Beware Carterscards2006

[tiger8mush]

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

+1

[edhans]

As Barry said earlier, sellers need to stand behind their product. Many sellers, including some prominent auction houses, like to hide behind third party graders. This auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was authentic and unaltered. If Todd fulfils that burden of proof that the card is trimmed, he is entitled to a refund. All of the other stuff about GAI and SGC, -4 or -5 and cracked or not cracked is irrelevant.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by edhans

As Barry said earlier, sellers need to stand behind their product. Many sellers, including some prominent auction houses, like to hide behind third party graders. This auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was authentic and unaltered. If Todd fulfils that burden of proof that the card is trimmed, he is entitled to a refund. All of the other stuff about GAI and SGC, -4 or -5 and cracked or not cracked is irrelevant.

I disagree about the cracked and not cracked out part. Who is to say someone can't crack out a card and replace it with a trimmed example? This is getting a bit off topic, but if I buy a card slabbed and crack it out I am doing that knowing that there is no chance I am going to get a refund.

[edhans]

Obviously Todd would have to prove that the card he purchased was altered. Clearly this would be more difficult if the card were cracked out.

[Ease]

(Donning flame-retardant suit...) IMO, advanced collectors know high$ GAI is risky. OP is obviously an advanced collector and knows this, took a chance, and got burned. Have the minerals to take it like a man.

[glchen]

If the card has been cracked out of the slabbed, no return should be allowed. If the card has not been cracked out, the seller should in, good faith, accept the return on the card. Typical ebay sellers typically do not accept returns on graded cards for PSA, SGC, GAI, or Beckett. I don't think this seller is out of bounds here. I purchased a GAI card from Heritage Auctions last year. I tried to cross the card to both PSA and SGC at 1/2 grade lower than the card. The card did not cross. That's life, I took a gamble and have to live with the consequences. Saying that, I really don't think the card has been cracked out of the slab. SGC or PSA would not crack the card out of the slab unless it met the crossover grade. If they crack out the card, that means it met the minimum grade. That's the whole point of crossovers, so that submitters won't get burned if the card does not meeting minimum grade. The TPG would only crack the card if the submitter put Authentic as the crossover grade. Therefore, I think the card is still in the slab, and if Todd discusses with carterscards, they should take the card back. I've purchased cards from carterscards before, and have never had a problem with them. I've asked questions for them, and they've been fairly prompt in coming back with answers. I think they're an honest seller for the most part, as compared to the other ebay sellers out there. In a way, I think they're just a "mass clearinghouse." I saw that they once listed Babe Ruth cards that were obvious reprints. It was something like Reach and Spalding Ruths or something (and not the Spalding Champions). These are the cards that dishonest sellers often list. I sent them a question and asked why'd they'd risk their reputation by listing these kinds of cards when their other stock were fairly high quality. The seller responded to me quickly and what he said was:

"I got these cards in a large deal. To be honest, I know very little about them. I know they are not worth big money but I honestly did not know what to do with them. I guess the best way to answer your question is you kind of get what you get with these things. I know there are collectors so that is the ONLY reason I listed them. Thanks so much for the question and have a great day!!!"

Not really the best answer, but that's how some sellers are.

In regards to the shilling, it definitely does look very suspicious. Shilling is huge problem on ebay and probably even other auctions. I'm not going to say that instance pointed out is not shilling, but some buyers have favorite sellers. They look at those sellers more often, and then bid on them more often which is why they have skewed percentages. Saying that, that case pointed out looks very, very bad.

[pwilk17]

Carters has 2996 positive feedback (quite an achievement in itself on ebay these days where one guy who pays $2 for a card leaves negative feedback because the post office got it to him in 4 days instead of 3), does absolutely nothing wrong and is now going to get first negative feedback for this - what a shame

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

Carters has 2996 positive feedback (quite an achievement in itself on ebay these days where one guy who pays $2 for a card leaves negative feedback because the post office got it to him in 4 days instead of 3), does absolutely nothing wrong and is now going to get first negative feedback for this - what a shame

Did you read the posts where it points out that he shill bids his own auctions? I'll withhold my own sympathy for someone who deserves it.


Bill

[cozmokramer]

Forget about the seller... maybe GAI should just buy the card back for what it sold for and remove it from circulation in its current holder?

[vintagecpa]

A seller is responsible for the card they sell.....period. If I sell an altered card that is already slabbed, it is my responsibility to fight the grading company, not the poor sap that bought it from me.

Also, stating you don't accept returns holds about as much legal weight as putting a sign on your front porch stating "Not responsible for accidents". The bottom line is you are responsible regardless of any sign you post.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by cozmokramer

Forget about the seller... maybe GAI should just buy the card back for what it sold for and remove it from circulation in its current holder?

Does GAI have enough money to do that?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Does GAI have enough money to do that?

