Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[cammb]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

i think it was in jane leavy's book, mantle is quoted as saying to roseboro the first time he sees koufax's big curve, how in the *&^*( am i supposed to hit that?

b i n g o !!!!!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think it was in Jane Leavy's book, Mantle is quoted as saying to Roseboro the first time he sees Koufax's big curve, how in the *&^*( am I supposed to hit that?

Play against Sandy anywhere other than Dodger Stadium

[clydepepper]

First Game I ever saw on TV influenced me a lot:

31x42 SANDY KOUFAX Autographed Poster.jpg

1964 Topps- KOUFAX Strikes Out 15 PSA.DNA.jpg1963 World series Game1 Ticket - Sandy Koufax PSA-DNA.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Play against Sandy anywhere other than Dodger Stadium

LOL but Game 1 was in Yankee Stadium.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

First Game I ever saw on TV influenced me a lot:

Attachment 487395

Attachment 487398Attachment 487399

That's the game I was referring to. If I recall Koufax struck out the side in the first, then (allegedly) stared over at the Yankee dugout although Whitey Ford denied it and it does seem out of character.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's the game I was referring to. If I recall Koufax struck out the side in the first, then (allegedly) stared over at the Yankee dugout although Whitey Ford denied it and it does seem out of character.

He struck out the first five, but, as the added photo shows, Mickey got him late.

Ooops! Tresh got him in the bottom of the eighth in that game, Mickey got him in top of seventh in Game 4.

As important as I say this game was to me, I'm getting older...so there...at least I caught it before everyone else did.

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Koufax apparently really did not like throwing at people or even brushing them back, which played a role in the Roseboro Marichal incident. But, and I think this is from the Leavy book, once he got so angered by Lou Brock's baserunning antics that he drilled him hard in the back. Brock picks himself up, walks slowly to first, and promptly steals second.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Your rationale suggests had you seen Grove go 28-5 in 1930 and 31-4 the following year (and 2-1 in the World Series each of those years) you'd say Grove.

This. A fond memory and sentimental attachment has nothing to do with any objective question of best, it is purely “my favorite”. These are completely different things.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nostalgia bias.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL but Game 1 was in Yankee Stadium.

Didn't say you could always hit it but, if you're going to, outside of Dodger Stadium is the way

[Deertick]

Now that it has been definitively established that Grove was the best LHP of all time and Koufax should not even be in the discussion, is there a statistician who can create a formula to determine whether any given poster is either:
A) A common troll
B) An insufferable egotist
or
C) Just generally a complete AH?

Bonus points if the algorithm can determine historical Net54 ranking.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

How about everyone self-report which of those three they think they are guilty of being.

I'm definitely a B) but I work hard at taming it. Anyone else wanna be honest?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

How about everyone self-report which of those three they think they are guilty of being.

I'm definitely a B) but I work hard at taming it. Anyone else wanna be honest?

I'm a common troll. By the way, the Hunt live auction is going on right now. Lots of great stuff.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Now that it has been definitively established that Grove was the best LHP of all time and Koufax should not even be in the discussion, is there a statistician who can create a formula to determine whether any given poster is either:
A) A common troll
B) An insufferable egotist
or
C) Just generally a complete AH?

Bonus points if the algorithm can determine historical Net54 ranking.

Yourself included?

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by cammb

Yourself included?

I'm definitely part of the data set.

And Scott, I thought you would select C) A complete Auction House.

[G1911]

I'll nominate myself for C - a complete asshole, as I'm still awaiting a math-based logically consistent argument for Koufax like has been presented for the others.

[clydepepper]

I still don't think Warren Spahn gets enough credit when ranking all-time greatest lefties.

I'll be honest and state that I am a nice guy, though, because I detest arrogance, I don't admit it very often.

Koufax is my FAVORITE.

IMHO, the GOAT for lefties is either Grove or RJ.


I'm also a HUGE Billy Wagner fan, but that's another discussion.

I loved the fact that 'my' Braves clinched using three left-handers.


US LEFTIES RULE!

.


.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I still don't think Warren Spahn gets enough credit when ranking all-time greatest lefties.

I'll be honest and state that I am a nice guy, though, because I detest arrogance, I don't admit it very often.

Koufax is my FAVORITE.

