Super high end Mantle cards

[MantleMarisFordBerra]

These past couple posts about the overall mood pf Mantle vs. Mays brings another element up that has not been discussed yet: their personalities at card shows. When the hobby really exploded in the 80's, Mantle seemed friendly & good natured at autograph signings and Mays...well, he had a different reputation. I'm sure others will chime in with their experiences. It's not hard to imagine someone who looked up to Mays and then having a poor experience meeting him would be less likely to want to spend money continuing chasing his cards.

As far as Mantle pricing eventually tapering off, I've been online over 20 years and the concept of Mantle's cards cooling off gets brought up on various message boards & forums on a somewhat regular basis. I'm still waiting.

[Kingcobb]

I was born in the 60’s and remember watching Mantle in his final years 68 and 69 seems like he popped up and struck out a lot. But occasionally he would hit a home run and it would be like nothing else I think it brought back memories of his greatness in the 50’s and early 60’s and my Dad and Uncle would go crazy as well as the fans on TV. Those great memories had me wanting all the Mantle cards when I joined the work force. I think that’s what’s going on with his cards it just brings back great memories.

[Snapolit1]

Mantle may have been am amiable guy at card shows, but was also a surly drunk and perfectly obnoxious at times.

Originally Posted by MantleMarisFordBerra

These past couple posts about the overall mood pf Mantle vs. Mays brings another element up that has not been discussed yet: their personalities at card shows. When the hobby really exploded in the 80's, Mantle seemed friendly & good natured at autograph signings and Mays...well, he had a different reputation. I'm sure others will chime in with their experiences. It's not hard to imagine someone who looked up to Mays and then having a poor experience meeting him would be less likely to want to spend money continuing chasing his cards.

As far as Mantle pricing eventually tapering off, I've been online over 20 years and the concept of Mantle's cards cooling off gets brought up on various message boards & forums on a somewhat regular basis. I'm still waiting.

[DocScoot]

Read through the previous posts and realized mine added nothing new, nothing to see here :-)

[rats60]

Originally Posted by MantleMarisFordBerra

These past couple posts about the overall mood pf Mantle vs. Mays brings another element up that has not been discussed yet: their personalities at card shows. When the hobby really exploded in the 80's, Mantle seemed friendly & good natured at autograph signings and Mays...well, he had a different reputation. I'm sure others will chime in with their experiences. It's not hard to imagine someone who looked up to Mays and then having a poor experience meeting him would be less likely to want to spend money continuing chasing his cards.

As far as Mantle pricing eventually tapering off, I've been online over 20 years and the concept of Mantle's cards cooling off gets brought up on various message boards & forums on a somewhat regular basis. I'm still waiting.

That wasn't my experience from getting autographs at card shows.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Unfortunately, I don't remember for sure. Back then I started getting the Post cereal cards first since that's what I collected most as a kid. So the first Mantles I bought were probably $100 or less for the Post Mantles. They were and are typically less than Topps from the same years. I would guess the '52 Topps Mantle would have been maybe $2,000 at most. Maybe someone has a Beckett magazine from back then and can give us a more accurate figure. Local dealers were going by "book" value back then with almost everything priced at NM prices.

Here's the 1986 Beckett book prices on the 52 Mantle.

img799.jpg

[IMG]http[/IMG]

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Here's the 1986 Beckett book prices on the 52 Mantle.

Attachment 586390

[IMG]http[/IMG]

Obviously a big difference between Mays and Mantle which isn't surprising since Mantle is a high number (even if it is a double print). What is interesting to see is that Mays is listed for more than Jackie. Is that still true now?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Obviously a big difference between Mays and Mantle which isn't surprising since Mantle is a high number (even if it is a double print). What is interesting to see is that Mays is listed for more than Jackie. Is that still true now?

