Lesson learned; Max bid on eBay

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, the fact that you can construct an example where it works out the same does not disprove the proposition that sniping provides some measure of protection. You're smarter than that. Obviously, it cannot protect against a hidden reserve, but at the same time it can protect against someone running your early bid up to see how high it is, then retracting and exposing it so it can be run up again to just under the max. Your hypothetical assumes the consignor or seller won't let it go below a certain amount. Not always the case -- sometimes the consignor or seller just wants to maximize.

[packs]

Are you bound to pay for this item? I'd argue I lost the auction. This whole scenario would seem pretty fishy to me and I don't think I'd pay.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

Are you bound to pay for this item? I'd argue I lost the auction. This whole scenario would seem pretty fishy to me and I don't think I'd pay.

If I was the winning bidder and felt that I had been shilled, I MIGHT refuse to pay for the item. The OP's example looks really fishy to me.

But it really depends - there have been several times where I felt I had been shilled on en ebay item, but the price was so good that I wasn't willing to cut off my nose to spite my face. Sometimes I waited until after receiving the item, then complained to the seller. But usually I do nothing and just enjoy the item. It doesn't happen often enough for me to lose sleep over it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David, the fact that you can construct an example where it works out the same does not disprove the proposition that sniping provides some measure of protection. You're smarter than that. Obviously, it cannot protect against a hidden reserve, but at the same time it can protect against someone running your early bid up to see how high it is, then retracting and exposing it so it can be run up again to just under the max. Your hypothetical assumes the consignor or seller won't let it go below a certain amount. Not always the case -- sometimes the consignor or seller just wants to maximize.

Peter, I understand what you’re saying about the difference between a “hidden reserve” (“safety bid” or whatever else you want to call it) and someone running your bid up to expose your proxy, only to retract it so someone else can run you back up. Yes, my example was based on the hidden reserve and didn’t take into account the occasional bid retractor.

But I’ll say this. In the last year, I have won probably over 1000 items on eBay. My feedback shows 784 (within the last 12 months), but many of those were for multiple purchases (where the seller could only leave feedback once within a given time period) and it doesn't account for the purchases in which feedback wasn't left. In those 1000+ purchases, I don't think I once had a bidder retract his bid on an item I was bidding on.

I'm not naive, of course I know it (bid retractions) happens, but if it hasn't happened to me in the last 1000+ purchases, I have a hard time believing it happens to others on a regular basis. And I’m not saying it’s never been done to me. I’ve been on eBay for over 12 years, of course it has (but I honesly can't remember the last time). But in those situations (which are very rare) I usually just retract my bid as well just in case so I won’t be run up.

Sure, my examples were hypotheticals, but they were based on every day bidding habits. Your example (with the bid retraction) is a once in a blue moon type of thing because it really doesn't happen that often. My example happens way more often than your example.

I guess the bottom line is that we have different ways of dealing with bid retractors. Yours is to use a snipe, mine is to cancel my bid as well. That doesn’t make one way right and one way wrong. If a sniping service works for you, then great. To me, there are too many things that can go wrong (snipe not going off), so I'll pass.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I’ve been on eBay for over 12 years, of course it has (but I honesly can't remember the last time). But in those situations (which are very rare) I usually just retract my bid as well just in case so I won’t be run up.

The problem is when the bid is retracted right at the last minute (12 hrs before auction end), which is what happened with the OP. By retracting the bid at the last second, they have effectively revealed your max bid and put you in a situation where there is nothing you can do about it. That is very fishy and I probably would have alerted ebay and had them retract my bid over the phone, just out of principal.

Originally Posted by DanP

…
This morning that bid was retracted (conveniently just before the bid retraction limit of 12 hours of the end time).
…
I understand the "If you win the auction at what you bid, don't complain" thinking. However, this type of crap really irritates me. I tried to retract my bid but by the time I noticed what was going on it was within the 12 hour limit.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David -- surely you've seen the threads here about bidders in PWCC, Probstein and possibly elsewhere with incredible numbers of retractions. Now maybe spread out over as many auctions as there are, it's still a low percentage; or maybe the items you are bidding on are less likely to elicit that sort of misconduct than other types of items; but in any event it obviously happens with some frequency.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The problem is when the bid is retracted right at the last minute (12 hrs before auction end), which is what happened with the OP. By retracting the bid at the last second, they have effectively revealed your max bid and put you in a situation where there is nothing you can do about it. That is very fishy and I probably would have alerted ebay and had them retract my bid over the phone, just out of principal.

Scott, understood but, just to clarify, in the OPs situation the bidder didn't retract his bid (Dan misunderstood this). The bid was actually cancelled by the seller for certain reasons. But I get what you're saying - the result was the same - his proxy was exposed. Calling eBay and having them cancel your bid is a good solution too (assuming it is within that 12 hours and you can't do it yourself).

For the record, I still stand firm in my belief that the auction wasn't shilled.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David -- surely you've seen the threads here about bidders in PWCC, Probstein and possibly elsewhere with incredible numbers of retractions. Now maybe spread out over as many auctions as there are, it's still a low percentage; or maybe the items you are bidding on are less likely to elicit that sort of misconduct than other types of items; but in any event it obviously happens with some frequency.

