"The Monster" is the name I gave T206

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Posted By: leon

Thanks Mark...I am an ass....but an equal opportunity one .....I am sure many disagree with the way this board is run but it's consistent and fair, imho. For the record I understand that others might know someone and that is fine...but I am the one that gets the emails about "who is that person?"........best regards

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Posted By: Dave F

Exactly Leon. Sending emails now on who Andy, Al, and Peter are.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

By the late 1970's when Bill was composing his book, every major 19th and 20th Century BB card set was quite
well defined....except for the Old Judge's (N172) and the T206 set. And, with that perspective in mind, perhaps
the N172's should have been referred to as "Monster 1"; and, the T206....."Monster 2". In any event, when Bill's
book was published in 1980, by his own admission as stated in his book, there were still many unsolved mysteries
regarding the T206's. The one known certainty was there were 523 different FRONT pictured cards. Collectors
wondered....were there 15 different subsets, as a function of the T-brands on their backs ? However, if so, why
were all 523 FRONTS not represented on all the 15 T-brands ? And, many, many more unexplainable questions
regarding the T206's.

For example, only 6 Subjects with Red HINDU backs were known in the 1970's; and, with this back being rare, it
was another mystery. We now live in an amazing "information age", thanks to the Internet and PC's. Back in the
1970's the Internet was not accessible to the public and PC's were still in their infancy.

And, as Barry S already said, MONEY was not the reason back then for referring to the T206 set as "The Monster".
It was the sheer complexity of these cards due to their FRONT/BACK permutations and the continuing realization
that new combinations were still surfacing....no wonder Bill titled his book "The Monster".

Furthermore, just 1 year after Bill's book was available, a 524th card surfaced....the Joe Doyle error.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

Who's this "LEON" Character?

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Brian

Mark, please submit your DNA sample by days end...

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Posted By: Bill Heitman

In order. Ted--GREAT WORK. Frank--I think it takes more than 5000 to really slay the monster. Steve Murray--Don't think I've ever met you--I'd much prefer if people would just place their bids on eBay items and stop sending emails asking that listings be ended. Jason L--I thought my context was clear, but it was very late. Matt--thanks. BarrySloate--Another accurate description. DanBretta--What's bogus in a name? csmoking--there's one right around the corner. Jay--I've never seen one auction house list over 5000 T206's for sale--that would be a "set". DanBretta--yes, it's me. Jodi Birkholm--sounds like a deal I made in the '70's. Steve Murray--both addresses are me and the pleasure has been mine. Aaron Conyers--Thanks so much for your emails--yes, that's me. Ted--Yes, it's me. Mark--?? dstudeba--yes, it's me. Nelson--and your point? Aaron Conyers--that was my point. Matt--And I appreciate it. Steve Murray--Attention is not what I'm looking for. Aaron Conyers--I agree, but see my response to Steve Murray. tbob--Thank you very much--I've enjoyed our dealings. Dan Bretta--I've never been called a Troll before. BarrySloate--I have no hostility toward you at all--in fact, I think you are a great collector. Jim F--Sorry, now I'm classless. Rob D--It is copyrighted. Steve Murray--Bonds played left field, not me. BarrySloate--I repeat the above. rob--I'm in the same position as you. Frank Wakefield--I just hope the little book helped some. BarrySloate--Nothing was meant to be negative. Rob D--nothing was meant that way. Jay--Money isn't the clue to completing the over 5000 different T206's, it just can't be done. Jason L--I wish I hadn't started it--though it was simple, but apparently it wasn't. Aaron Patton--For dinner maybe. barrysloate--that's the point. Matt--I do, too. Wesley--E102 is a great set. Peter Ullman--Sorry for that translation--again, I really wish people would just place their bids--when you have 10 people making offers it's very hard to please them all. Mark Hellman--The pictures very clearly show the qualifiers--am I the only person sho looks at the pictures? A crook, you say. Al C.risafulli--I guess you second the nickname crook--thanks a lot. Ted Zanidakis--the book was an attempt to state a theory--and it's held pretty well for the last 30 years. Denny Walsh--he's a hell of a guy. Over and out. Sorry to have interrupted.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Nope, we have never met. Nope, I have never asked you to end and auction early. Yep, Ive placed very strong bids on your auctions only to have the auctions ended early much to my disappointment. Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice shame on me. It ain't gonna happen.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

For the record Bill I did not call you a troll...I mentioned that your posts were out of the ordinary for you and figured someone was impersonating you. I'm still not sure what set you off here, but your posts this morning seemed to have some hostility behind them.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bill- you need to start drinking decaffeinated coffee!