Took a quick stroll through some PSA sales data. Felt lazy so didn’t look at much, just PSA 5 for the last ~18 months. There’s a pretty wide range of prices, but they’re pretty comparable between Mays and Jackie. Some outliers that might push you one way or another, but right around $15k, give or take, for each of them.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think the issue is more likely to be the increase in supply in the coming years as the boomers hit life expectancy and the Mantle generations collections flood the market. There are an absurd number of Topps Mantles. There is at least 1 1968 Mickey for every collector.

On the other hand, post war Mantle is the most talked about player in this pre war board. People get pissed off if you observe indisputable facts about the pumped up 52, such as it being factually a double print or the SGC 9.5 has a lot of staining and damage for a card allegedly better than mint. Nobody gets upset if you point Wagner is not that rare. Hobby love of Mantle is entrenched and deeply emotional for some reason.

Totally agree about the floodgates opening in the next few years. While I still think Mantle card will have future value, I expect other players (Negro League players for example) to increase more in value than Mantle cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mantles have been flooding the market for as long as I have collected.

[packs]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Totally agree about the floodgates opening in the next few years. While I still think Mantle card will have future value, I expect other players (Negro League players for example) to increase more in value than Mantle cards.

What would be the basis for a Negro League player increase?

I tend to feel like Negro League cards have always had their own pricing that is totally independent of things like the HOF. Getting elected certainly helps, but there are plenty of Negro League players who will outsell well known HOFers every day of the week. Just wondering why you see a big increase coming? More elections to the HOF?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by packs

What would be the basis for a Negro League player increase?

I tend to feel like Negro League cards have always had their own pricing that is totally independent of things like the HOF. Getting elected certainly helps, but there are plenty of Negro League players who will outsell well known HOFers every day of the week. Just wondering why you see a big increase coming? More elections to the HOF?

Correct. Just generally more interest recently in these players. Additionally, many have very few cards, so its also supply vs demand.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Obviously a big difference between Mays and Mantle which isn't surprising since Mantle is a high number (even if it is a double print). What is interesting to see is that Mays is listed for more than Jackie. Is that still true now?

What about Campy selling for more then both Mays AND Jackie?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Totally agree about the floodgates opening in the next few years. While I still think Mantle card will have future value, I expect other players (Negro League players for example) to increase more in value than Mantle cards.

Agree 100% with both statements. Most Mickey cards seem to be the last card anyone wants to part with in their PC. The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is always difficult to buy privately from a collector, they can't part with it unless they have upgraded to another one. To me the 1952 Mantle #311 will always be the Post War Wagner....the Iconic Card of the Golden Era of Baseball Bubble Gum Card Collecting.

As for Negro League one could say the 1952 Topps Jackie or 1953 Topps Mays both High Number SP's both beautiful iconic cards. Portrait and Basket Catch!

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Maybe it's just the vagaries of how markets play out and how a hobby develops.

I'm guessing in the world of car collecting there are probably similar things, where the 1967 Camaro is worth like 15 times the 1969 Camaro and other cool cars but it's always been that way in the hobby and hard to explain rationally why it developed that way. Just always been that way.

And, no, I know nothing about cars.....

I do collect cars (1955-1974) and the car world is changing rapidly. When I was a kid growing up...6 cylinders and 4 doors were junk, even if it was a 55-57 Chevy. The youth coming up was not raised the way I was, and now the availability of the previous "junk" is rapidly growing in value and popularity. A total example of youth coming up questioning why things were they way they were.

I don't know if that translates to cards, probably doesn't...but I was born after Mantle retired and am still obsessed with him and his legacy...

[Harliduck]

Dual post?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

What about Campy selling for more then both Mays AND Jackie?

Campy played a huge role in integrating baseball and was a great ball player. Unfortunately all was overshadowed by his terrible accident.

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

What about Campy selling for more then both Mays AND Jackie?

Campy was in the high number series and was not a double print. I think that had a bearing on the values back then.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Campy was in the high number series and was not a double print. I think that had a bearing on the values back then.