IMHO, the GOAT for lefties is either Grove or RJ.


I'm also a HUGE Billy Wagner fan, but that's another discussion.

I loved the fact that 'my' Braves clinched using three left-handers.


US LEFTIES RULE!

.


.

Plus 1 on Spahn, plus one on lefties from a lefty.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I'm also a HUGE Billy Wagner fan, but that's another discussion.

.

The best reliever not in the Hall - and better than nearly all that are.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I'm definitely part of the data set.

And Scott, I thought you would select C) A complete Auction House.

See, there's a sign my ego is overinflated. If I was so damn smart I'd have thought of that!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'll nominate myself for C - a complete asshole, as I'm still awaiting a math-based logically consistent argument for Koufax like has been presented for the others.

A "math-based logically consistent argument" has been provided for exactly zero pitchers thus far in this thread. You guys may as well be picking your favorite Power Ranger. No shame in that though. Some people like pink, others prefer green.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

A "math-based logically consistent argument" has been provided for exactly zero pitchers thus far in this thread. You guys may as well be picking your favorite Power Ranger. No shame in that though. Some people like pink, others prefer green.

Numerous people have been able to make a statistical argument for the candidate they think best that is not contradictory. Welcome back.

[frankbmd]

Pondering the imponderable is what we do best on this forum.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Snowman

A "math-based logically consistent argument" has been provided for exactly zero pitchers thus far in this thread. You guys may as well be picking your favorite Power Ranger. No shame in that though. Some people like pink, others prefer green.

I really don’t quite get this. Pull up stats, many sites provide them. Spahn, for example, didn’t just pitch for a long time - he also led the league in a ton of categories that seem important. I don’t need to be a statistician to think that combined with his all time leading careen wins, leading the league all those times means the guy was better than “above average” or whatever phrase you used. I’m just a cave man lawyer but even I can figure some of this out. Please provide your algorithm that puts Spahn at just “above average” or admit you’re trolling just a little.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

A "math-based logically consistent argument" has been provided for exactly zero pitchers thus far in this thread. You guys may as well be picking your favorite Power Ranger. No shame in that though. Some people like pink, others prefer green.

I've been waiting for you to give me a "math-based, logically consistent argument" to my comparison of Grove and Koufax's World Series performances. Perhaps you missed it??

[G1911]

If one makes an appeal to their own authority, self-granted and thus unquestionable, one need not support anything they say with statistics as we do, even though the root of the fallacious appeal to authority is that no one else can discuss statistics.

I'm starting to think this statistical basis that objectively and conclusively proves Spahn is "above average at best" because he played in the old days and his exact contemporary Koufax is the GOAT, is a complete fiction. Maybe I'm a bit of a cynic, but not a single shred of evidence has been produced to support this stunning claim to total authority. I'd love for it to check out so we can immediately resolve all baseball discussions with this new oracle.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I really don’t quite get this. Pull up stats, many sites provide them. Spahn, for example, didn’t just pitch for a long time - he also led the league in a ton of categories that seem important. I don’t need to be a statistician to think that combined with his all time leading careen wins, leading the league all those times means the guy was better than “above average” or whatever phrase you used. I’m just a cave man lawyer but even I can figure some of this out. Please provide your algorithm that puts Spahn at just “above average” or admit you’re trolling just a little.

I don't have the time to write the algorithm necessary to calculate it right now. But I've done A LOT (well in excess of 1,000 hours worth of coding) on similar baseball problems to estimate the value of pitchers and hitters for the purposes of "gambling" on baseball over the past 10 years. We'd have to agree on a definition of "better" first. Then I'd need to control for the parks they pitched in, the changes in mound heights, the expansion and contraction of the strike zones they were subject to, the defensive capabilities of their teammates, the speed of the hitters they faced, and the hitting talent they faced. I don't have the time for that, so I say I don't know who was better between Koufax, Randy, and Kershaw.

But I'll leave you with this. I'd take Hyun Jin Ryu over Warren Spahn any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

If one makes an appeal to their own authority, self-granted and thus unquestionable, one need not support anything they say with statistics as we do, even though the root of the fallacious appeal to authority is that no one else can discuss statistics.