Peter, I have seen the threads about all the bid retractions in Probstein's auctions. I haven't seen the same accusations about PWCC (if I have I really don't remember), but I'll take your word for it.

Either way, I avoid Probstein's auctions all together, so maybe I'm just not exposed to that (bid retractions) as much as some people?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Scott, understood but, just to clarify, in the OPs situation the bidder didn't retract his bid (Dan misunderstood this). The bid was actually cancelled by the seller for certain reasons. But I get what you're saying - the result was the same - his proxy was exposed. Calling eBay and having them cancel your bid is a good solution too (assuming it is within that 12 hours and you can't do it yourself).

For the record, I still stand firm in my belief that the auction wasn't shilled.

I forgot about that. If you can tell that it's a cancel rather than a retraction, I would contact the seller and express my concerns. If he was doing it to protect the auction (and legitimate bidders), I would not be concerned.

I rarely look for bid retractions on items I'm bidding on, but as you stated earlier - they probably don't occur that much.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Either way, I avoid Probstein's auctions all together, so maybe I'm just not exposed to that (bid retractions) as much as some people?

Same here. I no longer buy cards on ebay and don't even have searches set up any more.

[packs]

My question was more about eBay's rules. It says if you win the auction you're bound to the sale. But if you lose, what then? If I get outbid, that to me is a loss. I don't feel obligated to pay for something unless I win. Bid retractions/cancellations confuse me as to what my obligations would be.

Let's say you auction off a card. The winning bidder retracts their bid in the morning. Do you expect the second highest bidder to pay for the item? Or would you think it's their choice?

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by packs

My question was more about eBay's rules. It says if you win the auction you're bound to the sale. But if you lose, what then? If I get outbid, that to me is a loss. I don't feel obligated to pay for something unless I win. Bid retractions/cancellations confuse me as to what my obligations would be. I feel it should be my choice as to whether or not I'd like to pay.

Let's say you auction off a card. The winning bidder retracts their bid in the morning. Do you expect the second highest bidder to pay for the item? Or would you think it's their choice?

I have not had much success on the 'Bay even finding a card worthy of a bid lately. In days gone by, once I got outbid on a card, I generally funneled that money to an alternate choice. If I won the alternate and THEN was required to honor a bid that had been eclipsed, I would have been in trouble.

[packs]

That's my thinking too. Once I'm outbid I move on. I don't see why I should then have to commit to something I was outbid on because someone else changed their mind. Where would that end? What if 6 people retract?

[trdcrdkid]

There have been a few times on eBay where I was outbid for an item, then a few days to a week later, I got a "Second Chance Offer" from the seller, telling me that the winner had not paid, and that I could have the item for what I bid. I was under no obligation, but in a couple of those cases I did buy the item.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Let's say you auction off a card. The winning bidder retracts their bid in the morning. Do you expect the second highest bidder to pay for the item? Or would you think it's their choice?

Once the auction is over and there is a 'winning bidder' the winner can no longer retract their bid. They are the winner, they are locked in. Whether they choose to pay or not is a whole different topic.

I hope I understood your question correctly.

[packs]

I thought you had 12 hours to retract your bid. I didn't read every reply. Was that misinformation?

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Once the auction is over and there is a 'winning bidder' the winner can no longer retract their bid. They are the winner, they are locked in. Whether they choose to pay or not is a whole different topic.

I hope I understood your question correctly.

Yes that is a different circumstance. Still, I would have been screwed as I usually spent my entire card budget and then some. I guess I was lucky that I never got burned by a retracted bid.

[trdcrdkid]

As I understand it, you have 12 hours to retract your bid, but you can only do so as long as the auction is still going on. Once it's over, if you're the winning bidder you're obligated to buy the item for the winning amount.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I thought you had 12 hours to retract your bid. I didn't read every reply. Was that misinformation?

You can retract a bid any time during an auction, except within the last 12 hours. You can't retract a bid within the last 12 hours. Also, you can't retract a bid after the auction.

There are certain protections you still have after the auction, but eBay has to be involved. For example, if you realize you 'won' a fraudulent card, eBay can cancel the auction (even after it's over).

[packs]

Ah that is my confusion. I thought you had up to 12 hours after you placed the bid, auction over or not.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You can retract a bid any time during an auction, except within the last 12 hours. You can't retract a bid within the last 12 hours. Also, you can't retract a bid after the auction.

There are certain protections you still have after the auction, but eBay has to be involved. For example, if you realize you 'won' a fraudulent card, eBay can cancel the auction (even after it's over).

That might explain why I never had a problem. I either put in a token bid, trying to steal it, which got outbid early and often most of the time or I bid strong enough to hold the bid into the final 12 hours....

[smtjoy]

Different card, but more of the same, half price on the second time listed, my guess is its still not sold.....

3/9/15
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

2/18/15
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Different card, but more of the same, half price on the second time listed, my guess is its still not sold.....

3/9/15
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

2/18/15
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

LOL This is why even thought that seller has an item I would really really like I am not going to bid.