It certainly did in my mind 40 years ago. Even prior to that, in 1972, the publication of THE BOYS OF SUMMER had me interested in all those BOYS OF SUMMER, especially Campanella. Viewing Ron Greenwood's collection of 53-55 Stahl-Meyer Franks masterpieces at the 1972 Midwest Sports Collectors Convention was eye-opening, for sure. I was mesmerized by the Stahl-Meyer Campanella. Later, I traded a 68 Topps 3D Mel Stottlemyre to Larry Fritsch for the 52 Topps Roy Campanella. A high school chum gave me the 3D of Stot for free. Larry was happy; I was very happy. Meanwhile, back to the OP...

Regardless of the revelation Mantle, Robinson, and Thomson were double-printed, collectors back then were making a furious effort to obtain Mick and Jack, particularly. Being as it was 1980 / 81 when the double-print discovery was made, the adult hobby was so on fire it didn't matter; the demand was sky-high.

It seems to me the demand for Mickey Mantle cards has been extremely strong since before I began collecting in 1961. Demand for Jackie Robinson has progressively increased through the years. Speaking about Jack, there just are not many issues having a card of him. The key is Jackie signed an exclusive contract with Topps, and he understood that to be nobody else. For Mickey, the bubblegum card exclusivity ended when Bowman went out of business at the end of '55. Of course, 98% of you know this, and I need to keep it focused on Mr. Mantle, as the OP talks about.

The thinking that it is pivotal in your card collecting focus, desire, and pursuit whether or not you saw the player play, whether at a game or on TV, is flat-out irrelevant. IF you had the privilege to see the player, I know it is a plus, but it's not a determining factor. It seems to me if you had a Dad or Mom that particularly liked a certain player, that often will play a bigger role than seeing them. Still, speaking out of both sides of my mouth, I began watching Chicago Cub games on TV in 1967, and I do admit being particularly thrilled and affected by the home runs I saw Ernie Banks hit!

Nevertheless, I never saw Mickey Mantle play, live or on TV, yet while he played, it was always my biggest cardboard thrill each year to get Mickey's card, not Ernie, Willie, Hank, Roberto, Sandy, or Don Drysdale. You probably weren't that way, but that's how I was.

In the end, we associate many things with many things. Nothing is wrong, as long as collecting brings us some happiness. (and we don't overspend........)


Have a good day. Keep it coming. --- Brian Powell

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Campy played a huge role in integrating baseball and was a great ball player. Unfortunately all was overshadowed by his terrible accident.

Oh, absolutely. It was more of a comment of how much more respect he had then in the hobby, as compared to now. Guy won 3 MVP’s, was the dominant catcher in his league for nearly a decade, and was a star in the Negro Leagues for years, before getting his late start in the MLB.

Despite his resume, outside of a few key cards, most of his cards can be had at Mid-tier HOF’er prices.

That guide just proves, he used to be much more appreciated by collectors. I was doing shows back in the late 80’s, and I remember collectors treating Campy with almost the same reverence as Jackie. Not so much today.

[toppcat]

In August 2020, with a lot of time on my hands (like many of us then) I wrote a series of three lengthy posts on pricing trends of the Mantle and some other cards since 1953. Some of you may find these to be of interest:

https://www.thetoppsarchives.com/202...es-opener.html

https://www.thetoppsarchives.com/202...for-money.html

https://www.thetoppsarchives.com/202...ng-lights.html

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Oh, absolutely. It was more of a comment of how much more respect he had then in the hobby, as compared to now. Guy won 3 MVP’s, was the dominant catcher in his league for nearly a decade, and was a star in the Negro Leagues for years, before getting his late start in the MLB.

Despite his resume, outside of a few key cards, most of his cards can be had at Mid-tier HOF’er prices.

That guide just proves, he used to be much more appreciated by collectors. I was doing shows back in the late 80’s, and I remember collectors treating Campy with almost the same reverence as Jackie. Not so much today.

Maybe it's metrics? Short career of course, but still, only 17th among catchers by JAWS.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe it's metrics? Short career of course, but still, only 17th among catchers by JAWS.

Jackie was a striking regal looking man. Campy? A little funny looking. Maybe the Yogi Berra effect.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Jackie was a striking regal looking man. Campy? A little funny looking. Maybe the Yogi Berra effect.