I'm starting to think this statistical basis that objectively and conclusively proves Spahn is "above average at best" because he played in the old days and his exact contemporary Koufax is the GOAT, is a complete fiction. Maybe I'm a bit of a cynic, but not a single shred of evidence has been produced to support this stunning claim to total authority. I'd love for it to check out so we can immediately resolve all baseball discussions with this new oracle.

You're a data analyst. I'm sure you could at least figure out the differences between Koufax and Spahn. Surely, you don't need my help with that one like you probably did with your math homework in high school.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You're a data analyst. I'm sure you could at least figure out the differences between Koufax and Spahn. Surely, you don't need my help with that one like you probably did with your math homework in high school.

The differences are one provided more than double the value over his career, with a less great peak. You have nothing but appeals to authority and ad hominems. You've done nothing to support any real argument, only insisted you are the arbiter of truth and don't have to provide any evidence or even a coherent argument to support your claim. I might be an idiot, but you're the one offering nothing but elementary fallacies. My stupidity, which we will take for granted, does not make you right, it does not make your absurd fallacies any less absurd.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't have the time to write the algorithm necessary to calculate it right now. But I've done A LOT (well in excess of 1,000 hours worth of coding) on similar baseball problems to estimate the value of pitchers and hitters for the purposes of "gambling" on baseball over the past 10 years. We'd have to agree on a definition of "better" first. Then I'd need to control for the parks they pitched in, the changes in mound heights, the expansion and contraction of the strike zones they were subject to, the defensive capabilities of their teammates, the speed of the hitters they faced, and the hitting talent they faced. I don't have the time for that, so I say I don't know who was better between Koufax, Randy, and Kershaw.

But I'll leave you with this. I'd take Hyun Jin Ryu over Warren Spahn any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Do you have time to respond to my discussion on the WS statistics for Koufax and Grove? You keep mentioning Spahn, but the majority on this thread find Grove superior.

[cammb]

I think Koufax has received more accolades from his contemporaries and sportswriters of this time than any pitcher I have read about. His last four years are incredible. The guy was inducted to the Hall at the age of 37!!! If that doesn't sway you, nothing will.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cammb

I think Koufax has received more accolades from his contemporaries and sportswriters of this time than any pitcher I have read about. His last four years are incredible. The guy was inducted to the Hall at the age of 37!!! If that doesn't sway you, nothing will.

I guess I'd appreciate my all-time pitcher to still be pitching at a high level at age 37 instead of having 5 summers of sitting on a shelf, but maybe I'm off base??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I guess I'd appreciate my all-time pitcher to still be pitching at a high level at age 37 instead of having 5 summers of sitting on a shelf, but maybe I'm off base??

LOL he actually retired at 30. And he wasn't very good until he was 25. He had a phenomenal 6 year run (probably better characterized as 5, the first year was only very good) and that was it.

At his zenith, was he as good as anyone? I guess that depends how much weight you put on the disparity between his home and road stats.

But I think there are a lot of externalities that have enhanced his reputation.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I was coming on to point out that people act like Koufax took forever to develop when he was actually incredibly young when he started and stuck on a major league roster because of his bonus baby status, same as his 1954 classmate Harmon Killebrew. Both likely would've benefited by a couple of years in the minors instead of languishing on a major league bench, but both were still a "normal" age when they put it all together.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

A "math-based logically consistent argument" has been provided for exactly zero pitchers thus far in this thread. You guys may as well be picking your favorite Power Ranger. No shame in that though. Some people like pink, others prefer green.

The White Power Ranger was my favorite.

[bnorth]

We are way overdue for a card picture. Anyone know what this Grove card is. It is large and blank back.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by bnorth

We are way overdue for a card picture. Anyone know what this Grove card is. It is large and blank back.

1930 W554, I believe

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by bnorth

We are way overdue for a card picture.

Indeed. FWIW, Koufax has the best smile.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

1930 W554, I believe

Thank you, I was digging through some piles and found it. I believe I got it a few(maybe several) years ago from the Secret Santa we used to do here on Net54.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Snowman

But I'll leave you with this. I'd take Hyun Jin Ryu over Warren Spahn any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Really? You're going to die on that hill? You're taking Ryu over a 13 time 20 game winner, whose JAWS rank him as the 13th greatest pitcher of all time? The Same guy who led the league in complete games seven seasons in a row? Is this a joke?