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Posted By: Bill Heitman

We're obviously not going to agree on what, in fact, being "screwed" is. I'm sorry you were disaapointed and I certainly respect your views on ending listings early. I really do wish people would just place their bids and stop asking that listings be ended early. I've lost quite a few items to early endings and I didn't like it at all. But it is within the rules and people do have different views on it.

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Posted By: Bill Heitman

Dan Bretta--Please read my last post on barrysloate's auction thread. There is no hostility.

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Posted By: Mark Hellman

Leon - no offense taken; it must be tough moderating a board.

From Bill H: "Mark Hellman--The pictures very clearly show the qualifiers--am I the only person sho looks at the pictures? A crook, you say."

Scans don't always load on some computers - if you're going to describe a card as PSA 8, would it be too much of a stretch to list it as PSA 8(MC) if that is the case? And, if the extra three key strokes are just unfathomable to you, is it good form to IGNORE the email of a buyer who told you he couldn't load the scan and therefore depended upon your description of the grade?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Bill, you may not have intended any hostility in your posts, but I stand by my statement that the three postings you made this morning were unusual for you and I'm not the only one that felt they came across as hostile.

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Posted By: DaveL

The Green Monster!

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Posted By: Jeff O

Actually Bill, ending auctions early for the purpose of selling a listed item to someone offline in an effort to avoid paying eBay its fees is not within the rules. In fact, it's a clear violation of the contract you enter when you list an item, and those rules are posted on their site.

Just because it is technically possible to do so does not make it ethical.

I'm tired of people justifying this practice. If you want to do it, man up and admit that you're breaking the rules and your contract with eBay in an effort to screw them out of their fees - fees they should be entitled to for providing a venue for your item to achieve visibility. I've heard all the excuses before, and they just don't hold water.

Jeff

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Jeff,

I agree that ending ebay auctions early is lame and a horrible business practice unless you're trying to alienate potential bidders/customers, but screwing ebay is an accomplishment that should be applauded, not condemned! Legal or not.

I doubt most of us are shedding tears because big bad Bill is being unfair to little miss ebay who is so pure and innocent.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Jeff O

Ryan, it sounds like you think that voluntarily entering a contract, then intentionally breeching it for the purpose of your own financial gain and at the expense of the other party is to be applauded, at least if that other party is eBay. My question would be where do you draw the line? If it's OK to take advantage of (essentially defraud) eBay, then who else is it OK to do this to?

I'm not here to defend eBay's business practices. A lot of what they do is stupid, IMO, and a lot of times they cater to their "biggest" customers at the expense of the rest of us. They also are the biggest game in town - a near monopoly, to be frank, which makes them easy to dislike - and also easier to justify doing things to them that you wouldn't dream of doing t the neighborhood small business. However, as sellers we make a conscious choice to do business with them and agree to their terms. We do so because eBay can bring us more potential customers, for the most part, than any other method.

Use them or don't. It doesn't matter to me. Just take ownership for your actions. That's all I ask.

Jeff

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

GEE....with all this negativity going on here, it's no wonder you don't post on this forum too often. So, now it's time
to have some meaningful discussion.

1st....In 30 years of collecting T206's I've looked at approx. 50,000 cards. And, you have probably looked at a Million.
Why wasn't any Joe Doyle error cards discovered before 1981 ? In my mind, this mystery defies normal probability.

My understanding is that only 6 legitimate Doyle's exist in collections. We speculate that the scarcity of this card was
due to some fast acting Quality Control at American Lithographic in catching this error in the initial 350 Series press run.
I'm curious what your thoughts are regarding this mystery ?


2nd....Arguably, the Red Cobb is the most plentiful T206 Subject (this card has been confirmed with 24 different backs).
Yet, I cannot find a Red Cobb with a SOVEREIGN 460 back. Two of these cards have been confirmed. However, I have
not seen one in many years of searching. This particular Cobb appears to be scarcer than the Ty Cobb back version ? ?