Toughest position in baseball by a country mile, yet catchers get no love from collectors, or historians in general.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How much was, say, an EX one in 1986?

I just bought an old baseball card book, "The Great American Baseball Card Flipping, Trading and Bubble Gum Book". Included were Becket Price guides from 1982 & 1983. here's the prices then:

1982: $700 MINT, $350 VG-EX $120 F-G
1983: $1000 VG, $1550 Mint


I can tell you how much it was in 1975. $75 Doll Hairs. I bought one from a well know dealer...that never came. He sent me 3 cards and a $25 credit memo.

https://youtu.be/GR4_i3uphh8?si=nOFbnLJ8dyf9nnxt&t=150

Say it with me Folks and see how easy it rolls off the tounge with the southern drawl...Mickey Mantle. And I'm a Dodger Fan

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I just bought an old baseball card book, "The Great American Baseball Card ...

Say it with me Folks and see how easy it rolls off the lounge with the southern drawl...Mickey Mantle. And I'm a Dodger Fan

Well said, and spot on!

I well remember Boyd and Harris's baseball card book. For what it's worth, my favorite entries concerned Ted Williams (no matter how hard you tried), Tom Tresh (Tommy, baby, maybe they made the pants too long!), Robin Roberts, Rocky Colavito, and perhaps especially.....Whammy Douglas (somebody has GOT to be putting me on). I might be confusing Douglas for somebody else, but cut me some slack---it's been 50 years since I seriously looked at that whimsical book. You may not learn all that much, but you'll be very entertained. --- Brian Powell

[puckpaul]

https://youtu.be/fVpKthuQCSc?si=NamBiTce17BDBN1z

Here, now you can show your great grandkids and they can say they saw Mantle play.

How many on this board have seen Ohtani play? Twelve Angels fans?

[packs]

This idea that you had to see someone play to appreciate them is bizarre especially when you consider that if you lived in, say, Philadelphia and grew up a Phillies fan in the 1950s you would have never seen Mantle play either. It's not like you could have watched him on TV. And the Phillies didn't make a World Series appearance his entire career.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

https://youtu.be/fVpKthuQCSc?si=NamBiTce17BDBN1z

Here, now you can show your great grandkids and they can say they saw Mantle play.

How many on this board have seen Ohtani play? Twelve Angels fans?

Just saw him in NY. Half the crowd seemed to be wearing red.

[Snapolit1]

It's not that you needed to see him play . . . . it's just that Mantle's cards seems to have a widely disproportionate level of love among collectors than what is reflected in his broader impact. They are people like Ruth, Jordan, Gretzky who are iconic personalities. Not coincidentally, they are the gold standard in their respective sports. Then, on the other end of the spectrum are guys like Sherry Magee, who are hobby icons, and have zero cultural or even baseball resonance to anyone outside the hobby. (Or this board!) Then you have the rest of players between those goalposts.

Mays will pass at some point relatively soon and the accolates will pour in that he was one of the great 3 or 4 baseball players of all time. And people will argue that his cards aren't on the same level as Mantle because he wasn't smiling. Or was rude at a card show? Alrighty. . . . Go for it.

I've always figured that Mantle is huge because in the hobby because the snapshot of who has half a million or a million to spend on a piece of card board are men of a certain age who either saw him play or identified with him. If he was your idol and you are a wealthy man I get it. If you are 30 years old collecting Mantle I think morely likely than not you are investing. And nothing wrong with that either.

Originally Posted by packs

This idea that you had to see someone play to appreciate them is bizarre especially when you consider that if you lived in, say, Philadelphia and grew up a Phillies fan in the 1950s you would have never seen Mantle play either. It's not like you could have watched him on TV. And the Phillies didn't make a World Series appearance his entire career.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

It's not that you needed to see him play . . . . it's just that Mantle's cards seems to have a widely disproportionate level of love among collectors than what is reflected in his broader impact. They are people like Ruth, Jordan, Gretzky who are iconic personalities. Not coincidentally, they are the gold standard in their respective sports. Then, on the other end of the spectrum are guys like Sherry Magee, who are hobby icons, and have zero cultural or even baseball resonance to anyone outside the hobby. (Or this board!) Then you have the rest of players between those goalposts.