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Indeed. FWIW, Koufax has the best smile.

I think they all look swell! Thanks for sharing. -- Brian

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by bnorth

We are way overdue for a card picture. Anyone know what this Grove card is. It is large and blank back.

I have always loved that picture of "Old Man Moses" Grove. During his lengthy peak, HE WAS SOMETHING SPECIAL. Then after he blew out his arm and couldn't throw his patented heaters anymore, he marvelously reinvented himself with the Red Sox, and manager Joe Cronin gave him plenty of rest. The result were seasons like 1938 & 1939. When he no longer had enough to go with his brilliant smarts, he hung on for dear life 'til he got that 300th victory he wanted so bad. Still, with all he went through and the belated start to his major league career, 300 wins against only 140 losses!!!!!

There will be no end to this hot stove league argument. For certain, Lefty Grove shown like a beacon in the hitter's most dominating era. He had the benefit of Connie Mack's best teams behind him, which were made only that more unbeatable because of the presence of Lefty Grove.

Sandy Koufax pitched in a pitcher's era, that seemed to become more and more a pitcher's era the better and more dominating Sandy became. Even with the usually anemic-hitting Dodgers of those years, their "smallball" offense was enough to back Sandy. Then again, the '62 Dodgers had career years from Tommy Davis and Maury Wills going for them. Frank Howard couldn't seem to get going in the very spacious Dodger Stadium environs. But I loved Hondo, and he became so good and so adored, during his years with the Senators.

All to say, if I was a manager with the likes of Lefty Grove, Sandy Koufax, and Warren Spahn on my staff, my smile would be as big as the 3 of theirs put together!!!

I know, I'm supposed to continue the arguments and isolate the baseball statistic isotope; I'm getting tired of the whole thing. They were all superb; let's go back to collecting their cards and coins! ---Brian Powell

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cammb

I think Koufax has received more accolades from his contemporaries and sportswriters of this time than any pitcher I have read about. His last four years are incredible. The guy was inducted to the Hall at the age of 37!!! If that doesn't sway you, nothing will.

Koufax is in the majors but not producing much at age 19, which I really wouldn't hold him against as he was developing like most players this age. The bonus baby rule kept him on the roster, as someone else noted.

Koufax became an above average player at 25.

Koufax broke out into a star at age 26 the next year.

Koufax was truly great, from ages 26-30.

He was done at age 30.


Meanwhile:

Grove entered the majors at 25, held hostage in Baltimore. He was not very good that season.

He became a star at age 26, when he led the league in ERA for the first time. The same exact time Koufax did.

Grove was great from ages 26-30.

At this point there careers are very similar, Sandy's years probably slightly greater. Koufax has a 167 ERA+ from 26-30, Grove has a 157. Both are absolutely dominating their leagues. This is the point of comparison in their careers most favorable to Koufax, and he is barely winning.

After age 30, Grove won 6 more ERA crowns, career years in which Koufax was producing absolutely nothing. He went 185-84 with a 150 ERA+ after age 30. He was a truly great pitcher at age 39, above average at 40, done at 41.

I guess if Grove had been sitting at home retired instating of leading the league in ERA 6 times and dominating the AL, he could be the GOAT.

By what rational standard can this, that Sandy's early retirement and his career ending at 30, possibly be a point in favor for Koufax? I don't see a winning argument for Koufax, but there are much, much better arguments than this kind of absurd trolling. Can we not ask ourselves "does this make any sense whatsoever?" before making a claim?


If press headlines and sportswriters are our determining factor, lets see this applied to every player and position. Jeter is the GOAT shortstop, Dimaggio the greatest CF, Jackie the best 2B of all time by a country mile. The most famous is the best.

If it's based on accolades and awards, it's still not Koufax, it's Randy Johnson, 5 time Cy Young winner, 10 time all star, 97.3% Hall of Fame vote receiver (Koufax only got 86.9%), the most decorated lefty in baseball history. This is simply not a point for Koufax if you want to go by the hardware.

If it is based on their peers, players from the 30's thought Grove was the toughest lefty they faced, players in the 60's Koufax, and players in the 00's Johnson. Nobody wins this.

