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#51
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JK
Rather than a trade group or code of conduct, simply create something like the better business bureau where people can report their problems. Its self-policing. |
#52
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Peter: |
#53
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
Well, there could be a rough round table discussion at the reading show???? Just a thought… |
#54
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Al, |
#55
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Rhys
If you go back and look at about 5-10 different posts on this forum dating back about 4 years, you will see that I was pretty much the only person to espouse the idea of a collectors association that self polices what is going on in the hobby. Each and every time I brought it up, it was met with resistance and people treated the idea like it was a pipe dream. I am not caiming I invented the idea as other hobbies and even this one have or did have organizations before I was born, but I have been baffled that the Sports Collectibles Hobby does not have one since all these forgeries and repro cards have come out of the woodwork in the last 5 or so years. I first started thinking about this idea with my brother Rhett because we both collect other things and almost every hobby besides cards has a functioning association that WORKS. |
#56
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
Josh, good thought but essentially we have that here. People can report their problems and do; the next step is how do you enforce or investigate these complaints, then what actions are then taken? |
#57
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: barrysloate
John- according to the guidelines you posted anyone who would be chosen to oversee the industry could not have any affiliation with it due to potential conflict of interest. That unfortunately would include all of us. We each have developed relationships over the years with collectors and dealers, and there might be a bias if your favorite dealer was under suspicion and you were chosen to look into his business more carefully. So you would need a group who have no connection to the hobby whatsoever; thus, they would have to be noncollectors. How are we going to find people from the outside unless they are paid substantial salaries? Collectors may be willing to volunteer their services for the betterment of the industry, but impartial third parties would not. |
#58
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: T206Collector
[Figuring out an acceptable set of standards for the entire hobby will be easy.] |
#59
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: BcD
Fuzz |
#60
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
Barry, you are correct there is a problem there. My above guidelines were showing what is the norm when these kind of firms are put in place. You will also notice that in my reply to Jim that it doesn’t have to be as black and white. |
#61
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
Paul, |
#62
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: MVSNYC
"Regardless of the verdict of juries... no dealer (or auction house) who alters a card... no dealer who undertakes, or promises to alter a card... no dealer who sits in conference with a bunch of crooked dealers and auctioneers, where the ways and means of altering cards are discussed, and does not promptly tell his customer about it...will ever sell baseball cards again." |
#63
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: T206Collector
We're a lot closer on this than I thought. I also have no problem with erasing marks and or removing glue from cards. And like you, I don’t view this as altering the card. While I do not think there is an affirmative "duty to disclose," I agree that it should lower the overall value of the item, if detectable. And also agree that grading companies provide the MK qualifier or a lowered grade if they see evidence of it. |
#64
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Paul, John, Barry and Peter, |
#65
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Paul and John(Wonka)--where do you guys live? |
#66
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
Jim, |
#67
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: BcD
where's the photos requested? |
#68
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: barrysloate
Wouldn't you also get the MK qualifier if you had a card graded that had an ink mark or stamp on the back even if there was no atttempt to erase it? For example, a card that would be VG but it has an initial on the back. That would get a 3 MK, but I may be wrong. Also, asking someone to admit in a sale that they removed a light pencil mark from the back of the card, say a blank backed Old Judge, might be expecting a little too much. I don't think even I would mention that if the erasure were invisible, and I think I am a reasonably ethical person. I think there are things exponentially worse than that going on, such as cards that have been rebacked that now reside in holders (yes, that really exists), so I hope we all agree that a stray pencil mark isn't something we should focus too much attention on. |
#69
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
John, |
#70
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: BcD
I have nine of the PSA 8 Old Judge cards available |
#71
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: barrysloate
Brian- if you've examined them under a microscope, they are probably fine. Hope they were given the same rigorous test the first time around. |
#72
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
Barry, good points. I said it should be disclosed, and I know its wishful thinking on my part. Also for the most part the pencil thing is the least offensive IMO, even if you said a small spot was erased, I doubt it would really impact my purchase price on a tough card, on a more common card though it might have an impact. |
#73
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: barrysloate
John- Actually, a stain like that might not be easily removed and would take a chemical solvent to get off. So do we agree that that is a step beyond erasing a stray pencil mark, or is it exactly the same thing? This is a perfect example where we need to agree on standards of ethics. |
#74
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
Not just a step beyond, but a whole pole vault IMO. I think were on the same page here at least for me that is... |
#75
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: T206Collector
...for that tape mark -- soaking with water or heating with a hair dryer. I doubt either would do the trick. |
#76
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Jerry Hrechka
I'm a Non-Sports card collector. The BS I've read over the last few days is exactly the reason I quit collecting BB cards in the early 90's. I don't want to get into scoping, microscope examining, micrometer measuring, or carbon dating small pieces of cardboard. |
#77
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Dave
with all due respect...this is a vintage baseball card forum as the headline says.....have fun with your non sports cards, i'm sure there are sites for that as well |
#78
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
Jerry, |
#79
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JudgeDred2
Wonk, |
#80
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
JudgeDred, |
#81
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Frank Evanov
Jim, I certainly applaud and support your efforts here. I think Peter's point about disclosure has merit also. |
#82
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Mark Evans
Another function that might be performed by a collectors' association is education. (Sorry if previously mentioned.) So, for example, if the Association is to issue a certification (Seal of Approval) to dealers, auction houses and graders, it might require as a prerequisite that they complete a course on ethics generally, as well as on the specifics of the adopted Code of Conduct. The course could be offered by the Association at the National and/or on the internet. And, depending on how ambitious the Association, some version of the course could be offered as well to the public/collectors generally, again perhaps at the National. Mark |
#83
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: leon
If ya'll want to throw out some poll questions we can make them happen in a poll at the top......maybe a week or two at a time. IF someone wants to collect the data then we can be off and running...any volunteers....and questions for the poll please?? Or better idea's.... |
#84
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Leon, |
#85
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: leon
Just let me know when you are ready. I started another thread to show I really want to help but saved it to a word doc and deleted it. Ball is in your court...take care |
#86
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Anonymous
Who would have thought a hobby could become so all consuming? Can this be healthy? That sucking sound is the disappearance of fun. It is no wonder that many non-collecting people consider us men/women that are hopelessly trapped in our childhoods. Please Jim, stop embarrassing us! Soon it won't even be possible to hide in a crowd. |
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