Mays will pass at some point relatively soon and the accolates will pour in that he was one of the great 3 or 4 baseball players of all time. And people will argue that his cards aren't on the same level as Mantle because he wasn't smiling. Or was rude at a card show? Alrighty. . . . Go for it.

I've always figured that Mantle is huge because in the hobby because the snapshot of who has half a million or a million to spend on a piece of card board are men of a certain age who either saw him play or identified with him. If he was your idol and you are a wealthy man I get it. If you are 30 years old collecting Mantle I think morely likely than not you are investing. And nothing wrong with that either.

Look at the list you rattled off for greats of their sports: Ruth, Jordan and Gretzky. Ruth won 7 titles. Jordan won 6 titles. Gretzky won 4 Stanley Cups.

Willie Mays won a single World Series.

Mantle won 7 of them. I think that's probably why Mantle occupies his space. He is forever seen as a champion. Mays, though great in his own right, won't be seen that way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Obviously he did not do it alone, but Mantle's teams won the pennant an astonishing 12 out of his first 14 seasons, after which he went into decline and they did not win again.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by packs

Look at the list you rattled off for greats of their sports: Ruth, Jordan and Gretzky. Ruth won 7 titles. Jordan won 6 titles. Gretzky won 4 Stanley Cups.

Willie Mays won a single World Series.

Mantle won 7 of them. I think that's probably why Mantle occupies his space. He is forever seen as a champion. Mays, though great in his own right, won't be seen that way.

Ty Cobb won 0 World Series. How many here consider him the greatest of all time?

[Peter_Spaeth]

For what it is worth, or not, Bill James ranked Cobb 5th and Mantle 6th. I don't see any argument for Cobb as 1st.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For what it is worth, or not, Bill James ranked Cobb 5th and Mantle 6th. I don't see any argument for Cobb as 1st.

Joe Posnanski's top 11:

1)Willie Mays
2)Babe Ruth
3)Barry Bonds
4)Henry Aaron
5)Oscar Charleston
6)Ted Williams
7)Walter Johnson
8)Ty Cobb
9)Stan Musial
10)Satchel Paige
11)Mickey Mantle

I am sure that will not start any fights

[packs]

People consider Cobb perhaps the greatest hitter of all time but no one sees him in the same light as they do Mantle so I’m not sure what Cobb brings to the conversation. Most people still think the book Cobb is an accurate reflection of his life.

Who considers him more popular than Mantle?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

Joe Posnanski's top 11:

1)Willie Mays
2)Babe Ruth
3)Barry Bonds
4)Henry Aaron
5)Oscar Charleston
6)Ted Williams
7)Walter Johnson
8)Ty Cobb
9)Stan Musial
10)Satchel Paige
11)Mickey Mantle

I am sure that will not start any fights

LOL. It may be the only list I've seen with Ruth not first.

[G1911]

Ruth not first, 6/11 played together in the early 50’s. Seems like somebody’s list of favorites rather than an actual greatest list.


One does not need to see somebody to appreciate them, but is obviously true that the majority of people have a leaning to the people they saw or grew up liking. Young people are collecting Acuna, Trout and Ohtani instead of names from history books because they are contemporary and they watch them.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by packs

People consider Cobb perhaps the greatest hitter of all time but no one sees him in the same light as they do Mantle so I’m not sure what Cobb brings to the conversation. Most people still think the book Cobb is an accurate reflection of his life.

Who considers him more popular than Mantle?

As I understand it, that is the core of Steve's point: that Mantle has had an unusually large gap between his popularity with collectors and his on-field performance, and the question is how much that is subject to change as those who saw him play leave the scene. Younger collectors, for example, seem to put a lot of stock in WAR (more, in my opinion, than it merits, but that's a different discussion). And Mantle can't really hold a candle to Mays or Aaron in WAR. So will they maintain Mantle's popularity/performance gap?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Obviously he did not do it alone, but Mantle's teams won the pennant an astonishing 12 out of his first 14 seasons, after which he went into decline and they did not win again.