I believe the GAI that graded that card no longer exists as a corporate entity. There is a company out there, using the initials GAI, and Mike Baker is in charge, but I believe it's actually a different name on the corp.

[edhans]

I think the auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was a GAI 7.5. Which it was.

So sellers now have the right to knowingly sell fake or altered cards that mistakenly end up in TPG holders? I think not. If the seller sold an altered card without adequate disclosure, he is liable for damages. It is irrelevant what any grading service's opinion is. The seller did not disclose that the card wasn't in it's original state. That seems like a material breach of contract to me.

[carrigansghost]

Now Ed, you know that the seller knew this was altered? Let us stick to the facts known. I have a sign onmy door that states,"Never mind the dog, he's cool, the owner will be pissed" and I will back it up 100%.

Rawn

[pgellis]

Who says that the SGC grader is correct here? There is an assumption that SGC did not take it out of the holder (which is still not 100% verified yet), so who's to say that they are correct? Are they right all the time? Especially looking at a card inside a holder?

A lot of people are assuming SGC is always right. I know they have a much better image, but I wonder what PSA would say.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by edhans

As Barry said earlier, sellers need to stand behind their product. Many sellers, including some prominent auction houses, like to hide behind third party graders. This auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was authentic and unaltered. If Todd fulfils that burden of proof that the card is trimmed, he is entitled to a refund. All of the other stuff about GAI and SGC, -4 or -5 and cracked or not cracked is irrelevant.

I think the auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was a GAI 7.5. Which it was.

[mdschulze]

the phrase, "the customer is always right" holds true in 98% of situations like these. Since the card is still in the slab and the buyer hasn't damaged the item, this case should be no exception. As a seller, you want the customer to be happy with their purchase so they will be repeat buyers and/or advertise for you by word of mouth, thus increasing your sales. The seller should just the refund, eat a couple of bucks for shipping, then just relist the card.... everyone wins.

[Chesbro41]

I bought this Pennock from the seller a couple weeks ago. I bought it to help me finish a subset and not the grade (I think it's at best a 50 or 40 SGC). But yeah... hope it's not trimmed. I'll cross it someday and find out.

This is the only GAI card I own because they are such a gamble.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

For those that are on the buyer's side, can someone answer Rob's question from above?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by pgellis

For those that are on the buyer's side, can someone answer Rob's question from above?

I think it depends on the auctions terms and conditions. I haven't checked too many card auctions because most stuff in the major auctions is outside my budget.

But I get stamp auction catalogs, and they always have a full page of fine print.
Usually if you want to send something off for certification (The stamp version of slabbing more like a COA) They want that stated up front and in writing, and a certain period of time is allowed for that process. And it's all spelled out in detail.

There have been items that were certified years ago that won't pass today because the knowledge of those types of items has increased. On most expensive stuff it's advisable to get a fresh certificate. I've seen a couple that came with 3 or more certificates some dating back to the 60's.
And if a high value item won't pass certification the auction house usually makes good on it anyway.

Steve B

[edhans]

Rawn,
Please re-read my posts. I never said that the seller knew the card was trimmed. It could have been an oversight. Or perhaps the seller, like so many other sellers, simply accepted the TPG's opinion and didn't bother to examine the card closely. It doesn't matter. If it turns out that it was altered, the seller should be responsible, regardless of what holder it was in.

Ed

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

anyone?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

anyone?

The answer is no. You'd then return it to SGC(assuming it's still holdered), and get your money from them. From the SGC website.

"The SGC Guarantee

SGC Guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein."

[pwilk17]

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

Well, that's where this gets tough, because GAI won't be doing anything at this point. Anyways, I'm pretty sure PRO wouldn't notice that it's trimmed, I think they'd just cross over. But let's be serious, who's gonna cross over a card to PRO? Let's just forget about PRO all-together.

PSA also has a financial guarantee.

"The PSA Financial Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder.

PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails our authenticity standards, PSA will buy the card back from the submitter at the current market value. The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on SMR values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace. PSA has sole discretion in regards to the buyback price."

HOWEVER, I've noticed that none of these companies seem to mention anything about another company deeming their cards unworthy of the given grade. At that point, it would be in the best interest to send back the still holdered card, along with the report from the second grading company to show PSA or SGC what was found, and then let them make the call from there.

Now as far as GAI goes... I believe Baker bought the old company and re-branded it, rather than starting a brand new company. Assuming that's the case, it should put him on the hook for any original GAI assets and/or screw ups.

[pwilk17]

That is why I say - No Return - Todd bought the card in a GAI slab. Todd was relying on GAI's opinion that the card was not trimmed. He cannot now say it is trimmed because SGC said it is so. Todd is now deciding that the card is trimmed based on what - because SGC says it is so? or in his own opinion it is? So what? SGC and Todd are not the masters of the universe. If Todd bought the card in a SGC slab and then PRO (I am using PRO to make a point) says it is trimmed - does Todd now believe he has sufficient proof to get a refund or to have SGC pay him the difference - SGC would say PRO is full of something and not pay Todd the difference. Todd bought the card in a GAI slab - case closed.