These arguments are silly and even if they weren't, still don't show Koufax as #1.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Spahn won …. wait for it.... 250+ games after age 30 lol. Of course, everyone here knows wins don't matter. And he didn't refuse to pitch on Yom Kippur or (as far as I know) make the cover of LIFE.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Spahn won …. wait for it.... 250+ games after age 30 lol. Of course, everyone here knows wins don't matter. And he didn't refuse to pitch on Yom Kippur or (as far as I know) make the cover of LIFE.

This brings to mind another question. Okay, lets say wins don't matter, they are heavily overrated but let's just completely dismiss them entirely. How many pitchers have 363 or more total decisions but are only "above average, at best"? Maybe a handful at most.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

This brings to mind another question. Okay, lets say wins don't matter, they are heavily overrated but let's just completely dismiss them entirely. How many pitchers have 363 or more total decisions but are only "above average, at best"? Maybe a handful at most.

To be sure, in a short stretch, pitchers can win games without being very good and lose games while being outstanding. But over a long period of time, it being baseball, these things I think tend to average out. So wins at least in the complete game era end up being at least a decent proxy for a combination of longevity and quality even if other metrics are even better.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To be sure, in a short stretch, pitchers can win games without being very good and lose games while being outstanding. But over a long period of time, it being baseball, these things I think tend to average out. So wins at least in the complete game era end up being at least a decent proxy for a combination of longevity and quality even if other metrics are even better.

Personally, I agree. I think wins are a pretty decent stat in the complete game era, not as good as many others or ERA, but hardly without value. In today's game, I think the win is a nearly meaningless statistic.

nobody won 300 games without being an excellent pitcher. No one won 200 games without being pretty darn good. There's some edge cases of good pitchers on bad teams having a bad record (Bob Friend stands out off the top of my mind), but a pitcher with a lot of wins correlates well to the other value stats.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by G1911

Koufax is in the majors but not producing much at age 19, which I really wouldn't hold him against as he was developing like most players this age. The bonus baby rule kept him on the roster, as someone else noted.

Koufax became an above average player at 25.

Koufax broke out into a star at age 26 the next year.

Koufax was truly great, from ages 26-30.

He was done at age 30.


Meanwhile:

Grove entered the majors at 25, held hostage in Baltimore. He was not very good that season.

He became a star at age 26, when he led the league in ERA for the first time. The same exact time Koufax did.

Grove was great from ages 26-30.

At this point there careers are very similar, Sandy's years probably slightly greater. Koufax has a 167 ERA+ from 26-30, Grove has a 157. Both are absolutely dominating their leagues. This is the point of comparison in their careers most favorable to Koufax, and he is barely winning.

After age 30, Grove won 6 more ERA crowns, career years in which Koufax was producing absolutely nothing. He went 185-84 with a 150 ERA+ after age 30. He was a truly great pitcher at age 39, above average at 40, done at 41.

I guess if Grove had been sitting at home retired instating of leading the league in ERA 6 times and dominating the AL, he could be the GOAT.

By what rational standard can this, that Sandy's early retirement and his career ending at 30, possibly be a point in favor for Koufax? I don't see a winning argument for Koufax, but there are much, much better arguments than this kind of absurd trolling. Can we not ask ourselves "does this make any sense whatsoever?" before making a claim?


If press headlines and sportswriters are our determining factor, lets see this applied to every player and position. Jeter is the GOAT shortstop, Dimaggio the greatest CF, Jackie the best 2B of all time by a country mile. The most famous is the best.

If it's based on accolades and awards, it's still not Koufax, it's Randy Johnson, 5 time Cy Young winner, 10 time all star, 97.3% Hall of Fame vote receiver (Koufax only got 86.9%), the most decorated lefty in baseball history. This is simply not a point for Koufax if you want to go by the hardware.

If it is based on their peers, players from the 30's thought Grove was the toughest lefty they faced, players in the 60's Koufax, and players in the 00's Johnson. Nobody wins this.

These arguments are silly and even if they weren't, still don't show Koufax as #1.

Well since you declared these arguments to be silly, I guess we will not hear from you again.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cammb

Well since you declared these arguments to be silly, I guess we will not hear from you again.

…I don’t think you read that right…

[5-Tool Player]

Warren Spann