Yogi won 1O WS. I can't remember the last thread on the board discussing his cards.

[packs]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

As I understand it, that is the core of Steve's point: that Mantle has had an unusually large gap between his popularity with collectors and his on-field performance, and the question is how much that is subject to change as those who saw him play leave the scene. Younger collectors, for example, seem to put a lot of stock in WAR (more, in my opinion, than it merits, but that's a different discussion). And Mantle can't really hold a candle to Mays or Aaron in WAR. So will they maintain Mantle's popularity/performance gap?

Yes, for the reasons I outlined. Also my post was about Mays vs Mantle and not Mantle vs Cobb. I don't really see Cobb having a place in the conversation. Mantle will always be more popular than Mays because Mantle was a winner. Him being a winner will never change so people's opinions about winners would need to be watered down, which I don't see happening.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yogi won 1O WS. I can't remember the last thread on the board discussing his cards.

Yogi was not an elite home run hitter or even hitter. He won with teams that first had DiMaggio, then Mantle. To people very sophisticated in baseball, he may have been even more valuable (see Casey Stengel's famous remark) but not to the world in general.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yogi won 1O WS. I can't remember the last thread on the board discussing his cards.

I mentioned Mantle's championships only in relation to his hobby status over Mays. I didn't suggest that everyone who's ever won a championship is better than someone who didn't, or better than someone who won less than they did.

I would say the same thing about Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams though. Joe D was a winner. Ted was not. If you ask me, that's why Joe D is the more popular player in the hobby. It doesn't make him "better" but I think it certainly makes him more popular and helps keep his cards at the elite level they are.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Mantle himself couldn't understand why.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As Paul Simon sang, every generation throws a hero up the pop charts. That hero, indisputably, was Mantle. Who by the way was Simon's inspiration for the great verse from Mrs. Robinson, but DiMaggio worked better musically.

[gonefishin]

Although is, and always has been, my favorite player. The 2 best hitters to ever play the game were Pete Rose and Ted Williams. I will state that neither have ever appealed to me in the collecting world.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As Paul Simon sang, every generation throws a hero up the pop charts. That hero, indisputably, was Mantle. Who by the way was Simon's inspiration for the great verse from Mrs. Robinson, but DiMaggio worked better musically.

Thank you, Peter, for that nice little nugget of information. I did not know Paul Simon had been inspired to use Mickey Mantle for the renown stanza / verse from Mrs. Robinson. Ten years ago or so, I was musing about the song, and replaced DiMag with Mantle. As I remember, it went something like this:

Where have you gone, Mickey Mantle?
Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you,
woo woo woo.
What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson?
The Mighty Mick has left and gone away
Oy Vey,
Oh woe.

Paul Simon made his choice, and it worked. However, I still wish I could have gone back in time, to try to convince him....

It's all good, Peter. Thanks again for sharing the story. Wishing you the best.

--- Brian Powell

[Peter_Spaeth]

The songwriter's favorite Yankee was actually Mickey Mantle, and according to Wikipedia, when Dick Cavett asked why Mantle's name wasn't used instead of DiMaggio, Simon replied "It's about syllables, Dick. It's about how many beats there are."

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The songwriter's favorite Yankee was actually Mickey Mantle, and according to Wikipedia, when Dick Cavett asked why Mantle's name wasn't used instead of DiMaggio, Simon replied "It's about syllables, Dick. It's about how many beats there are."

Fun.

I always figured it was more a function of Italian Renaissance Men like DiMaggio working better under the auspices of the liberal arts.

[Grigsby]

it's baseball cards

it's pop culture.

Marilyn Monroe, Elvis, The Mick

Was Monroe the BEST actress of her generation? NO

Was Elvis the BEST musician of his era? NO

After all these years it all becomes pop culture, not reality

Glorified memories