[edhans]

Lee,
It was a mid to low grade group of T205s. It was sometime last fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger8mush View Post
So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?
anyone?

The answer is yes. If the card is trimmed, the holder and any warranties, guaranties or disclaimers are irrelevant. The seller is responsible for the product he sells. The product under warranty is the card. The holder is merely one man's opinion of the authenticity, originality and grade of the card. Errors can, and have, been made. Sellers cannot hide behind grading company's mistakes. It's the duty of the seller to make the buyer whole and pursue any claim he may have against the grading company.

In the case of the 57 Banks, Tony listed the card as a PSA 7. By not expressly disclaiming that grade, he warranted that it was in near mint condition. If David could prove that the card wasn't in near mint condition, he is entitled to a refund. As a practical matter, that burden of proof would be exponentially more difficult than a trimmed vs 7.5. Another TPG's rating of EM6 would probably not be sufficient proof in this case.

[lharri3600]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

And The Band Played on!!

[Jlighter]

I REALLY don't feel like reading all this, but with over 500 posts there has to be something decent. Could someone please sum it up.

[itslarry]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

I REALLY don't feel like reading all this, but with over 500 posts there has to be something decent. Could someone please sum it up.

well, after reading the first 20pgs so far,
http://www.bash.org/?23396

seems to some it up, except moAr angry

[Edwolf1963]

Very interesting read! I keep going back to simple communication being the root of many problems.

The opinions of who knew what and what Carters does/does not have to do are all subject to opinion and debate. To me, it all goes back to the fact that Carters has not responded to Todd in any way. Back to Johnny's point, the silence, ignoring, hope you'll go away stuff says more to me about this situation and Carters than anything else. That doesn't help anyone or anything - it's the root cause of this issue.

Seriously, would this thread even be here if Carters were to have responded to Todd? Picked up the phone, tried to work out some sort of mutually acceptable solution? And at the end of the day if the buyer is unhappy, then make him happy - resolve the situation and give him his money back!

Is it really worth it to hang on to Todd's money and wait and see what kind of vengence he can bring? Especially since they know they'll lose anyway (it is true that "all sales final", "no refunds", etc means nothing to eBay - if he sends the card back in same case/same condition .. and SGC won't crack unless you tell them to .. Todd will win whether or not you/me/Carters agrees with it) - so why ignore him - what will that get you..??

And wouldn't we all want to do business with someone who stands behind what they sell? Will be there to at least be respectful, listen and respond if I have a question/need? Treat me as a customer as they would want to be treated in kind? To me, that's what it all comes down to. I realize there are extreme circumstances (abuse, unreasonable demands, disrespectful behavior, etc) - but for most of us, the times when a customer is unhappy and wants an exception is rare - so why not step up and resolve the situation?

One thing out of all this is that I know I will avoid Carters .. not because of opinions on who's right, whether or not they knew the card was trimmed or shill accusations, etc. .. but because they haven't at least responded to Todd. Disrespectful and says a lot about them/the kind of business they run.

[pwilk17]

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!

+1

[pgellis]

A lot of people are assuming that Carter's knew that the card was trimmed when they sold it. How can someone come to this conclusion? It was in a legitimate TPG case. You can say all you want about GAI, but if I buy a card in a GAI case with a numerical grade, I assume that it is not trimmed. That is what Carter's did (I assume) in this case. Then when they sell it, they are selling it as a card that has passed GAI's specifications. They are not selling a card that has passed SGC's specs.

Some people are saying that "the customer is always right" and that a business owner should always refund a customer his money when asked, for any reason. That is from the mouths of people who have never been in business for themselves. Try running a business like that and see how long you stay in business. Of course you want to have a good reputation in business and don't want disgruntled customers, but it is a balancing act between good customers and customers who feel that they deserve everything.

The OP has done enough damage on this forum to Carters already and smeared his name on here enough that some members will not deal with them. I find it funny that this is the first negative incident with this dealer that has 3000 positive feedback. They seem to make most everyone else that they deal with happy.

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!

But that's beside the point - didn't I express that above..?! Who knows, who cares - we can debate that one for eternity. I don't disagree w/you, but that's not the point. The customer is unhappy (for whatever reason) - requests a refund - seller does not at least consider/respond = issue. How do I resolve the issue?

Not about who's right or wrong (IMO), it's about how can I be reasonable and respond, work with, try an find some solution that I can live with and keep my customer happy. I'd rather manage my reputation proactively and have Todd post something (here, Google, Yelp, etc) about buying from me w/confidence and why as opposed to this!