosaurs against a) both the card itself and b) some of the major players involved with the card over the past 15 years. As such, there is nothing definitive to sway the argument one way or another. At the end of the day, though, I think this continuing and ongoing debate only serves to raise the profile of the card itself...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Has Dave Forman ever weighed in on this?

For the record, how about those top corners? Isn't that a prototypical sign of trimming?

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Posted By: JimB

Marc S.
Well put.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's a little bowed at the top.

And I bet I could guess Dave Forman's opinion.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

I'm not the best grader in the world, but a PSA8? The bottom border is chipped, the corners are flared, it has print marks, and a small spot of orange ink in the top border. 8 seems a little high.

My first thought when I looked at the card was "trimmed", but what do I know?

Rick

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Posted By: JimB

Rick,
You have to consider that that image is blown up quite a bit, so the flaws are exaggerated. Look at the smaller photo and see how offensive they are. The chipping on the bottom tells me the bottom edge was NOT trimmed.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have to say though, the card is not lacking in eye appeal.

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Posted By: Marc S.

and others have simply said something along the lines of:

The best way to evaluate a card is outside of its holder. For high value cards, there are huge liability/damage concerns when opening up a card's plastic encapsulation. As such, they would not as a company ever put themselves in the situation as to free such a card as the Wagner from its holder, and they would not like to offer any professional opinions, one way or the other, without seeing the card outside of its holder.


It's basically a cop out answer, but I think we all agree that the best way to detect alterations, specifically of the trimming variety, is by closely examining a card's edges under loupe. That is not possible with the Wagner in its current encapsulated state.

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Posted By: Leon

One of the very few high grade cards that I own, the SGC 92 D304 I recently won, has some factory chipping on the bottom border. It's as it was manufactured....otherwise, I am not too great at detecting trimming (besides obvious stuff). I always thought the Wagner had a bat ear on the upper left corner and I have always been told it was ok....so what do I know?

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Posted By: Mark Evans

As with the view of the poll (per Leon), I am persuaded by the basic thesis of the book (card cut from sheet and then re-cut) for two related reasons -- first, the story is simply too bizarre to be made up out of thin air and second, none of the individuals involved has contradicted the story in a public forum. How this will affect the card's value I have no idea. Mark

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Posted By: barrysloate

I just finished reading the book a few moments ago. Contrary to many of the previous board opinions, I found it pretty intriguing. Wish he had somebody in the hobby proofread it though. I read his list of 30 rarest cards and among them was the N172 Anson in street clothes...think he got that one backwards.