Regards,

TED Z

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Posted By: JimCrandell

How about slaying the monster in PSA 8 or better. Hall of Fame collector Don Louchios in what has to be the best T206 set ever asasembled stands 99.62% complete including the Wagner and other rarities with an average grade of 8.15 Wow!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- what is the average grade of Don's set? Think you plugged in the wrong number.

And I would guess even someone with limitless funds could not duplicate his set today.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Barry--you are right--its 8.15.

I traded Don about $100,000 worth of T206s including a PSA 9 Tinker and some very low pop 8s a couple of years back for about a dozen 33 Goudey Sport Kings in PSA 8 including Cobb, Ruth, Jones.

I don't think that set could be duplicated today. I wonder if Don has a Wagner.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

"Ryan, it sounds like you think that voluntarily entering a contract, then intentionally breeching it for the purpose of your own financial gain and at the expense of the other party is to be applauded, at least if that other party is eBay."

Yes, Jeff, that's exactly what I think. Did you think by framing it as breech of contract I would see the folly of my ways and suddenly realize what a truly reprehensible action it was that I suggested something like that should be applauded?
---------------------

"My question would be where do you draw the line? If it's OK to take advantage of (essentially defraud) eBay, then who else is it OK to do this to?"

Would you like a list? How about SCP/Sotheby's, for example? Or pick any other slimy company who makes money by ripping people off. Just be sure to pick an actual slimy company of scumbags instead of the ethical juggernaut we know SCP/Sotheby's to be. We already know they would never "take advantage of" or "essentially defraud" anyone. So pick Microsoft or Wal-Mart or Halliburton or whoever it's trendiest to hate. It's not a slippery slope. There are no gray areas with what I'm talking about. I'm not saying it's okay to go murder Bill Gates or rob your local Wal-Mart. I'm saying that people or companies who screw people deserve to taste their own medicine sometimes. I'm not going to dispense this justice myself, but I'm absolutely fine with it happening. I would certainly never encourage someone to engage in anything illegal, but it's worth noting that if you or anyone else were to "take advantage" of SCP/Sotheby's, (as a totally random example) for instance, I'm pretty sure it would mean that somewhere far, far away, an angel gets their wings.
---------------------

"I'm not here to defend eBay's business practices."

That might not be why you're here in a metaphysical or ontological sense, Jeff, but that's certainly why you're here in this thread. It's Bill's unethical breech of contract that seems to bother you. Not his ending auction early. Or even better, it's his inability to take ownership of this action that really gets you. So let's say Bill ended the auction early (which is the part that most of us have the issue with) and then set up a buy-it-now for the bidder to do at whatever price they agreed upon. If the transaction still went through ebay so that ebay still got their cut and would be able to feed their children for at least one more night, would you still be here sticking up for all the poor and underprivileged corporate monopolies who can't stick up for themselves?

As noble as the charitable work you do on behalf of ebay might be, I don't think you would have even posted if your breech-of-contract radar hadn't gone off. The point of your initial post was to scold Bill for bullying ebay and But just because you believe in and follow the rules, that doesn't make it ethical, either. I guess it's all just a matter of opinion. Some might consider it unethical to come to the defense of a giant monopoly who'd been denied the opportunity to be paid a few dollars on a single tiny transaction. Others might consider such behavior the very model of ethics in the modern world.

-Ryan

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Barry- jim is certainly correct...

Don Loucios has, without question, the most amazing T206 set. ALL PSA 8's & 9's...i do not think however, that he has a wagner...

Jim- you have an impressive collection of T206's, but it looks like you have not added a new card to it in 2 years+...are you planning on adding to it?

best-
MS

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Boys, nothing personal, but the word is "breach" not "breech".

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Michael,

I have about 150 8s with a small number of 9s. I traded some to Don and then selectively sold some at the high prices that low pop commons were going for a year or two back.

My focus is to finish sets in PSA 8 or better(currently at 68) so although I like the T206's it is on hold while I strive to complete some of my other sets.

Jim

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Jim- i understand...are you considering selling some or all of your T206's, since it is virtually impossible to complete in PSA 8 or better?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Michael- how close could one theoretically come to getting all 524 cards in at least 8? We know that Wagner, Plank, and Demmitt exist in 8. Doyle doesn't, and I've never heard of O'Hara or Magie (I'm not checking pop reports as I do this). And I assume every other card has at least one known example.

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Posted By: Steve

yeah who is that trouble maker Mark guy?

(eyeroll)


Steve

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"And I assume every other card has at least one known example."

absolutely NOT Barry...

check the POP Report...there are MANY cards that do not have 8's, some even do not have 7's...

what Don L. has assembled is astonishing...

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Posted By: barrysloate

So Michael- there are relatively common cards in the set that are not known above 6?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Michael

Absolutely--maybe the most impressive set on the Registry although Charlie's 52 Topps set ranks up there too.

I would sell commons from T206 at former prices--I understand from you and perhaps others they have come down.

Jim

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Posted By: MVSNYC

correct Barry...

i'd have to check the POP report, but when i was in the "POP" game a year or two ago, there were some really tuff cards (mostly commons), that did not exist in 7's or 8's (Don has many 1/1 pieces)...

i know it is possible that some have been since submitted and graded, but i think it's still safe to say that you should NOT assume every card exists in an 8.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

A quick run through PSA's pop report(not guaranteeing this info) is while there are a fair number of pop 1s in PSA 8 or better, there are only 8 which do not exist in PSA 8 or better.

Bill O'Hare-St. Louis
Frank Smith-Chicago and Boston
Heinie Zimmerman
Jack Knight
Sherry Magie
Solly Hoffman
Spike Shannon
Tony Thebo

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Posted By: Cobby33

There is NOTHING that prohibtis ending auctions early. If there was, eBay wouldn't allow it. Although I have not seen such a rule, eBay would only admonish it if it was a way to get out of their fees- which are a complete ripoff anyway.

As a seller who does NOT try to skirt eBay fees, I can tell you that I can't necessarily fault those who do, as eBay, for what they charge, offer their sellers (i.e. income generators) NO support from deadbit bidders, or any other frauds.

Having said that, I am substantially certain that sellers do NOT end auctions early to avoid fees. They end them because they are given offers they cannot refuse and who can blame them. As a buyer, does it suck? Yes- I've been on that wrong end of it many times. But, as they say, it is what it is and if there is a card that you "HAVE TO" have, you may as well see what it would take to end it early before someone else does. It may not seem "right," but that's how it goes.

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Posted By: Mark Hellman

I'm no fan of paying fees, but IMHO there's never been a cheaper way to sell cards than ebay. Basically you're looking at 35c to put your card in front of the world for a week. Before ebay, you had to take out an ad somewhere that would generally cost a hundred times that and more. I'm not an expert on fees, but what is the seller's fee - 3%? Compared to 25% for Mastro?

Like any other business, they aren't going to please everybody all the time, and, when screw ups happen, it is understandably frustrating. No argument there. But I don't see the problem with the fees. To sell cards before ebay meant buying a table for 100 or 200 dollars, taking out an ad in a hobby paper for lord-knows-how-much or opening your own business.

Am I missing something? It just seems too simple. There must be something I'm missing, but I don't know what.

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Posted By: Frank B

If EBay fees are "a complete ripoff" what does that make the
auction houses?
There should be a cap on fees per item. The top items in the
REA auction will net the house incredible fees. Does any item
really merit a 5-figure commission?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I agree with Mark and Frank. Everyone complains about ebay but how about a 30% alternative? And it's not like anyone is putting a gun to your head to sell (or buy) on ebay.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I don't necessarily mean that paying eBay (and Paypal) fees are a "ripoff," per se. But what sellers get in return is many times a rip. For what I pay, I do expect something other than a platform, when I pay close to $100 in fees for selling a $1,000 card (opting for a $30 listing fee for example). I would expect actual customer service, as opposed to ignored emails and telephone calls. I would also expect protection from 0-feedback bidders who go on shopping spress, stiffing me and my having to WAIT a week to get a refund/relist.

That is what I am talking about. For what sellers pay, they should be entitled to more than just a platform to sell.

The auction house commissions are many times well worth it. They take the headache out of the transactions, screen bidders and advertise and ship. They also many times take consignments on 0% (or lower) commissions.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Cobby, that's the beauty of the situation: ebay can be avoided very easily if one wants.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Cobby,

Exactly.

In todays world if you have good stuff they pay you to list the card. The better the card the more they will pay--after all they are getting 15-20% on the other end.